Bargnani vs. Gallinari

[blkout]

You can say it's demeaning, but it's not as if I'm making things up for the comparisons. Those are statistics, it's all quantified. It isn't my problem if he rebounds like a 6'4 shooting guard I'm just presenting the evidence.

[Kabookalu]

You can say it's demeaning, but it's not as if I'm making things up for the comparisons. Those are statistics, it's all quantified. It isn't my problem if he rebounds like a 6'4 shooting guard I'm just presenting the evidence.

Umm exactly, none of my arguments were ever tangible in numbers, which is why I find it humorous you're trying to argue me in that way, I just think you get yourself off demeaning him in any comparison that is made. And when I was going through his rebounding, I clearly stated that even at his very best I can't imagine him ever cracking 8rpg. That's not exactly a compliment.

[Johnny Firpo]

I think Gallinari will be the far superior player in his prime, and a borderline all-star, possibly even better, so Gallo for the future. Right now, you probably have to consider Bargs as the better player, i think that will change this season.

[blkout]

None of your arguments were tangible full stop. You claimed he was a better rebounder/defender under Mitchell than Bilas because of the big man camp etc, but the numbers say otherwise. You compared him to guys who were all clearly better rebounders than he is. The one statistic (which I think exists, I genuinely do want to see it) you mentioned was the clutch shot blocking thing, which I thought was funny and in an effort to not get drawn into another debate with a Raptor fan about Bargnani, singled out and laughed at without trying to poke holes in everything else you said. Things progressed, and here we are.

[Kabookalu]

None of your arguments were tangible full stop. You claimed he was a better rebounder/defender under Mitchell than Bilas because of the big man camp etc, but the numbers say otherwise. You compared him to guys who were all clearly better rebounders than he is. The one statistic (which I think exists, I genuinely do want to see it) you mentioned was the clutch shot blocking thing, which I thought was funny and in an effort to not get drawn into another debate with a Raptor fan about Bargnani, singled out and laughed at without trying to poke holes in everything else you said. Things progressed, and here we are.

So you have the numbers to prove that Bargnani in the first 17 games of the 08 season was the same putrid defender he was before? And I didn't compare him directly to those other guys, but I compared their situations; they've all been criticized for not being elite rebounders for their height, but there's a reason for it. Height doesn't always mean you're automatically a gifted rebounder. Again I really don't know where you're going with this, I'm saying that Bargnani is at fault because he's not putting in quite the effort to be better than he is right now, and somehow you're seeing this as me making excuses for him. Things didn't progress, they went nowhere, and here we are. You're trying to pit things on me that I'm not saying at all just to make your argument look better. Eh whatever, I guess some people need to do this.

[THROWBACK_91]

Why the flying 69uck would you build around a shooter ?!

[THROWBACK_91]

Gallinari. Simply because I don't think you can win a championship with a soft center like Bargnani.

You could if he was your 4

[tsherkin]

I don't know if his defensive instincts are limited, but that he's not willing to make use of them. He usually has good timing on blocks and his shotblocking in the clutch is second only to Brendan Haywood.

100% limited; he grew up as a 2 and 3, he doesn't understand help defense is all. How many times a game do you see him watching, slack-jawed, as guards go right past where he should have rotated over to? He's a miserably ineffective help defender. Good post defender, but dumber than piss on toast as a help defender. He's getting better, sure, but he needs a coach to be on him all the time and, more importantly, he needs to be taught the fundamentals and have them drilled in hard.

And yes, I absolutely agree that Jay "I have no business being an NBA head coach" Triano is not doing Bargs any favors as far as reaching his potential.

[NO-KG-AI]

He's very Kwame Brown defensively, only worse. Big body with nice speed and quickness, not super explosive leaping, but uses those others to be a nice man defender. 0 awareness rotating, switching, etc.

[blkout]

So you have the numbers to prove that Bargnani in the first 17 games of the 08 season was the same putrid defender he was before?

