Retro POY 1959-60 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of 1959-60.

Schedule will be Mon-Fri, and Thu-Mon. Typically this will be morning to morning.

Some things to start us off:

NBA
The Year in Review http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1960.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1960.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1960.html
Final Box Score http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/playoffs/1960.htm

[Dipper 13]

From The Rivalry: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball


In the locker room before the game between the Warriors and the Hawks, Lovellette and some of his teammates discussed their plans for Chamberlain. "Clyde said he was going to get Wilt," recalled Cal Ramsey, a black player who had joined the team that year. Ramsey concerned for Chamberlain's safety, went up to Wilt before the start of the game. "Be careful," Ramsey said. "They're out to get you." The warning did no good. During the game, Wilt was running up the court when Lovellette came running toward him from the opposite direction and, as they passed, let fly an elbow at Chamberlain's face. The blow, heightened by the momentum of the two big men hurtling toward each other, landed on Chamberlain's chin and drove his jaw upward. Two of his lower front teeth were knocked back and punctured the roof of his mouth. "It really killed him," Ramsey recalled.

The next day, an infection set in, and Wilt's face became so swollen that he had difficulty both eating and sleeping that night. The Warriors, however, needed to leave for Detroit for a game against the Pistons, and Chamberlain was unable to get to a doctor. Philadelphia was in second place, trailing Boston, and coach Neil Johnston was afraid of falling too far behind, so that night he started Chamberlain, who wore a large mask to protect his face. He played the entire game, despite the fact that his head hurt and was swelling up. Afterward, unable to eat solid food, he consumed quantities of orange juice and 7-Up.

The next night, in New York, Chamberlain was hit in the mouth again, this time by Willie Naulls. The team physician, Dr. Si Ball, realized Chamberlain had blood poisoning so acute that Ball was surprised that he had been able to remain on his feet. Furthermore, the infection in his mouth had become so bad that he needed immediate treatment, and an ambulance took him to the hospital. Dental surgery was performed, and by the end of the procedure he had lost a total of four teeth, and was out for three games.

[JordansBulls]

Wilt and Russell are 1 and 2 here with Pettit 3rd. Just the fact Wilt was able to do this as a rookie and won MVP he gets the nod here.

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Pettit
4. Baylor
5. Cousy/Hagan/Gola

The 5th spot is pretty much a crap shoot.

[Mean_Streets]

Final season of Russell vs Wilt. My rankings...

1. Bill Russell (22/35/4 in game 7 of the Finals. More experienced than Wilt)
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bob Pettit
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Bob Cousy

[penbeast0]

One dominant team, the Celtics, three good ones – Philly, St. Louis, Syracuse.

The Celtics are still Bill Russell’s team and that’s why they were champions. He dominated defensively and on the boards and even led the team and was 4th in the league in fg% (this being the last year he played the low post) at 18/24/4 .467fg%/.496 ts% in a league that averaged .410 fg% with an equivalent playoff. Cousy was the second biggest name and led the league in assists though he shot badly in the regular season 19/5/10 .384 fg%/.439 tsp and miserably in the playoffs .305/.350! Heinsohn, Sharman, and Ramsey provided lots of scoring however if at average efficiency, so the Celtics got by with their defense.

The Warriors went from 32 wins to 49 with rookie Wilt Chamberlain added to their core of All-Stars Paul Arizin and Tom Gola. Wilt led the league in scoring and rebounding (though he actually had a lower efficiency than Russell) at 38/27/2 .461fg%/493ts%. He had scoring help from Arizin 22/9/2 on .424/492 (about the same as Heinsohn but with better foul draw) plus big defense and 10 rebounds a game from Gola at guard 15/10/7 on .433/.495 (Gola got some MVP votes, Arizin didn’t). All three were solid in the playoffs too though they couldn’t get past Russell and Boston.

St. Louis had the best 3 man front line and the worst guards in the league. Bob Pettit 26/17/4 on .438/.510, Cliff Hagan 26/11/4 on .464/.525 (both with solid playoffs), and center Clyde Lovellette 21/11/2 on .468/.521 (with outside range but shut down in the playoffs) were terrific but the guards were awful. They brought aged pre-shot clock PG Slater Martin back as their point guard, SG Johnny McCarthy shot .329, and those were those were the highlights.

Syracuse was led by Dolph Schayes, 23/13/3 .401/.496 (but tough defense and a close to 90% FT shooter who could draw fouls) and George Yardley 20/8/2 /453/.522. They also had HOF center Red Kerr, Hal Greer, Larry Costello and Dick Barnett for a deep team.

The other 5 teams were far below the level of the top 4 although Elgin Baylor 30/16/4 at .424/469, Jack Twyman 31/9/4 at .422/.487 had big years and Gene Shue and Richie Guerin both made the All-NBA team with Cousy and Sharman.

