Retro POY 1960-61 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of 1960-61.

Schedule will be Mon-Fri, and Thu-Mon. Typically this will be morning to morning.

Some things to start us off:

NBA
The Year in Review http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1961.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1961.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1961.html
Final Box Score http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/playoffs/1961.htm

[Dr Positivity]

The first link goes to 62, not 61

Odd year with Wilt, Baylor, Oscar putting up massive stats on mediocore teams (Wilt won 46 but with a much weaker SRS - and they got swept in the playoffs. So I'm calling them mediocore). I still don't know if Pettit is a better player than Wilt or Oscar despite the Hawks success this year but we'll see. Still it feels like Russell, Pettit, Baylor, Oscar, Wilt will be everyone's top 5 in some order - HM to Schayes who put up 23/12 on the (true) 3rd best team and will be getting more play soon. I know nothing about him

I didn't know West's rookie year came the first year the Lakers were in LA. That's pretty cool. Bonne soir, Jerry. Your friends Oscar and Wilt will be joining you soon

[JordansBulls]

The first link goes to 62, not 61

Odd year with Wilt, Baylor, Oscar putting up massive stats on mediocore teams (Wilt won 46 but with a much weaker SRS - and they got swept in the playoffs. So I'm calling them mediocore). I still don't know if Pettit is a better player than Wilt or Oscar despite the Hawks success this year but we'll see. Still it feels like Russell, Pettit, Baylor, Oscar, Wilt will be everyone's top 5 in some order - HM to Schayes who put up 23/12 on the (true) 3rd best team and will be getting more play soon. I know nothing about him

I didn't know West's rookie year came the first year the Lakers were in LA. That's pretty cool. Bonne soir, Jerry. Your friends Oscar and Wilt will be joining you soon

Yeah and got swept by a team below .500 at that.

[Doctor MJ]

The first link goes to 62, not 61

Fixed. Thanks.

[ronnymac2]

Wilt, Baylor, Russell, and Pettit are guaranteed spots. I guess Oscar is, too. West isn't on their level as a rookie (Oscar is a rookie, but he was pretty damn good). Cousy, Schayes, Twyman, Guerin, Arizin, and Howell all deserve mention, but they aren't better than the top five.

I like Twyman though, and Howell had a crazy good REG SEA. They deserve special mention.

The contenders for me are Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Baylor, and Pettit.

[Warspite]

The first link goes to 62, not 61

Odd year with Wilt, Baylor, Oscar putting up massive stats on mediocore teams (Wilt won 46 but with a much weaker SRS - and they got swept in the playoffs. So I'm calling them mediocore). I still don't know if Pettit is a better player than Wilt or Oscar despite the Hawks success this year but we'll see. Still it feels like Russell, Pettit, Baylor, Oscar, Wilt will be everyone's top 5 in some order - HM to Schayes who put up 23/12 on the (true) 3rd best team and will be getting more play soon. I know nothing about him

I didn't know West's rookie year came the first year the Lakers were in LA. That's pretty cool. Bonne soir, Jerry. Your friends Oscar and Wilt will be joining you soon

Schayes is the Dirk/Chambers of his era. 6'10" outside shooting stretch 4 I would guess he would have led the NBA in 3pt % if they had the line in the 50s. His fav spot was right in front of the coaches box on the left wing. Hes basicly Mr Nationals/Syracuse. His son played for the Suns, Magic.

I consider 1963 thhe 1st yr of modern NBA and 1959-62 as the transition yrs. The game was evolving and from here on your journey will be the deevolution of basketball. Going from stadiums to ballrooms and from set rules to constant tinkering with them.

[semi-sentient]

* = led the league

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player            GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST    PER    WS
=====================================================================
Bill Russell      78   44.3   16.9   .454   23.9   3.4    18.1   13.0
Elgin Baylor      73   42.9   34.8   .498   19.8   5.1    28.2*  14.4
Wilt Chamberlain  79   47.8*  38.4*  .519   27.2*  1.9    27.8   18.8*
Bob Pettit        76   39.8   27.9   .511   20.3   3.4    25.2   14.9
Oscar Robertson   71   42.7   30.5   .555*  10.1   9.7*   25.9   13.2

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player            GP   MIN    PTS    TS%    REB    AST    PER    WS
=====================================================================
Elgin Baylor      12*  45.0   38.1*  .538   15.3   4.6    28.0*  2.8*
Bill Russell      10   46.2   19.1   .457   29.9*  4.8    22.0   1.9
Wilt Chamberlain   3   48.0*  37.0   .492   23.0   2.0    26.7   0.7
Bob Pettit        12*  43.8   28.6   .494   17.6   3.2    22.3   1.7
Oscar Robertson   ---------------------------------------------------

