Is Kobe really an inefficient scorer?

[D Nice]

hes not inefficient .. hes actually pretty efficient if you take into account that he gets to the line often and he makes a couple 3s a game.

Hes just inefficient compared to Jordan , or Lebron/Wade if you wanna compare to current players.
He just has those 5-20 ..6-25 .. type games more often

Wade being more efficient than Kobe is a complete myth.

04: Kobe 24.0 ppg .551 TS%, Wade 16.2 ppg .530 TS%
05: Kobe 27.6 ppg .563 TS%, Wade 24.1 ppg .561 TS%
06: Kobe 35.4 ppg .559 TS%, Wade 27.2 ppg .577 TS%
07: Kobe 31.6 ppg .580 TS%, Wade 27.4 ppg .583 TS%
08: Kobe 28.3 ppg .576 TS%, Wade 24.6 ppg .549 TS%
09: Kobe 26.8 ppg .561 TS%, Wade 30.2 ppg .574 TS%
10: Kobe 27.0 ppg .545 TS%, Wade 26.6 ppg .562 TS%

1.78 A/TO ratio for Wade, 1.64 A/TO for Kobe over that stretch. Lebron has ratcheted his efficiency up the past two seasons a level above what Kobe has achieved, but on lower volume. Before that, his efficiency was in Kobe's ballpark too.

Basic FG% and PER just get overrated.

[mopper8]

^How is it a myth when Wade's TS% is higher in 4 of the last 6 seasons, significantly higher 3 of those times? (one season it was lower being when Wade played injured the entire year, the other it being lower by literally .002)?

That certainly seems to paint the picture of Wade being more efficient, no?

[D Nice]

^How is it a myth when Wade's TS% is higher in 4 of the last 6 seasons, significantly higher 3 of those times? (one season it was lower being when Wade played injured the entire year, the other it being lower by literally .002)?

That certainly seems to paint the picture of Wade being more efficient, no?

Are you looking at the same numbers I am?

04 and 05 Kobe win volume and efficiency
06 Kobe wins volume handily, loses efficiency, but most agree 8ppg >>> .018 TS%
07 Kobe wins volume handily on even efficiency
08 Kobe again takes volume and efficiency, both handily
09 Wade wins volume handily and with a decent efficiency advantage
10 Kobe wins volume slightly, Wade efficiency slightly (but here the efficiency gap is bigger)

As I said, it's a myth unless we're talking about an aging, hurt Kobe. Wade probably permanently overtook Kobe last year (by a bit), but people act like he's been blowing Kobe out of the water in efficiency forever, and its untrue. Kobe has the overall volume/efficiency advantage most years.

Wade is the more efficient playmaker though. Higher volume of assists on a better A/TO ratio.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

I think points from the free throw line .. should be accounted for in a players efficiency.

And also, the Heat have played ugly style of basketball the past few years ..half court, slowing it down dragging games out .. there hasnt been too many easy baskets or much space to work with for D. Wade.
expect Wades efficiency to shoot way up now ..

[J08]

Bird is always considered a more efficient scorer then bryant but they have almost identical ts% for their careers and thats counting bryants 1st few seasons in the nba. Bryant also does better then bird in the playoffs.

For a guy that takes so many tough shots hes pretty efficient.
Like others have mentioned alot players were putting up amazing numbers back then.

Anytime theres something that makes bryant look good, jordan fans come out from everywhere and say "excuses for bryant" "kobe homers". Its a basketball forum, share your opinion and leave

[Doctor MJ]

Bird is always considered a more efficient scorer then bryant but they have almost identical ts% for their careers and thats counting bryants 1st few seasons in the nba. Bryant also does better then bird in the playoffs.

For a guy that takes so many tough shots hes pretty efficient.
Like others have mentioned alot players were putting up amazing numbers back then.

Anytime theres something that makes bryant look good, jordan fans come out from everywhere and say "excuses for bryant" "kobe homers". Its a basketball forum, share your opinion and leave

Honestly not sure what the context was for bringing up Bird, so maybe it was warranted.

When you talk about Bird though, the distinction between career and peak is crucial. At the top of his game he was a 30 PPG 60% TS type guy without a tendency to disappoint in the playoffs, which is significantly more impressive than Kobe. Bird's prime starts several years before that and is significantly less impressive as a scorer than prime Kobe.

