To Tank or not to Tank, that is the question

[Latrell]

Im psyched that this season will be a win-win no matter what.

If we are good thats awesome.

If we suck we get a high draft pick and a chance at a great player to add.

The only thing that worries me is that people around here seem to have much too high expectations of DeMar/Sonny/Amir etc...while they'll be good I don't think they'll be as good as people think they will next year...And I really hate to burst some of ya'll bubbles but the steady players this year will be our Euro/Intl guys like Bargs, Kleiza, Barbosa and don't forget Jose. .Demar will still have a lot games where he struggles this year, hopefully he has more flashes of star play .

[Latrell]

I think this year will be much more exciting because we have a lot more young players taking a focal role on our team--and they want to prove their worth. We've seen how much work they put in this offseason, and now it looks like we'll be employing an uptempo style (with a lot more ball movement) that they will thrive under.

.

Honestly, I really really really really really hope Jay isn't going for Nellie ball this year..That would be a fatal mistake...Would it kill us to go the Detroit route for once?

How bout we focus on our defense? We need to slow things down, we don't have the legs or depth or the proper PG to run this uptempo offense crap..

We have great athletes now and guys with good lateral quicks like Demar and Sonney..also brought in Kleiza who may not be a great athlete but he's a pesky defender and basically the anti-Turk. Jack is a solid defender at the PG, Amir and Bargs are lengthy and can block a lot of shots down low. A great defensive coach like Skiles would turn this team into a playoff team easy with this roster.

[Rare]

I hope we're bad. More time to study. If we're good I'd end up watching more games over doing work.

[Brinbe]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can be happy with a bad season. Do you people really think getting a "high draft pick" will make any difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things?

If we do badly, the season will be boring. We'll get a 'high draft pick' who will make a marginal difference at best and we'll be just as boring the following season.

All this talk of 'rebuilding' is just BS. WINNING is the only way to go.

Ah yes... Of course, a high pick absolutely makes a difference. We needed a high draft pick to obtain Vince (traded for Jamison) and draft Bosh and even Bargs.

As far as entertainment goes, we have had boring teams with winning records and exciting teams with awful records, it makes absolutely no difference unless that team is winning 45+ games.

And I'd say all of us aren't "happy" with a bad season, but it's MUCH better than floundering with 30-40 wins every year for eternity. That's the worst outcome of all. As long as we're bad enough to be in contention for an Irving or Knight I'll be happy with this season.

[The Duke]

I'd say that im very content with our seasons outlook.

[Double Helix]

If we do acquire a game-changer in next year's draft it better be a player of high character and loyalty. Otherwise, we might as well just start a giant countdown outside the ACC for when he's going to leave.

We need a Stephen Curry type of kid to be our best player. We need our best player to also just so happen to be one of the higher character kids in the league. So, while many other franchises have the luxury of simply picking the BPA, we have to take the BPA while probing into his past and projecting his desire to play up here long-term. That's not easy but Colangelo seems to be getting better at it.

That's why I'm less anti-Bargs than many of you. He's not a franchise player but he's a solid franchise piece and still relatively young and healthy by center-standards. He's pro-Toronto and somewhat anti-America (Okay, not really but it's not like he's pining to head south the first change he gets either) so I can envision him playing for us as long as we want him to. If we're going to go places we need more of the same from even better players than him.

I agree that we need to suck. I agree that we need more high-end talent. But where I disagree with most people is the notion that the key to us turning this franchise around lies strictly in getting the best talent available; it does not. In Toronto, we need to build a team of high quality players that's lead by a better coach than Triano (Eventually) and a franchise player that also happens to be one of the rare, loyal, nice-guys in the league. We need somebody who doesn't mind playing in cold weather, doesn't mind living in Canada and who loves the spotlight this city provides him within Canada. And as soon as we recognize that kid we need to start moving pieces and bringing in other complimentary young pieces to build around him the right way, whatever those may be.

Durant is the perfect model. I'm sure Curry, to a lesser extent will be too. And if Utah and/or the Hornets were able to build better teams around Deron Williams and Chris Paul maybe we'd be talking about building that way too. Each of these guys is a high character person, despite being a star, so it's possible to get a non-knucklehead as your main guy. You just need to build around them ASAP as soon as they showcase their ability to be a top 5 player at their respective position.