Awards Recognition / Misc

Code: Select all

Player            MVP     All-NBA   Team Record
===============================================
Bill Russell      1st     2nd       57-22*
Elgin Baylor      3rd     1st       36-43
Wilt Chamberlain  4th     1st       46-33
Bob Pettit        2nd     1st       51-28
Oscar Robertson   5th     1st       33-46

I think Russell and Baylor should be the only ones duking it out for the top spot (massive gap in team wins, but also a massive gap in supporting talent). After that there's a nice drop off to 3rd, which is probably going to end up being Wilt or Pettit. Oscar is probably going to come in at 5th despite having a very nice rookie season. Not playing in the playoffs hurts in comparison to all the others.

[penbeast0]

There are only 3 teams over .500 this year. The Champion - - wait for it - - Boston Celtics, the Hawks (we are now into the stretch of the Hawks, rather than the Lakers, being the Western Conference’s top team), and the Warriors. The Nats have a good SRS but couldn’t translate it into wins.

Boston -- Before we start ripping Boston’s gunners, remember that the average 2pt fg% in the league was only .415 rather than around .500 as it is today. That said, the Celtics were by far the worst shooting team in the league, the only team under .400, and they didn’t make up for it by getting a lot of FT either (2rd worst in the league, surprisingly Wilt’s Warriors made the least in the league because they were mainly shot by Wilt!). Foul drawing becomes more and more important as we have definitely entered old fashioned era.

Russell at this point had just been moved out to the high post in the Celtic offense and was still thinking more offensively. He was second on the Celts in FG% and 3rd in scoring at 17/34/3 but again, the Celtics won with defense, not their collection of low percentage gunners (Heinsohn .400, Cousy .371!, Sharman .422, Ramsey .407). Only Sam Jones shot decently (.449) and he only averaged 15 ppg, 6th on the team. Nor were Heinsohn, Cousy, Sharman, Ramsey, and Jones known for their defense; KC Jones playing 21mpg, Satch Sanders playing 16, and Jim Lotcutoff playing 15 were solid defensive roleplayers but none of Russell’s 5 teammates playing 25mpg or up were particularly good defenders. IT was basically all Russell.

The Hawks had their typical great frontline led by Bob Pettit (28/20/3 @ .446 and 10.6fta/game; but also starring Cliff Hagan (who made the running hookshot that Heinsohn was also known for work better) at 22/9/5 and outside shooting center Clyde Lovellette at 22/10/3. They also had Lenny Wilkens but he really wasn’t very impressive – the Hawks never had decent guard play (12/5/3 on .425 – the rest of the Hawks guards all shot under .400 though Wilkens was the lowest assist average of their 3 guard rotation!)

The Warriors had Wilt (38/27/2 @.504 with 13fta) scoring and rebounding (though not passing and his defense was more intimidating than consistent – think early Shaq). Beside him were wing F Paul Arizin (23/9/2 at .425 with 8fta) and Tom Gola (14/9/4 @.447 but only 4fta) one of the first big guards (6-7 or 6-8 in sneakers) plus poor shooting assist man Guy Rodgers. They never had much in the way of PFs or depth though and this year was no exception. (One of their weak reserves was Andy Johnson – (9.6@.359) next year the second best player on Walt Bellamy’s miserable Chi expansion team).

Other players of note though on losing teams were

Rookie Oscar Robertson (31/10/10 on .472 with 11fta)
His teammate Jack Twyman (25/9/3 on .488 with 7fta)
Elgin Baylor in LA (35/10/5 on .430with 12fta) West wasn’t much
Bailey Howell in Detroit (22/14/2 on .460 with 10fta)

Easy #1 this year in Bill Russell
2. Wilt
3. Pettit
4. Baylor
5. Oscar

HM Cliff Hagan

[bastillon]

Oscar's team was TOTAL crap. you can tell that just by looking at 60 Royals record... 19 Wins, meeeh.

Philly had 24 combined DWS. rather unimpressive - Wilt was most definitely NOT a defensive anchor that year. he was pretty good though.

Wilt's team is really unimpressive this year. I just analysed their yearly records before Wilt. that team was fairly stable with Arizin and Gola. when they still had Neil Johnston, they were little above average. losing him, they were a bad team, though obviously nothing epically bad here. but Warriors weren't very good this season either - they had .9 SRS which makes them a 42W by pythagorean W-L. going from -2.28 to 0.9 is still impact, but really nothing to brag about.

