Carmelo Anthony Thread (Merging)

[treiz]

I know how to do cap math. I said previously that Paul or DWILL would probably be moved in a trade so no cap space needed. Why don't you ever propose anything yourself? Instead you just shoot down every idea even when it's not what the person meant at all.

It's you who has been saying there will be no cap space if the Melo deal goes through which is incorrect. maybe you should do some cap math.

Unless the Knicks magically match salaries that will get them Pau/Deron, this ain't happening. Cap still matters....

[treiz]

So I just figured I would go out all Hiroshima style on this thread...



Follow up trade (December 15th):

Nets send:
Travis Outlaw
Jordan Farmar
Johan Petro
Stephen Graham

Bullets send:
Gilbert Arenas


Oh you knew it was coming...

Now obviously this kills most all hope for Chris Paul or Deron Williams, but it seems like an impatient and impulsive Billy King style move.
Sure it's a ton of long term salary to take on, but we also send out a lot.

Melo/Brook/Arenas as the Nets new Big 3 and we keep the rest of our assets...

POWER SHIFT

[treiz]

BTW, I was thinking about the main pieces in the widely proposed deal and aside from attempting to hold on to a starting quality power forward, it's pretty obvious to me the Nets value DJ Augustin higher then Devin Harris in general or they would probably attempt to hold onto Devin, figuring in the reported proposals Devin has no bearing on Denver's return.

I think a reason for this is that if you look at our roster, to get a more balanced team we have to keep Troy, otherwise there's a huge hole at PF. If we trade Devin, (as much as I don't trust him but management does) we'll have Farmar and Augustine. I think it's just because it balances our team out a bit more. Also, since Devin needs the ball in his hands to be effective so that could be a factor. (Although it makes no sense, Harris had a breakout year when VC was here).

[treiz]

Am I missing something? There would be at least $10mil in cap space based on the current $58mil cap if Augustin is included and retained.

In what year and season? Am I missing something?!

It always amazes me with posters like you.

You claim over and over to understand and have knowledge of the salary cap, both in general as in the rules of the CBA and specifically, as in teams exact caps.

Then it turns out you know nothing and constantly talk out of your brown eye.


You know what? If you're a casual fan that doesn't know a lot, I don't hold a lot against you, it's cool. But when you're some self proclaimed B Ball guy that says he knows his stuff and turns out to be about as smart and savvy as Rob Babcock after a Phish concert... I mean...

to answer your question, summer 2011. Before I back up what I said let me point out that you continue to attack me and not my arguement. It's what us educated folk call an "ad hominem" arguement. From the latin meaning "to the man".

After rumored trade : http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=26274xc

remaining guaranteed contracts for 2011-2012 season

assuming: http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-contrac ... 65&years=3 (for Carmelo's deal)

Carmelo Anthony $20,000,000
Travis Outlaw $7,000,000
Anthony Morrow $4,000,000
Jordan Farmar $4,000,000
D.J. Augustin $3,236,470
Johan Petro $3,250,000
Brook Lopez $3,076,983
Terrence Williams $2,369,040
Damion James $1,243,080
Total $48,175,573
plus cap holds $1,500,000
cap number $49,675,575

That leaves $8,324,425 in cap space if 2010 salary cap of $58,000,000 is used
If D.J. Augustin is not included in deal or his option is not picked up (I believe it needs to be decided by Oct.30) it would leave $11,060,895 in cap space.

for salaries: http://shamsports.com/content/pages/dat ... s/nets.jsp

I could have made a mistake in there. Go ahead and point it out, but don't just say I don't know what I'm talking about and try to be funny by saying "brown eye".

Look at that team and tell me who our PF is?

Not just that, but if we go after a Paul or Deron, how are we suppose to fill up the rest of the roster?

[treiz]

kmsmith,

Whether or not Chris Paul demands a trade is really questionable at best. Recent reports suggest that he is happy in New Orleans.