Do you? Who cares about 17 games, we're talking full seasons here. Did the effort he put in in just 17 games convince you that big man camp was so effective, only to have that effort evaporate after Triano took over? I know you like small sample sizes but come on.

And I didn't compare him directly to those other guys, but I compared their situations; they've all been criticized for not being elite rebounders for their height, but there's a reason for it. Height doesn't always mean you're automatically a gifted rebounder.

No one mentioned his height except you. The things mentioned were athleticism, lower body strength and boxing out. You also said under Sam Mitchell "he actually was boxing out on every possession"... but statistically he had his worst rebounding years under Mitchell, so what gives?

Again I really don't know where you're going with this, I'm saying that Bargnani is at fault because he's not putting in quite the effort to be better than he is right now, and somehow you're seeing this as me making excuses for him.

You blamed the change in coaches for his lack of boxing out, you blamed the change in coaches on him not going to big man camp and continuing his apparent defensive progress. You think you're holding the player accountable but in the same breath you actually blame the coach, example:

"Under Sam Mitchell he actually was boxing out every possession, but now the guy just stands there and it's infuriating."

You're trying to pit things on me that I'm not saying at all just to make your argument look better. Eh whatever, I guess some people need to do this.

Yeah, and some people need to ignore entire posts because they have no response to being presented with facts that go against their own biased judgment towards one of their team's players.

Maybe if you spent less time splitting hairs over what constitutes a direct or non-direct comparison, or what is an excuse and what isn't, and actually debated the arguments I initially presented this might get somewhere.

[Ripp]

^--- I've always been skeptical of certain clutch statistics (due to sample size issues)...thanks for making it very clear how limited this block statistic is.

[Kabookalu]

Do you? Who cares about 17 games, we're talking full seasons here.

No, we're not! I've already CLARIFIED over and OVER again this is really only about the beginning of the 08 season. YOU'RE the one bringing up full seasons. See what I mean by pitting things against me to make your arguments look better?

No one mentioned his height except you. The things mentioned were athleticism, lower body strength and boxing out. You also said under Sam Mitchell "he actually was boxing out on every possession"... but statistically he had his worst rebounding years under Mitchell, so what gives?

Ummm, exactly, I drew a correlation for being poor rebounders for their large heights and then connected it to their low upper body strength and low center of balance. I know you said you stopped reading after a certain part of my post, I know you lied and read all of it, but you could at least comprehend with what I'm saying.

You blamed the change in coaches for his lack of boxing out, you blamed the change in coaches on him not going to big man camp and continuing his apparent defensive progress. You think you're holding the player accountable but in the same breath you actually blame the coach, example:

"Under Sam Mitchell he actually was boxing out every possession, but now the guy just stands there and it's infuriating."

Yeah I'm not holding the player accountable for admitting he's lazy and not playing to the best of his abilities.

Yeah, and some people need to ignore entire posts because they have no response to being presented with facts that go against their own biased judgment towards one of their team's players.

I think that perfectly describes exactly you in this argument.

Maybe if you spent less time splitting hairs over what constitutes a direct or non-direct comparison, or what is an excuse and what isn't, and actually debated the arguments I initially presented this might get somewhere.

It's not going anywhere as long as you keep hold this grudge against Bargnani, and I know you're not gonna want me to win in any comparison involving Bargnani, because the thought of Bargnani winning in any argument, even if it means justifying why he's underperforming, irritates you and gets under your skin.

[haterade]

At least Bargs scores at a good percentage with his camping at the 3 pt line. Give me Andrea.

Bargs has a lower 3P% than Gallo.

[Kabookalu]

At least Bargs scores at a good percentage with his camping at the 3 pt line. Give me Andrea.

Bargs has a lower 3P% than Gallo.

He's not saying that Bargs has a higher 3P%, but that they both camp at the 3 point line and Bargs FG% is higher. Gallo's TS% is higher though.

[Ming Kong!]