Re: for a guy who takes so many tough shots he's pretty efficient. Well that's the issue right there. Which then gets in to: Is it necessary for him to take those shots? and Why?

I've watched Kobe for years, and often thought he takes shots he shouldn't - though to be fair, I think that about a lot of guys including the far more efficient LeBron. Still, the fact that lots of guys do it, doesn't make it right.

[D Nice]

Bird is always considered a more efficient scorer then bryant but they have almost identical ts% for their careers and thats counting bryants 1st few seasons in the nba. Bryant also does better then bird in the playoffs.

For a guy that takes so many tough shots hes pretty efficient.
Like others have mentioned alot players were putting up amazing numbers back then.

Anytime theres something that makes bryant look good, jordan fans come out from everywhere and say "excuses for bryant" "kobe homers". Its a basketball forum, share your opinion and leave

Honestly not sure what the context was for bringing up Bird, so maybe it was warranted.

When you talk about Bird though, the distinction between career and peak is crucial. At the top of his game he was a 30 PPG 60% TS type guy without a tendency to disappoint in the playoffs, which is significantly more impressive than Kobe. Bird's prime starts several years before that and is significantly less impressive as a scorer than prime Kobe.

Re: for a guy who takes so many tough shots he's pretty efficient. Well that's the issue right there. Which then gets in to: Is it necessary for him to take those shots? and Why?

I've watched Kobe for years, and often thought he takes shots he shouldn't - though to be fair, I think that about a lot of guys including the far more efficient LeBron. Still, the fact that lots of guys do it, doesn't make it right.

Which is why I hold Bird's offensive peak/prime in higher regard than Kobe, discounting personal biases about the level of defense in general in that era. But would you not agree that in general, Kobe's efficiency or lack there of is incredibly overplayed, particularly against contemporaries.

Reading these forums you would think Kobe was Iverson, but in terms of efficiency/volume he literally beats everyone post-Mj except for Shaq and Lebron. Wade comes the closest, but Kobe gets the slight edge according to my analysis above (yet according to popular sentiment, Wade smashes Kobe there...). McGrady, Iverson, Carter, Anthony, etc all visibly inferior to Kobe.

He's basically not efficient when you compare him to Lebron, Jordan, and Bird from a volume/efficiency standpoint. And even then, it's about a 3-5 TS% difference depending on the player, but usually on less volume than Kobe. Obviously with better shot selection he could be at that level, but as a Laker fan you understand a decent portion of Kobe's tougher shots are more out of offensive necessity (which is why he's taken less since as talent around him has improved). That doesn't make him inefficient.

Not to mention more of Lebron's prime years have come in the no-touch era, and perimeter defense in the 80s is far inferior to perimeter defense over most of Kobe's prime/career (though these aren't factored into my assessment, they definitely bear mention).

[rk755]

I think that some of the perception of someone as inefficient comes more out of "empty trips" than TS% and the like.

To me it seems like Kobe might get more points per made shot or scoring possession, but the percentage of those out of his total shots or possessions is lower than it is for other star wings. Haven't seen a place where you can access that sort of information, but I've seen this stat mentioned briefly in places.

Just from looking at the FG%, you see that Kobe "wasted" 54.4% of his shots last season, as opposed to Wade's 52.4% and LeBron's 49.7%. And at their best, 53.1%, 50.5% and 49.7%, respectively. The fact that a made 3-pointer's worth more than a regular 2-pointer is fine, but a missed shot is a missed shot...

[D Nice]

I think that some of the perception of someone as inefficient comes more out of "empty trips" than TS% and the like.

To me it seems like Kobe might get more points per made shot or scoring possession, but the percentage of those out of his total shots or possessions is lower than it is for other star wings. Haven't seen a place where you can access that sort of information, but I've seen this stat mentioned briefly in places.

Just from looking at the FG%, you see that Kobe "wasted" 54.4% of his shots last season, as opposed to Wade's 52.4% and LeBron's 49.7%. And at their best, 53.1%, 50.5% and 49.7%, respectively. The fact that a made 3-pointer's worth more than a regular 2-pointer is fine, but a missed shot is a missed shot...

I guess perhaps if the number of missed shots was tallied and weighted by scorekeepers while tabulating the final score that point would hold merit...but since they don't...it really doesn't.

[Doctor MJ]

Which is why I hold Bird's offensive peak/prime in higher regard than Kobe, discounting personal biases about the level of defense in general in that era. But would you not agree that in general, Kobe's efficiency or lack there of is incredibly overplayed, particularly against contemporaries.