[Sifu]

In an ideal world, not only would the Raptors suck, but so would the Maimi Heat. Here's hoping that all three of the Big Three go down with one injury or another for all of next season, leading to the Raptors getting both the 1st and 2nd overall picks in the next draft. Now that would be awesome.

[Brinbe]

^ Well, at the time, many of those qualities are exactly what we thought we had in Bosh, right? We thought he was a loyal, high character nice-guy, didn't we? And perhaps in his first two-three seasons that's what he was...

So as I see it, the change has to come from within, as in not babying our franchise players (hell, do away with that concept once and for all) and stop letting them dictate too much, as in consultation with roster moves, etc. If they leave (like with Vince/Bosh) it just leaves us in a deep hole. I pray we don't succumb to that with DeMar, although I've seen some early signs, albeit nothing to get worried about at this point.

[Double Helix]

^ Well, at the time, many of those qualities are exactly what we thought we had in Bosh, right? We thought he was a loyal, high character nice-guy, didn't we? And perhaps in his first two-three seasons that's what he was...

So as I see it, the change has to come from within, as in not babying our franchise players (hell, do away with that concept once and for all) and stop letting them dictate too much, as in consultation with roster moves, etc. If they leave (like with Vince/Bosh) it just leaves us in a deep hole. I pray we don't succumb to that with DeMar, although I've seen some early signs, albeit nothing to get worried about at this point.

Bosh certainly did have most of the qualities we'd need again but we'd have to build around him sooner. His first couple years in the league he was surrounded by aging veterans rather than up and coming stars. We didn't fully rebuild around Bosh. We had a bad pick in Joey Graham. We drafted a similar but worse player in Charlie V and then somewhat similarly... drafted another player whose preferred position was PF in Andrea Bargnani. We suffered injury problems and petty PG battles between TJ Ford and Calderon. Instead of all of this, had we been lucky enough to add a player like Brandon Roy somehow or Andre Iguadola (or both) while having a high quality PG and a banger of a center... Who knows? Bosh might still be here. He'd certainly have had more reasons to stay and more good players (and potential friends) pulling at him to stay.

He wasn't able to get it done on his own but few finesse PFs have or can. So, try as we might to deflect our failings on him... it's more a failing of Babcock, Colangelo and just plain old bad luck (injuries, the draft not having enough high end guard talent) than anything else.

Just because we failed to build around a high-character star once doesn't mean we couldn't if given another chance again. As others have said, you need to go the Oklahoma route and make these young guys feel like they're going to be the next big thing in the league. They need to develop friendships with one another and hear people saying things like, "OKC is on the rise." That all comes from having 3-5 (or more) high lottery picks (practically consecutively or multiple high picks in the same draft), not Chris Bosh, a 7th overall pick (CV), a 17th overall pick
(Graham) and a 1st overall pick in one of the worst drafts in recent memory (Andrea). You need to have multiple can't miss prospects and then a bunch of complimentary players with big upside and they all need to be playing together quickly and becoming friends during those crucial rookie-contract impressionable years.

Regarding treatment of stars, Derozan isn't a franchise player... and might not become one so there's currently no need to coddle him. Unfortunately, though word gets around quickly in the NBA and it doesn't take long for a top player to learn what other top players in the game are getting (beyond salary). You can't play hardball with players of that caliber at this level any longer. This isn't the NCAA and even then the Bobby Knight era of college basketball ended at least a decade ago. You play hardball with these kids and these agents now and you lose. And losing the showdown might be something as simple as being asked to politely facilitate a trade out of town. If you play hardball to that you might as well assume you'll never work with that same agency ever again. It's a risk most GMs aren't willing to take.

[Weems]

I wish. I wish we could be terrible, but we can't be terrible. We'll have to settle for extremely bad. And extremely bad doesn't get you anywhere. It's extremely painful.

[Blade_Runner]

Yeah - and lipstick on a pig does not make it look attractive. Liking awfulness may work for a game or two, but during a long stretch of losing you can't cover it up with a few highlight reel plays and anticipate getting picks and players for a year or two down the road. Kinda makes your time on the team meaningless and players don't want 'temporary' as part of their career memories. No one likes losing.

[Weems]

I just said I liked losing.

[raptoradical]

I wish. I wish we could be terrible, but we can't be terrible. We'll have to settle for extremely bad. And extremely bad doesn't get you anywhere. It's extremely painful.

You guys are funny.....like having Bosh would make a world of difference or something. To the wizards with their crystal balls, we've never had a team like this, well not as far as I can remember, so how do you just count a team that has the potential to bring heart and athleticism on a nightly basses out so fast? I'd like to look at us as the dark horse. All we need is like one more trade, make good with the TPE and we have a complete team.