I believe that the Nets are putting themselves in the best position to win by acquiring Melo. He may be able to lead a team to the playoffs in the East almost single handedly. That is the kind of talent Melo possesses.

The Nets have some quality pieces in place who may be able to stick it out with the team in the longrun. I really like Outlaw as a prime candidate for a breakout season. Damion James should have a surprise season as well.

I LIKED Outlaw as a prime candidate this year. But coming off the bench behind Melo? How do you like his chances now?

Sure we can get to the playoffs. Will we play 4 or 5 games against the Heat before its over?

You can try to play Melo as a spot four, as his post game is very advanced for a SF. You can say the same for Damion James. To be honest though, Outlaw is just a good rotation player at this point, not a guaranteed starter by any stretch. (for a good playoff team imo)

Give it four years of star draft picks, and I still would doubt that the Nets would contend with the Heat. However, put a player like Melo into the rotation and make some shrewd draft day deals instead of going for sure bets, and maybe the Nets can have a crack at it down the road. At the very least, it brings some publicity to this team. And, it goes far towards making the Nets a winner because Melo is one of the top 3 toughest players to defend in the NBA on the offensive end. (don't just take it from me, ask the Olympic guys)

Sure, a lot of winning teams start off with star players who are sure bets at picks 1 and 2. But, real stable contenders continue to do the scouting work to bring in players and win. Look at the Spurs bringing in Tiago Splitter. That should be the model that the Nets follow. Acquire Melo, and then luck out and get the number 1 pick and draft Quincy Miller or Michael Gilchrist. Realistically though, the Nets are making the right move by acquiring a proven all NBA player.

You made one point which I agree in which is why I don't want this trade. The superfriends down in Miami. Let's be honest here, either them, the Lakers, Celtics (maybe this is their last year), and Orlando are going to be the one contending. Now, IMO we should just let them contend and let us just be pure shite for the next couple of years. With that we can have a young core in place that can compete for the play-offs, like what Portland did. We'll have Brook further along, with Twill, hopefully Favors pans out as well as James and we'll have 2 or 3 more high draft picks depending on GSW. After that is accomplished, then go out and get a Chris Paul or Deron from free agency.

[Petro45]

There's just as much risk, if not more, in hoping draft picks pan out. Let's take the guy who already panned out.

Not true. The best players in the NBA...the vast majority of the elite...were taken with top 5 picks. And those teams had a 4 year window of rook contracts. Paying those guys far below their talent value...which means also having cap space. Teams that overpay for ONE big name before they can support him? And give away the piece to get better later? They have a LOOOOOOOONG history of perfectly medicore.

We've exchanged posts on this before. The fact that most great players were top 5 picks does not = the typical top 5 pick is likely to be a great player. All roses are red does not = all red flowers are roses.

I forget the exact analysis I did before, but looking at the last 10 years of top 5 picks a pretty small number turned out to even be all-stars, much less superstars. And that's with the Carmelo-Wade-LeBron-Bosh (and Darko!) class inflating the numbers.

Sucking and trying to land a superstar in the draft is a gamble. Maybe it's a better gamble than getting Carmelo and hoping to luck into another star, but it's a gamble nonetheless. Also, bear in mind that we only have 2 more years of Brook at this contract before we have to pay through the nose to keep him - we only have a limited time to try to sign a superstar via free agency.

Again, not saying I'm definitely in favor of the trade - only time will tell. But we have a window closing, so there are some justifications for going into "try to win now" mode. As others have said, the key difference between this and the Knicks is that if it doesn't work out, we can dump Carmelo and try rebuilding again in a couple of years -- the Knicks, who were far over the cap with unloadable terrible contracts for mediocre players, never had that option.

[jerseyjac]

More than anything right now, among all the reports and rumors, I'm thinking Melo doesnt want to come here... I'm not surprised, there is definitely some truth to this on top Denver asking for the kitchen sink and the Nets entertaining they're greed...