Reading these forums you would think Kobe was Iverson, but in terms of efficiency/volume he literally beats everyone post-Mj except for Shaq and Lebron. Wade comes the closest, but Kobe gets the slight edge according to my analysis above (yet according to popular sentiment, Wade smashes Kobe there...). McGrady, Iverson, Carter, Anthony, etc all visibly inferior to Kobe.

He's basically not efficient when you compare him to Lebron, Jordan, and Bird from a volume/efficiency standpoint. And even then, it's about a 3-5 TS% difference depending on the player, but usually on less volume than Kobe. Obviously with better shot selection he could be at that level, but as a Laker fan you understand a decent portion of Kobe's tougher shots are more out of offensive necessity (which is why he's taken less since as talent around him has improved). That doesn't make him inefficient.

Not to mention more of Lebron's prime years have come in the no-touch era, and perimeter defense in the 80s is far inferior to perimeter defense over most of Kobe's prime/career (though these aren't factored into my assessment, they definitely bear mention).

Overplayed? Hmm. Well, it's pretty dang uncommon for anyone to compare Kobe unfavorably to the 'visibly inferior' guys. The inefficiency card gets played because Kobe's typically being compared with LeBron, who as you noted, is vastly more efficiency.

With that said, Kobe is more likely to be called inefficient than Wade is despite the fact they tend to be pretty comparable. I'd say the reasons for that, 1) Kobe's more high profile and so gets mentioned more period, 2) there isn't nearly as much a Wade/LeBron debate as a Kobe/LeBron debate, and 3) Wade cemented himself as a superstar with a dominant playoff run during which he was very efficient, and probably more importantly, sealed his default criticism to be "he's only good because of the refs".

[J08]

Bird is always considered a more efficient scorer then bryant but they have almost identical ts% for their careers and thats counting bryants 1st few seasons in the nba. Bryant also does better then bird in the playoffs.

For a guy that takes so many tough shots hes pretty efficient.
Like others have mentioned alot players were putting up amazing numbers back then.

Anytime theres something that makes bryant look good, jordan fans come out from everywhere and say "excuses for bryant" "kobe homers". Its a basketball forum, share your opinion and leave

Honestly not sure what the context was for bringing up Bird, so maybe it was warranted.

When you talk about Bird though, the distinction between career and peak is crucial. At the top of his game he was a 30 PPG 60% TS type guy without a tendency to disappoint in the playoffs, which is significantly more impressive than Kobe. Bird's prime starts several years before that and is
significantly less impressive as a scorer than prime Kobe.

Re: for a guy who takes so many tough shots he's pretty efficient. Well that's the issue right there. Which then gets in to: Is it necessary for him to take those shots? and Why?

I've watched Kobe for years, and often thought he takes shots he shouldn't - though to be fair, I think that about a lot of guys including the far more efficient LeBron. Still, the fact that lots of guys do it, doesn't make it right.

bird averaged 30 points once and ts% of 60 twice. He didnt disappoint in the playoffs? What are you talking about. His numbers dip way below season averages and his ts% is not that impressive either.

Birds career ts% is almost identical to kobe but one is an inefficent chucker but the other is great.
Why did birds % dropped, he didnt take bad shots and sure as hell didnt use athletic ability to score.

[Doctor MJ]

Honestly not sure what the context was for bringing up Bird, so maybe it was warranted.

When you talk about Bird though, the distinction between career and peak is crucial. At the top of his game he was a 30 PPG 60% TS type guy without a tendency to disappoint in the playoffs, which is significantly more impressive than Kobe. Bird's prime starts several years before that and is
significantly less impressive as a scorer than prime Kobe.

Re: for a guy who takes so many tough shots he's pretty efficient. Well that's the issue right there. Which then gets in to: Is it necessary for him to take those shots? and Why?

I've watched Kobe for years, and often thought he takes shots he shouldn't - though to be fair, I think that about a lot of guys including the far more efficient LeBron. Still, the fact that lots of guys do it, doesn't make it right.

bird averaged 30 points once and ts% of 60 twice. He didnt disappoint in the playoffs? What are you talking about. His numbers dip way below season averages and his ts% is not that impressive either.

Birds career ts% is almost identical to kobe but one is an inefficent chucker but the other is great.
Why did birds % dropped, he didnt take bad shots and sure as hell didnt use athletic ability to score.