+ playoff sweep... I'm curious about what happened there. this really hurts Wilt. my first impression looking at their playoff stats is how terrible they were on offense. their combined playoff OWS is -0.1. per 82 games they'd win -3 games with that efficiency.

Pettit needs to be discussed more. I have no idea what was his impact. his team was great though. look at what happened between 61 and 62: injuries hit them and they went down by 6 SRS (from 2.98 in 61 to -2.91 in 62). it's pretty obvious to me his teammates must have been great in 61.

we should look at Pettit's 65 season to put things into context. he missed 30 games that year so we could see his +/- numbers. that's up to Regulator or Elgee, if they are willing to do that. it'd be great.

I don't know whether I'll come back before final voting so:

1.Russell

2.Baylor
3.Pettit
4.Oscar
5.Wilt

2-5 are pretty much equal. Baylor got the spot because of his sick PS (38/15/5 on 54% TS), Pettit for leading his team to the finals and anchoring them really well, Oscar triple double rookie season with nice 3 SRS impact, Wilt played probably the best RS but playoffs really hurt him - swept by a <.500 team.

Russell was obviously on a different level.

[Doctor MJ]

we should look at Pettit's 65 season to put things into context. he missed 30 games that year so we could see his +/- numbers. that's up to Regulator or Elgee, if they are willing to do that. it'd be great.

'65 was Pettit's final year, and he was clearly a fraction of his peak self. Using +/- from that year to get an idea of peak Pettit really isn't going to tell ya much.

[TrueLAfan]

1. Russell. Easy number 1 in a good year for him.
2. Elgin. In a pretty tight pack, Elgin had the best post season. Great year by a player who hasn't been getting as much attention as (maybe) he should.
3. Wilt. Team success vs. perosnal success...struggles with #3 and #4. the Hawks did better than the Warriors, but Hagan was better than Arizin this year. And the rest of the Hawks were stronger than the rest of the Warriors. And the non-Wilt warriors shot uner 33% in the post seaosn. Ebven in the free shooting early 60s, that won't get it done. Wilt was good, though.
4. Pettit. More team success in the playoffs. Shot poorly as an idnvidual, but brought it(12 FTA/game) in the playoffs. #3 and #4 are, effectively, a dead heat in my opinion.
5. Oscar. Great year...unfortunately, in a season where four other guys had great years. All the others went to the playoffs, and Oscar had Twyman, Embry and Boozer; the Royals weren't that bad. The team jumped 14 games when Oscar joined...but Embry also became a full-time player, and they added Bob Boozer. 14 games alone for Oscar would put him in the mix at #2 through #4...but I don't think he's responsible for all 14 extra wins.

[ElGee]

1961 Estimated Pace-Adjusted Statistics

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Cincinnati    95.5
2.  Detroit       93.3
3.  Syracuse      92.9
LEAGUE AVG.       91.5
4.  New York      91.2
5.  Philadelphia  90.8
6.  St. Louis     90.7
7.  Los Angeles   90.0
8.  Boston        87.5


DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston        83.4
2.  St. Louis     87.9
3.  Los Angeles   90.1
4.  Philadelphia  90.2
5.  Syracuse      91.3
LEAGUE AVG.       91.5
6.  Detroit       95.2
7.  New York      96.3
8.  Cincinnati    98.3


[semi-sentient]

Final Rankings

1. Bill Russell - Hard to make a case for anyone above him. He had a great individual year to go along with team success.

2. Elgin Baylor - Great individual year, and the only thing keeping me from putting him #1 was the lack of team success during the regular season. Looking at the Lakers roster though, it was pretty bad outside of rookie Jerry West. Still, he was the best post-season player and pushed the Celtics to the limit so I can't put anyone else above him.

3. Wilt Chamberlain - Great stats, but very disappointing ending. I might have given him a pass for the sweep had he actually elevated his game in the playoffs, but he didn't so he comes in behind Baylor.

4. Bob Pettit - This was a tough choice. Pettit got more recognition for his value to the Hawks than Wilt did for the Sixers (MVP voting), and he took his team further in the playoffs. He had more help, and while being the runner-up to the Celtics as opposed to getting swept by a sub .500 team (Wilt) is impressive, Wilt was still better.

5. Oscar Robertson - Amazing season for the rookie, but his team was horrible and didn't make the post-season which prevents him from making up any ground.