[Weems]

Losing Bosh was excellent. Was last season not extremely painful? This offseason was progress.

[Peteros]

How can you be exciting and terrible at the same time??

[Orsk]

Losing Bosh was excellent. Was last season not extremely painful? This offseason was progress.

I agree. Losing Bosh was a blessing in disguise. Sure, he is a great baller (some may argue that) but come on, part of the reason he was good, is because the team fed him the ball, and everything HAD to go through him! Clearly it wasn't working out, so something had to change. Everyone keeps saying we need to lose to take one step backwards two steps forwards, but wasn't losing Bosh one step backwards, then getting rid of Hedo, and netting our new talent (Barbosa, Kleiza and ED) two steps forward?

Even if this team sucks this year, (which I think people on this board are overestimating) we now have room to grow, and aren't limited by pushing it through Bosh. Either way, I didn't like watching bosh sit with the ball for 15 seconds every time on offence, while everyone else sat around waiting to see what happened, and then come up with some lame excuse when we lose as to how it was not his fault, that's not what I want to watch every night.

[dagger]

Hasheem Thabeet, Dwight Gooden, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, Marvin Wright, Adam Morrison, Darius Miles, Skita and many more top 5 picks who were outright busts or mediocre players say HI!

If we get a top 5 pick, okay, but there is no risk free outcome. So it's best not to cheer to be terrible, but accept it only if it happens.

[MEDIC]

Losing Bosh was excellent. Was last season not extremely painful? This offseason was progress.

I agree. Losing Bosh was a blessing in disguise. Sure, he is a great baller (some may argue that) but come on, part of the reason he was good, is because the team fed him the ball, and everything HAD to go through him! Clearly it wasn't working out, so something had to change. Everyone keeps saying we need to lose to take one step backwards two steps forwards, but wasn't losing Bosh one step backwards, then getting rid of Hedo, and netting our new talent (Barbosa, Kleiza and ED) two steps forward?

Even if this team sucks this year, (which I think people on this board are overestimating) we now have room to grow, and aren't limited by pushing it through Bosh. Either way, I didn't like watching bosh sit with the ball for 15 seconds every time on offence, while everyone else sat around waiting to see what happened, and then come up with some lame excuse when we lose as to how it was not his fault, that's not what I want to watch every night.

Couldn't agree more. The last few years (minus the Garbo year) were painful to watch. I was so sick of "Bosh ball".

[gtswish]

Hasheem Thabeet, Dwight Gooden, Jay Williams, Darko Milicic, Marvin Wright, Adam Morrison, Darius Miles, Skita and many more top 5 picks who were outright busts or mediocre players say HI!

If we get a top 5 pick, okay, but there is no risk free outcome. So it's best not to cheer to be terrible, but accept it only if it happens.

adam morrison got 2 championships... how much do chris paul, lebron & everyone else got ????................................ esactly


lol im jus playin but this year looks like some pretty good players, i Actually think harrison barnes might end up being a bust but Kyrie Irving and Perry Jones look like they can be all stars , i say trade Bargs to minnisota or sac for their first rounder and we get both these players

also jay williams would of been a good player hadnt it been for the accident

jay williams would of been good if he didnt get into the accident.

[Orsk]

There have also been plenty of players who were not top 5 picks who have turned out to be superstars, and LOTS of top 5 picks who haven't.

Top 5 Pick Busts - Just to name a few
Darko Milicic 2nd (2003)
Kwame Brown 1st (2001)
Stromile Swift 2nd (2000)
Jay Williams 2nd (2002)
(some people would add Bargs to this list, but all these guys are much worse)

Draft Steals -
Amare Stoudemire 9th (2002)
Steve Nash - 15th (1996)
Kobe Bryant - 13th (1996)
Rajon Rondo - 21st (2006)

2nd round Steals -
Michael Redd - 2nd round, 43rd (2000)
Gilbert Arenas - 2nd round, 31st (2001)

Can't be bothered naming more, I got sick of typing, but there are many many more in all of these categories,

But I think this shows my point, you can get an amazing player just as easily from a top 10-15 pick, as you can a top 5 (sometimes more likely). All sorts of good players slip for various reasons, players like DD and Ed could be such players (probably not the likes of Nash or Kobe, but still good). Only time will tell....