I said "At the top of his game he was a 30 PPG 60% TS type guy without a tendency to disappoint in the playoffs". I wasn't saying he was constantly above 30/60. He had a 3-5 year peak where was close to that level, which is damn impressive, and during that time he tended to put up great numbers in the playoffs.

Earlier in his career he didn't have that efficiency, and showed a clear trend of scoring woes in the playoffs - this is the "prime" I talked about and said Kobe's was superior. Average them all out, and you've got the comparable numbers between the two guys you've mentioned. Understand the distinctions?

[D Nice]

Larry's top 3 ('85, '87, '88): 28.7/.585 TS%, 28.1/.612 TS%, 29.9/.608 TS%
Kobe's top 3 ('03, '06, '07): 30.0/.550 TS%, 35.4/.559 TS%, 31.6/.580 TS%

Basically, Larry had his best efficiency seasons in his highest scoring years. The same isn't true of Kobe with the exception of 07. Larry was also a better passer than Kobe, and took home MVPs in the years that corresponded to his offensive dominance. Again, Kobe didn't (tough many, including myself, feel he was robbed in '06 and/or '07). That's why his peak gets the nod. Defensively, Kobe's obviously got a significant advantage, but he was really only at/close to his defensive peak in one of those seasons (03). His best defense was played as a youth (00-03) by far, and has kicked it up recently when he's had teammates to lift some offensive burden (08-present). 05-07 was some of Kobe's worst defense overall.

You can't really discredit Larry due to any defensive era differences because the league efg% in Kobe's seasons were, on the whole, higher than Larry's. Even if you credit that to an athletic/talent uptrend since then, it's really hard (impossible?) to prove statistically.

Overplayed? Hmm. Well, it's pretty dang uncommon for anyone to compare Kobe unfavorably to the 'visibly inferior' guys. The inefficiency card gets played because Kobe's typically being compared with LeBron, who as you noted, is vastly more efficiency.

With that said, Kobe is more likely to be called inefficient than Wade is despite the fact they tend to be pretty comparable. I'd say the reasons for that, 1) Kobe's more high profile and so gets mentioned more period, 2) there isn't nearly as much a Wade/LeBron debate as a Kobe/LeBron debate, and 3) Wade cemented himself as a superstar with a dominant playoff run during which he was very efficient, and probably more importantly, sealed his default criticism to be "he's only good because of the refs".

This is very agreeable, but you are wrong on a couple points here.

Lebron has been a clear notch above Kobe's efficiency the last 2 seasons, when he has shot it into another gear (during the season). But the talk of his "far superior efficiency" was pouring in way before then. When he had actually gotten to that level, people acted like he had been that good the entire time, and the myth began.

You're wrong about Wade too. In both the General board and PC board ANY time Kobe and Wade come up in a thread you have a host of uninformed fans running in declaring Wade to have a clear efficiency advantage, has had it forever, etc, etc. Some of them are just very loud heat fans, of course, but some are not.

EDIT: And of course, Kobe has only really been a part of this no-touch era during his athletic post-prime, and he's been able to hike his efficiency DESPITE this. Can you imagine a prime (2001-2003) Kobe Bryant, with his own team, in today's league? He would literally destroy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cyb1MNb2GrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI

The 2 biggest factors in the rise in Kobe's efficiency have been getting away from Shaq (primary) the rule changes (secondary). As a first option, it is MUCH easier to dictate personal rhythm and stabilize efficiency when you are a volume scorer who doesn't get a lot of assisted baskets like Kobe. The rule changes helped to a point, but by then Kobe had lost a lot of the athleticism that would have allowed him to best exploit them. And of course there were all those notorious hack-fests in 06 and 07 where Kobe couldn't buy a whistle.

But I digress. Point is, that version of Kobe is better than any version of Wade, and at the very least comparabl to what we've seen from Lebron.

[J08]

Why do people keep saying kobe plays bad defence in the years he was tearing up the league scoring.
Its impossible to get 35 and defend the best player.

The past two years with a better supporting cast he has defensive stoppers that guard the best wing on the other team. In the playoffs he always guards one of the best players on the other team.

[D Nice]

Why do people keep saying kobe plays bad defence in the years he was tearing up the league scoring.
Its impossible to get 35 and defend the best player.