Mik/Billy, I hope you make this move to make another...

[Adam1221]

Wow Ive been away for 3 days and this happens.....

Anyway here's my cup o tee.

*Its hard to see Devin go, I as apposed to everyone else here (damn what have you done for me lately fans) really really like this guy and was excited to see him go this year healthy and playing for Avery again.

*I dont really mind loosing Favors I honestly dont see this guy's best case scenario beeing better than Carmelo who is at least a top 10 player today in his prime, you cant pass up on a chance to get a player like.

*Imo the biggest thing this trade has going for it is honestly that sexy sexy sexy cap space, 15m in cap space to throw around at the end of the season and a couple of remaining assets might very well put us in position to build one of those super team's that every team dream's of assembling.

Our next core might very well be CP3/Melo/Lopez

[demens]

Basically my point is, is like Rich said, we're outbidding ourselves. We could put in an offer with much less value and still be good. The reason why that trade alone is better than the Knicks is because we can offer them draft picks. I'm not saying that James alone can get us Anthony, OK fair enough you might have to switch him for TWill, just to make sure our deal is better. But the fact that we have 10 draft picks for the next God-knows-how many years, we can offer them a CRAP load, if they want let them take 3 1sts and 2nds.

As for KG, that's what we're offering on a MUCH LESSER PLAYER. KG at the time was an MVP player, Melo isn't. Pure and simple. So, why should we overpay for a 2nd tier player who doesn't even want to be there? Look, we're not saying that we have leverage over Melo. But we have leverage over Denver, because of the fact that Melo could easily walk away and leave Denver with nothing, not just that, but we can also offer the best package for Melo without sacrificing too much and that will favor us in Denver's eyes. They don't have to trade him to the Nets, but the WANT to trade him to the Nets.

You know how i laugh at people that think Twitt is the next mini Lebron or whatever, well so does the rest of the league. He is far far from qualifying for the label "talented young player" like Al Jefferson id or Favors does. And so is James. Twitt or James is not the kind of talent that would make the Nets offer the best on the table. We're not outbidding ourselves, we are offering what needs to be offered.

Boston offered much more for KG then we are offering for Melo currently. I posted the trade details earlier, how can you say we are offering the same. They gave up 7 players KG (5 of which were legit NBA talent), how is that even remotely close to our offer? We are offering 5 (only 3 of which are legit) and are getting back Melo + a decent backup pg who is still young and has potential. Thats not a bad offer at all. A lot of it is in the details like i said before. For example if we dont Augustin the deal becomes worse, if we give up an extra pick it becomes worse. But the center package is just fine and at this point i just want Melo so i dont even care about the details anymore.

[demens]

on a side note. The knick board actually banged out 100 pages in a day on the subject. Amazing.

[SOUP]

Yup, I was enjoying reading their board along with a nice bowl of cereal.

Good times.

[ecuhus1981]

In 2 years if the Nets are a capped out team and suck you move a 28 year old Melo for some good young players and try again... Not sure what's so hard to comprehend about that...

The thing is, in two years, no one is going to be stupid enough to trade an All Star and a top 3 pick for Melo, not anywhere near that kind of value.

[Netaman]

You still arent getting it. First Melo is no KG. he will get paid like him...but not KG. Next...ITS TIMING. How was Minny with KG in his prime? Why was older KG on Boston a better team than Minny? Because Minny had no picks, no cap space and limitted trade assets which is what we will have post trade for Melo. For 7 years...Minny couldnt get any better than they were. KG was their saint and his contract and lack of assets were there curse. Perfectly MEDIOCRE.

First off I think it's debateable whether or not KG is better or worse then Carmelo. The most important thing KG brought to the Celts was his defensive mentality and leadership - no question he trumps Melo there. Offensively however I don't think there is any doubt that Carmelo can take over a game in a way that only a handful can. That is not only a positive to Carmelo but something KG hasn't been able to do at this stage in his career. In terms of results Carmelo has had his teams playing against championship level squads in the second round the same way KG did with his earlier teams - in fact Denver was an even tougher out. I'd take KG in his prime over Melo no doubt. With a 5 year age difference Id probably go with the younger guy.