1. Clearly Russell, though Wilt was the year’s big story
2. Wilt, more dominant than Pettit
3. Pettit
Now it gets more difficult . . .
4. Dolph Schayes
5. Cliff Hagan

HM Elgin Baylor

[penbeast0]

From The Rivalry: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball


In the locker room before the game between the Warriors and the Hawks, Lovellette and some of his teammates discussed their plans for Chamberlain. "Clyde said he was going to get Wilt," recalled Cal Ramsey, a black player who had joined the team that year. Ramsey concerned for Chamberlain's safety, went up to Wilt before the start of the game. "Be careful," Ramsey said. "They're out to get you." The warning did no good. During the game, Wilt was running up the court when Lovellette came running toward him from the opposite direction and, as they passed, let fly an elbow at Chamberlain's face. The blow, heightened by the momentum of the two big men hurtling toward each other, landed on Chamberlain's chin and drove his jaw upward. Two of his lower front teeth were knocked back and punctured the roof of his mouth. "It really killed him," Ramsey recalled.

The next day, an infection set in, and Wilt's face became so swollen that he had difficulty both eating and sleeping that night. The Warriors, however, needed to leave for Detroit for a game against the Pistons, and Chamberlain was unable to get to a doctor. Philadelphia was in second place, trailing Boston, and coach Neil Johnston was afraid of falling too far behind, so that night he started Chamberlain, who wore a large mask to protect his face. He played the entire game, despite the fact that his head hurt and was swelling up. Afterward, unable to eat solid food, he consumed quantities of orange juice and 7-Up.

The next night, in New York, Chamberlain was hit in the mouth again, this time by Willie Naulls. The team physician, Dr. Si Ball, realized Chamberlain had blood poisoning so acute that Ball was surprised that he had been able to remain on his feet. Furthermore, the infection in his mouth had become so bad that he needed immediate treatment, and an ambulance took him to the hospital. Dental surgery was performed, and by the end of the procedure he had lost a total of four teeth, and was out for three games.

So much for the old college spirit since Wilt had followed Lovellette to Kansas. Wilt hated Lovellette and no wonder; Clyde had a dirty rep and this is a good example (sorry Dad, I know he was a frat brother of yours there but really . . . . )

[Warspite]

Theres an article in Slam that attributes the hit by Lovellette for his death. It says Wilt had almost a dozen oral surgeries and that the blood posioning was never realy resolved. A week before Wilts death he was complaining about his teeth and the pain he was in and it was very unusal because Wilt never complain about pain. The author cites the hit as well as poor medical treatment and Wilts ego/pain tolerance as the cause of death.

I have no desire nor wish to glamourise the toughness of the the era. I just wish they could have played in todays safer era and seen what they could have done. I do dislike that an NBA game is treated as like a frat house reunion between players but I dont want people to try to put each other in the hospital. Surely there is a happy median between opposing players having a slumber party before the games today and the desire to win by any means possible of the past.

[Dipper 13]

Theres an article in Slam that attributes the hit by Lovellette for his death. It says Wilt had almost a dozen oral surgeries and that the blood posioning was never realy resolved. A week before Wilts death he was complaining about his teeth and the pain he was in and it was very unusal because Wilt never complain about pain. The author cites the hit as well as poor medical treatment and Wilts ego/pain tolerance as the cause of death.

A couple other articles on his cause of death:

http://instituteofscience.blogspot.com/ ... nt_27.html

http://ezinearticles.com/?STDs,-Cardiom ... &id=192008

[ElGee]

1960 Estimated Pace-Adjusted Statistics

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  St. Louis     93.6
2.  New York      92.4
2.  Syracuse      92.4
4.  Cincinnati    90.6
LEAGUE AVG.       90.3
5.  Boston        90.2
6.  Detroit       88.9
7.  Philadelphia  87.9
8.  Minneapolis   86.4


DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston        84.2
2.  Philadelphia  85.9
3.  Minneapolis   89.8
4.  Syracuse      90.3
LEAGUE AVG.       90.3
5.  St. Louis     91.4
6.  Detroit       91.6
7.  New York      94.2
8.  Cincinnati    95.7


[lorak]

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Baylor
4. Pettit
5. Schayes

[penbeast0]

Why are the likes of Cousy getting love and not Dolph Schayes whose stats are as impressive, is more efficient, was a much better defender, and who was the best player on the .600 team while Cousy isn't even clearly the #2 player on his (not hard to make arguments for both Sharman and Heinsohn over Cousy)?

[Optimism Prime]

Why are the likes of Cousy getting love and not Dolph Schayes whose stats are as impressive, is more efficient, was a much better defender, and who was the best player on the .600 team while Cousy isn't even clearly the #2 player on his (not hard to make arguments for both Sharman and Heinsohn over Cousy)?