[bastillon]

looking at Royals roster, Phil Jordon, as unlikely as it may seem, was crucial player for them. Cincinati had absolutely no size in the paint. in 1960 with Phil Jordon (6'10) playing 2000 MP and Hub Reed (6'9) playing 1800 at least they had guys who somewhat resembled NBA bigs. the year later Jordon and Reed played COMBINED for 2300 MP. that resulted in decreased defensive efficiency. in 60, they had 4.5 team DWS (defensive win shares) dropping off to 1.1 DWS in 61.

on offense Royals improved from 18.3 OWS to 28.9 with Oscar in town and that most likely was the effect of him orchestrating their offense.

look at Twyman: per36 he scored 27.8 on 48.7 TS% in 60 and 24.6 on 53.7% TS in 61. it doesn't tell you the whole story though, because Twyman shot FTs a lot better in 60: 78% to 73% (and I doubt it was anyone's effect). adjusting for same FT efficiency, it's 25 PPG on 54.1% TS.

Oscar, like other great offensive PGs (Magic, Nash), made their teammates better.

neither rookie Bob Boozer playing 20 MPG nor sophomore Embry playing 700 MP more were responsible for that offensive improvement. they were both inefficient players (Boozer 46.8% TS, Embry 46.4% TS as a rookie without Oscar) and offensively boxscore gives us enough data to conclude anything.

Oscar improved them by 10 games on offense easily.

defensively, hard to tell, I'd say he contributed a lot despite the fact that team regressed (size matters - you're most definitely not getting it done defensively with 6'8 bigs). with all that talk about Oscar being an average defender, he was still the strongest wing player in the league, one of the most athletic players, with one of the best vertical leaps. he was a great rebounder too. I'd imagine he was hardly "average" when "average" meant at the time 3 inches smaller, 30 pounds lighter and white.

[Doctor MJ]

1961 Estimated Pace-Adjusted Statistics

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Cincinnati    95.5
2.  Detroit       93.3
3.  Syracuse      92.9
LEAGUE AVG.       91.5
4.  New York      91.2
5.  Philadelphia  90.8
6.  St. Louis     90.7
7.  Los Angeles   90.0
8.  Boston        87.5


DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston        83.4
2.  St. Louis     87.9
3.  Los Angeles   90.1
4.  Philadelphia  90.2
5.  Syracuse      91.3
LEAGUE AVG.       91.5
6.  Detroit       95.2
7.  New York      96.3
8.  Cincinnati    98.3


Interesting, so now the Lakers' strength is their defense, and their offense is terrible.

[Doctor MJ]

Also will be very interested to see Cincy's ORtg & Drtg in upcoming years.

[bastillon]

Also will be very interested to see Cincy's ORtg & Drtg in upcoming years.

read my post for that. team DWS/OWS is basically the same thing. much more size = better defense. no Oscar = a lot worse offense.

[Doctor MJ]

Also will be very interested to see Cincy's ORtg & Drtg in upcoming years.

read my post for that. team DWS/OWS is basically the same thing. much more size = better defense. no Oscar = a lot worse offense.

Good point.

[shawngoat23]

1. Bill Russell
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bob Pettit
5. Oscar Robertson

The impact Russell had on the team's defensive stats--and their overall performance, judging based on how horrible that offense was--is too big to ignore. He gets my nod at #1.

I was considering going Wilt at #2, as he had a slightly better regular season than Baylor with a better team record, but I'll give the edge to Baylor on the strength of an excellent postseason performance.

Pettit gets the nod over Oscar. Oscar's stats are probably slightly more impressive, but Pettit was also a stud and led his team to the Finals (although he definitely had a stronger cast than Oscar did).

[Dr Positivity]

1. Russell - Holy crap at the Celtics dominating the league/winning the title with an ORTG THAT bad. 2.5 points worse than 2nd last and 4 points worse than league average? And they didn't really have much defense aside from Russ. This is one of the biggest one man band titles in history.

2. Oscar - Statistically crazy off the bat, and again Cinci's dominant ORTG and bad DRTG show his impact more than the W/L. Now you can't ignore the pace and offense first focus of the Royals, but still, it's clear he did a lot this year

3. Wilt - Scored more at better efficiency than Baylor and Pettit, rebounded more, probably had biggest defensive impact. Anchored a good team.

4. Baylor - Gets edge over Pettit cause of playoffs

5. Pettit - Great year, but difference in team success compared to above two is supporting cast