The past two years with a better supporting cast he has defensive stoppers that guard the best wing on the other team. In the playoffs he always guards one of the best players on the other team.

I wasn't knocking him. I pointed out EXACTLY what you've stated by crediting with a return to defensive form coinciding with the arrival of offensive help. But it's not just guarding the other teams best player. Kobe was doing a lot of energy saving and gambling during those seasons, a lot of the time unsuccessfully. Not a knock, just facts. I'm a Laker fan whose current favorite player is Kobe, presumably like yourself.

[Cpt Lebyadkin]

Why do people keep saying kobe plays bad defence in the years he was tearing up the league scoring.
Its impossible to get 35 and defend the best player.

The past two years with a better supporting cast he has defensive stoppers that guard the best wing on the other team. In the playoffs he always guards one of the best players on the other team.

Jordan won DPOY while averaging 35ppg but i'm sure someone will come up with some petty excuse to debase that achievement!

[Cpt Lebyadkin]

People (stat 'geeks') saying that the 80's was an era that was defensively inept and inferior to the last decade have got it the wrong way around. it is the current era that is offensively putrid and severely lacking that explains the difference in the numbers when the two eras are compared.

The consensus has been for the last decade that players are coming into the league far less fundamentally sound and way underdone, in other words not close to being ready! guys are entering straight from high-school without any semblance of consistent skills in fundamentals meaning that the overall quality of play decreases greatly, hence why shooting percentages have dropped to the embarrassing levels of today.

[tsherkin]

Year, avg FG%, avg eFG% (team), avg 3PA/g, avg ORTG

1985: 49.1%, 49.6%, 3.1, 107.9
2010: 46.1%, 50.1%, 18.1, 107.6

You can make all the arguments you like about the popularization of iso ball as a result of Jordan and And-1, about HS ballers are the decline of the big man, about zones, etc, etc.

What we're mostly seeing in terms of raw FG% (among the least useful of stats) is that the prolific volume of 3-point shooting is what's lowering FG%, while eFG% and overall offensive efficiency stay at about the same level. This goes for arguments about the efficacy of defense, as well.

Pace has declined, offensive efficiency is almost identical a quarter century later, the only difference is in how we get our points. And remember, I first looked at eFG%, which has nothing to do with the way free throws are calculated, though you could make the argument that some shots are more open than they used to be as a result of the way defenses are forced to play now and it'd be a valid argument.

Yes, we've seen a change in the age at which guys hit the league. We don't see finished college products any more, we mostly wait a year or two until the NBA experience replaces what would have been those college years. Does it matter? Not much, it seems; if the guy had the talent to dominate, he'd do it eventually. We're seeing an era with a greater sense of entitlement and money-focus, that's for certain, but that's not the same thing (nor related, really).

But yeah, functionally, teams are scoring at a similar level of efficiency and at a similar rate, it's just the how that's changed a little.

[J08]

Why do people keep saying kobe plays bad defence in the years he was tearing up the league scoring.
Its impossible to get 35 and defend the best player.

The past two years with a better supporting cast he has defensive stoppers that guard the best wing on the other team. In the playoffs he always guards one of the best players on the other team.

Jordan won DPOY while averaging 35ppg but i'm sure someone will come up with some petty excuse to debase that achievement!

you really think he deserved that? he avg 3 steals 1.6 blks with 5 total rebounds on the other hand Hakeem averaged 2.1steals 2.7blks and 8.7defensvie rebounds. hakeem also anchored the paint for the rockets.

[Doctor MJ]

Why do people keep saying kobe plays bad defence in the years he was tearing up the league scoring.
Its impossible to get 35 and defend the best player.

The past two years with a better supporting cast he has defensive stoppers that guard the best wing on the other team. In the playoffs he always guards one of the best players on the other team.

Jordan won DPOY while averaging 35ppg but i'm sure someone will come up with some petty excuse to debase that achievement!

you really think he deserved that? he avg 3 steals 1.6 blks with 5 total rebounds on the other hand Hakeem averaged 2.1steals 2.7blks and 8.7defensvie rebounds. hakeem also anchored the paint for the rockets.

He didn't deserve it because their were superior big men, but Jordan was phenomenal on defense at that time. The thing about young Jordan is that he just had a fantastic motor on him. It's reasonable to expect that perimeter players can't dominate on both ends of the court because of how much energy is required, and Jordan being an exception to this rule is one of the reasons why he's such an unusual player.