Secondly you're missing my key point - Brook Lopez. When did KG ever have a player that good to play with in Minnesota? Wally? Tom Gugliata? Anthony Peeler? Sprewell? Cassell? We already have a massive building block in place making us different then the Wolves in the 2000's.

How do you get a Ray Allen? Do you know what Allen cost them? It cost them a #5 draft pick straight up. Where are we getting that? And you do realize we have to salary match.

Yes Ray Allen cost a #5 pick in a draft straight up. And a huge NON EXPIRING contract with Wally. You do realize our roster will still have 2 young lottery picks (Augustine and TWill), a guy who could have been a lottery pick last year (James), in addition to our own first round pick? Are any of those assets equal to a #5 pick? Not right now but any of them easily could be in the next few months with solid play. You never want to count on another team's stupidity but it goes without saying we have more to offer a team then Javaris Critteton. In season multiple first round picks = a top 10 chance in the lottery.

Look I said it all along. The only way this trade works out...is we have to get another superstar. And by paying FAR MORE than the market value for Melo...and then PAYING him far more than HIS value salary wise....it is going ot be BEYOND difficult. It is the Knicks...NOT Boston. Our BEST chance of doing all of this? Trade Troy+ before the trade deadline for some veteran being dumped.

Thats the best shot. Do that? And sure...we can have the pleasure of being the Heat's tune up series before they win the title...IF we get past Orlando, Atlanta and the Celtics for whatever time they have left. And that's of course until some other team in the EC lands that stud in the draft we took ourselves out of the running for. Say Wall is a stud...and for the next two years...they land a couple more? That window we have will look pretty weak.

Here's where we agree until we don't. If this roster can find a competent PG we are competitive with everyone in the East other then the Heat. Im just throwing this out there but I believe we'd have plenty of assets left to do something like this:

Augustine (2mil), Outlaw (7mil), Hump (3.5mil), NJ 1st round pick - for Tony Parker (expiring 13 mil)

In fact, I think that's probably an overpayment since there are a few other PG's who would fit the profile of what we're looking for (Andre Miller, even Billups).

Patience willing, that kind of trade still leaves us with enough assets to add a final piece (over 25 mil in expiring contracts, TWill, D James, Morrow). Plus no bad long term contracts.

Once again for me the most important reason to do this trade is Brook. If the organization believes he is good enough to become the best offensive center in the league (already close) while improving on the defensive side of the ball (no reason he can't) we might be putting an unnecessary cap on the potential of this twosome.

[SOUP]

Your first sentence invalidates your entire post.

[treiz]

There's just as much risk, if not more, in hoping draft picks pan out. Let's take the guy who already panned out.

Not true. The best players in the NBA...the vast majority of the elite...were taken with top 5 picks. And those teams had a 4 year window of rook contracts. Paying those guys far below their talent value...which means also having cap space. Teams that overpay for ONE big name before they can support him? And give away the piece to get better later? They have a LOOOOOOOONG history of perfectly medicore.

We've exchanged posts on this before. The fact that most great players were top 5 picks does not = the typical top 5 pick is likely to be a great player. All roses are red does not = all red flowers are roses.

I forget the exact analysis I did before, but looking at the last 10 years of top 5 picks a pretty small number turned out to even be all-stars, much less superstars. And that's with the Carmelo-Wade-LeBron-Bosh (and Darko!) class inflating the numbers.

Sucking and trying to land a superstar in the draft is a gamble. Maybe it's a better gamble than getting Carmelo and hoping to luck into another star, but it's a gamble nonetheless. Also, bear in mind that we only have 2 more years of Brook at this contract before we have to pay through the nose to keep him - we only have a limited time to try to sign a superstar via free agency.