To be fair, Cousy has 3 5th place votes; Schayes has a 4th. So they're currently tied.

[lorak]

Why are the likes of Cousy getting love and not Dolph Schayes whose stats are as impressive, is more efficient, was a much better defender, and who was the best player on the .600 team while Cousy isn't even clearly the #2 player on his (not hard to make arguments for both Sharman and Heinsohn over Cousy)?

1. Schayes had 6 pts in MVP voting. Cousy 66 (more than Baylor!), so at the time he was considered as better player.
2. Cousy was clearly the second best Celtics player. Only Russell played more minutes than Cousy. Besides that year was one of the best in Cousy’s career, 9.5 APG is very impressive in that era.

[penbeast0]

Yes, but we know more now than then and numbers like .370 fg%, .305 for playoffs (TS numbers just as bad) correlate far more strongly to winning than high assist numbers which are basically a low correlation offensive efficiency booster.

Statistical keys to winning:

High efficiency team offense
Turnover differential
Keeping opponents' offensive efficiency down
Rebounding differential

Cousy is a low efficiency offensive player with poor defense who is a decent but not Tom Gola type rebounder and whose turnover numbers we don't know; add to that he had a lousy playoff which the MVP voters couldn't take into account. He does have some value as the perceived leader of the Boston offense which might have led opponents to key on him more and take some defensive pressure off the more efficient shooters like Sharman, Heinsohn (and Russell) but I can't see it as that high. Sharman is probably the second most valuable Celtic this year as the stronger defensive and more efficient shooting Celtic guard but I don't see any of Sharman, Heinsohn, or Cousy as really standing out as a second option.

[lorak]

Ok, you convinced me against Cousy, so he's out of my top 5. But I’m still not sold on Schayes and I leaning towards Hagan or Arizin. Of course they were 2nd options while Schayes probably was the best player in Syracuse. But Nationals strength was offense and the most responsible for that was Costello – very underrated PG, very effective: .523 TS% (3rd in the NBA! He also was 4th in APG). Yardley and Greer also were more efficient than Schayes, so Nationals was overall very well balanced team on offense. However Schayes was the only one who didn’t disappointed in playoffs (well, Greer also didn’t disappointed, but he played less minutes, below 30 per game), so he seems as the most reasonable choice.

[bastillon]

Russell
Wilt
Pettit
Schayes
Hagan

[penbeast0]

Ok, you convinced me against Cousy, so he's out of my top 5. But I’m still not sold on Schayes and I leaning towards Hagan or Arizin. Of course they were 2nd options while Schayes probably was the best player in Syracuse. But Nationals strength was offense and the most responsible for that was Costello – very underrated PG, very effective: .523 TS% (3rd in the NBA! He also was 4th in APG). Yardley and Greer also were more efficient than Schayes, so Nationals was overall very well balanced team on offense. However Schayes was the only one who didn’t disappointed in playoffs (well, Greer also didn’t disappointed, but he played less minutes, below 30 per game), so he seems as the most reasonable choice.

Nice. I tend to wonder whether any of us ever get convinced of anything or whether we just argue for the pleasure of arguing, reading other posts only to get ammo or to see what new points need to be refuted . . . I tend to be that way quite a bit, my mind isn't completely closed but it tends to be a bit on the rigid side though I do enjoy being convinced I'm wrong . . . it just isn't very easy to do even when I am.

Anycase, glad to hear..

[ronnymac2]

Pettit, Russell, Wilt, and Baylor have strong cases for being top four. Gonna have to check the others.

Russell is looking like a solid number one choice. Wilt isn't as good as his numbers suggest. Pretty sure there were points this season where Russell flat out shut him down head-to-head.

[TrueLAfan]

1. Russell
2. Wilt
3. Pettit
4. Hagan
5. Elgin

Never been a Dolph Schayes fan. George Yardley said (to me) that Schayes was considered to be a whiner and was soft when he entered the keague. He got tougher, but became a big(ger) whiner. His post-shot clock rebound numbers are okay, but not great; I really think he’s a player that was better at an old style of basketball. If we go back that far, I’ll consider that…but not here.

Cliff Hagan was a good player, and this was his best year. Good shooter, especially for his time period—tough swingman. I’m likinghim over Elgin this year by a hair. Tough to say. I feel like I (and everyone) am dissing Elgin a little bit here. I dislike it when people look too much at efficiency (which elgin wasn’ty good at) as opposed to results (which Elgin often got). And the Lakers other than Elgin were truly rotten this year. Tough call with Hagan for me.

[ronnymac2]

Final Rankings:

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
Cliff Hagan

HM: Dolph Schayes