Gallo anyday. He impressed me in his first full season, while Bargnani does nothing for me. He camps in the perimeter, and grabs no rebounds. Gallo plays his part perfectly, and creates matchup problems at 6'10" and good speed for his size. I think he'll become an 18-20+ ppg guy too. A deadly shooter is what you want at the wings, Bargs is not what you want at center. Both are still young, so it can change, but I would never build around these guys. These are 3rd options at best on a championship team.

[Legendary 33]

I'd never build around either player..they both are very limited athletically, and are poor defenders. Neither are great rebounders for their position (Bargs being atrocious).

Neither player can create their own shot consistently. Neither player is a great ball handler or passer.

Other than shooting the 3 ball, Gallinari brings no above-average production in any other measurable statistic.

I guess I'd probably take Gallo because he's younger.. neither player is really anything special

[Toxicity]

@ some comments... you're not adapt to evaluate talents.

Next year you'll see what both are able to do... Bargs is ready to become the 1st option on a NBA team, not just camping on the perimeter but trying to work inside as well (this summer he has played great for Italy NT)... while Gallo will be the 2nd option in NYC and is going to improve his all-around game after his back strenght improvements this summer.

[NYK 455]

I'd never build around either player..they both are very limited athletically, and are poor defenders. Neither are great rebounders for their position (Bargs being atrocious).

Neither player can create their own shot consistently. Neither player is a great ball handler or passer.

Other than shooting the 3 ball, Gallinari brings no above-average production in any other measurable statistic.

I guess I'd probably take Gallo because he's younger.. neither player is really anything special

Gallo is pretty good on D and isn't a horrible athlete. You probably never watched him play

[Kabookalu]

:lol: @ some comments... you're not adapt to evaluate talents.

Next year you'll see what both are able to do... Bargs is ready to become the 1st option on a NBA team, not just camping on the perimeter but trying to work inside as well (this summer he has played great for Italy NT)... while Gallo will be the 2nd option in NYC and is going to improve his all-around game after his back strenght improvements this summer.

That's if he decides to operate in the same areas that Bosh took over and not camp out on the 3 point line. My fear is that he's so accustomed to being at the 3 point line he won't ever leave there even though he would be a lot more effective in the mid range area. His first step is way too quick to not take advantage of. There's a lot of us that complained that when Bosh went down, Reggie Evans was getting more looks in the post then Bargnani, but although Triano is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) of a coach, it's not like Bargnani can't be exempt from any blame; on last year's team that had no hierarchy, order, or control, Bargnani should have taken charge. He didn't, he sort of just let things happen. Jack was the only one that really took charge of that team.

[Toxicity]

:lol: @ some comments... you're not adapt to evaluate talents.

Next year you'll see what both are able to do... Bargs is ready to become the 1st option on a NBA team, not just camping on the perimeter but trying to work inside as well (this summer he has played great for Italy NT)... while Gallo will be the 2nd option in NYC and is going to improve his all-around game after his back strenght improvements this summer.

That's if he decides to operate in the same areas that Bosh took over and not camp out on the 3 point line. My fear is that he's so accustomed to being at the 3 point line he won't ever leave there even though he would be a lot more effective in the mid range area. His first step is way too quick to not take advantage of. There's a lot of us that complained that when Bosh went down, Reggie Evans was getting more looks in the post then Bargnani, but although Triano is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) of a coach, it's not like Bargnani can't be exempt from any blame; on last year's team that had no hierarchy, order, or control, Bargnani should have taken charge. He didn't, he sort of just let things happen. Jack was the only one that really took charge of that team.

Well, this summer we have seen another Bargs on the court... not only he finished as the top scorer of the euro qualify competition @ 24.1 ppg (on 52.4% FG, commanding double teams, etc) but he was also the best player in 2 Pts Field Goals Made with 8.1 per game! He took 3,75 3p shots per game: that's just 20% of his total field goals attempted. So i think Andrea is gradually changing his game... less perimeter oriented and more inside. And he was pretty confortable doing that... that's my biggest surprise!