Again, not saying I'm definitely in favor of the trade - only time will tell. But we have a window closing, so there are some justifications for going into "try to win now" mode. As others have said, the key difference between this and the Knicks is that if it doesn't work out, we can dump Carmelo and try rebuilding again in a couple of years -- the Knicks, who were far over the cap with unloadable terrible contracts for mediocre players, never had that option.

The beauty of building through the draft is that it's not really a gamble, it's a cheap investment on the future, if it doesn't pan out, you can release the player after their contract is up. However, when it comes to trading and signing, it's a much more expensive investment, in this case fo example, if we get Melo he will have to sign an extension, and that extension will take out 40% of our cap, now how are suppose to contend against the superfriends and the Lakers when we're going to need:

a)Another superstar, possibly 2
b)fill out the rest of the roster spots

[Netaman]

Your first sentence invalidates your entire post.

Is not was - the point is that KG was at the tail end of his prime when the Celtics got him.

[Rich Rane]

*Imo the biggest thing this trade has going for it is honestly that sexy sexy sexy cap space, 15m in cap space to throw around at the end of the season and a couple of remaining assets might very well put us in position to build one of those super team's that every team dream's of assembling

Great, but the next two years of unrestricted free agency kind of suck other than Tony Parker. As far as trades go, that cap space might be good enough to bring in a superstar, but after a Melo trade like this one, our assets in a package would be the same as any other team. Favors or Harris would've been the kicker for teams to take our package.

You know how i laugh at people that think Twitt is the next mini Lebron or whatever, well so does the rest of the league. He is far far from qualifying for the label "talented young player" like Al Jefferson id or Favors does. And so is James. Twitt or James is not the kind of talent that would make the Nets offer the best on the table. We're not outbidding ourselves, we are offering what needs to be offered.

I honestly don't see how you don't get we had the best offer on the table before yesterday on Melo's list of teams he'd prefer to be traded to. We had the highest offer on an auction and we bid higher...we gave gold while the other two gave frankincense and myrrh and then we gave more gold...we offered a Charizard Pokemon card while the other two offered a Venusaur and a Blastoise card and we topped it with another Charizard.

Boston offered much more for KG then we are offering for Melo currently. I posted the trade details earlier, how can you say we are offering the same. They gave up 7 players KG (5 of which were legit NBA talent), how is that even remotely close to our offer? We are offering 5 (only 3 of which are legit) and are getting back Melo + a decent backup pg who is still young and has potential. Thats not a bad offer at all. A lot of it is in the details like i said before. For example if we dont Augustin the deal becomes worse, if we give up an extra pick it becomes worse. But the center package is just fine and at this point i just want Melo so i dont even care about the details anymore.

Who cares? Think in terms of impact. KG was the last piece to contention. You overpay for the last piece (without giving up the plan for contention). What does this Melo trade do for us? He doesn't make us contenders. He depletes our assets and keeps us in the middle of the league. He makes it harder for the team to come up with a blueprint to become contenders within the next three years, puts the last two years of rebuilding to waste, and comes with a possible inevitable rebuilding process anyway if we can't find another star.

In 2 years if the Nets are a capped out team and suck you move a 28 year old Melo for some good young players and try again... Not sure what's so hard to comprehend about that...

The thing is, in two years, no one is going to be stupid enough to trade an All Star and a top 3 pick for Melo, not anywhere near that kind of value.

Exactly. With his contract extension and our possible mediocre record, we may be in the same position Denver is in now. Melo could be unhappy and want to force his way out, thus the team entering the rebuilding phase once again if we do trade him. We'll be receiving lowball offers like the ones Denver received from Chicago and New York and like the one we should be offering right now.

[treiz]

Basically my point is, is like Rich said, we're outbidding ourselves. We could put in an offer with much less value and still be good. The reason why that trade alone is better than the Knicks is because we can offer them draft picks. I'm not saying that James alone can get us Anthony, OK fair enough you might have to switch him for TWill, just to make sure our deal is better. But the fact that we have 10 draft picks for the next God-knows-how many years, we can offer them a CRAP load, if they want let them take 3 1sts and 2nds.

As for KG, that's what we're offering on a MUCH LESSER PLAYER. KG at the time was an MVP player, Melo isn't. Pure and simple. So, why should we overpay for a 2nd tier player who doesn't even want to be there? Look, we're not saying that we have leverage over Melo. But we have leverage over Denver, because of the fact that Melo could easily walk away and leave Denver with nothing, not just that, but we can also offer the best package for Melo without sacrificing too much and that will favor us in Denver's eyes. They don't have to trade him to the Nets, but the WANT to trade him to the Nets.

You know how i laugh at people that think Twitt is the next mini Lebron or whatever, well so does the rest of the league. He is far far from qualifying for the label "talented young player" like Al Jefferson id or Favors does. And so is James. Twitt or James is not the kind of talent that would make the Nets offer the best on the table. We're not outbidding ourselves, we are offering what needs to be offered.

Boston offered much more for KG then we are offering for Melo currently. I posted the trade details earlier, how can you say we are offering the same. They gave up 7 players KG (5 of which were legit NBA talent), how is that even remotely close to our offer? We are offering 5 (only 3 of which are legit) and are getting back Melo + a decent backup pg who is still young and has potential. Thats not a bad offer at all. A lot of it is in the details like i said before. For example if we dont Augustin the deal becomes worse, if we give up an extra pick it becomes worse. But the center package is just fine and at this point i just want Melo so i dont even care about the details anymore.

Where have you seen me compare AlJeff to TWill or even James for that matter? What I was quoting was you saying that AR or Gallo is better than James, and I said fair enough let's even up the value then and put in TWill. You are correct that TWIll and James won't get Melo. The multiple 1sts and expiring contracts will, and for this reason WE ARE OUTBIDDING OURSELVES. All this time, I've been posting over and over and over again, it's not about the prospect of James and TWill. It's about the cap relief from the expiring as well as the multiple 1sts so they can have a smooth rebuilding process.

The reason why Minny go more from KG is simply because KG IS A 1ST TIER SUPERSTAR, and Melo just isn't. Now I've reviewed the trade and here's what was given up:

Al Jefferson (no complains there)
Sebastian Telfair (Proven talent?)
Gerald Green (Was nothing but a dunker)
Theo Ratliff (Expiring contract)
Ryan Gomes (Solid young guy with potential, kind of like James or TWill)
2 1st round draft picks

Out of the 6 players traded, only 2 guys are legit and we're used and that's Gomes and AlJeff, the rest turned out to be crap and some are even out of the league, Theo Ratliff served his purpose as an expiring however, so I'll let that go. Also, I'm not sure who was taken with those picks, but if you can let me know I'll sure discuss about that. Now, if you want to get the same value as AlJeff, we'd have to trade Brook. The rest is pretty much what I offered, young guys (TWill and James), expiring (Murphy) and multiple 1st rounders.

Look the reason why it's a bad offer is because we don't need to offer this much, if Melo was in his 2nd year of a 6-year contract I'd say go for it, but the fact of the matter is we can easily lowball Denver to drop their demands and let us keep extra pieces in order to get a Paul or Deron.

[treiz]

In 2 years if the Nets are a capped out team and suck you move a 28 year old Melo for some good young players and try again... Not sure what's so hard to comprehend about that...

The thing is, in two years, no one is going to be stupid enough to trade an All Star and a top 3 pick for Melo, not anywhere near that kind of value.

Not just that, it'd be harder to trade Melo especially with the ginormous contract he's going to sign if the trade does go down.

[Lamak]

Whether or not this trade goes trade through, I'll be happy either way. I'm just ready for training camp to start.