Isiah Thomas 1990 or Steve Nash 2006, who was better?

[Laimbeer]

People use nuance to come to conclusions about players. Nash would be significantly more respected if he won a Finals MVP like Wade did...and so would Isiah.

He did. But why bother with trivial stuff like that when we can spin Otrg a half dozen ways?

The ortg isn't being spun Nash's teams are just flat out amazing on offense primarily due to his play

Does anyone here really believe that determining the greater point guard is simply points per possession? You play different styles, different paces, different teammates, and it's that simple? Defense. leadership, intangibles, don't matter?

I'm suggesting the ultimate result of leading a team to playoff success and championships is more important.

[Jimmy76]

I'm suggesting being on the better team doesn't make you the better player contrary to popular belief on realgm

Do you choose

Dumars/Vinne Johnson
Aguire/Rodman
Edwards/Rodman
Laimbeer/Salley

Or

Bell/Barbosa
James Jones/Tim Thomas
Marion/Tim Thomas
Diaw/Marion

Is it even close?

[Warspite]

What good is offense if it doesnt trasnlate into Ws?

Nash has led some of the greatest offensive teams. Hes teams are great on offense and downright offensive on defense.

What many people dont know is that when Chuck Daly started in Detroit the Pistons had one of the GOAT offensive in the history of the NBA. The highest scoring game in the history of the NBA was won a Chuck Daly Detroit Pistons team. The team was high octane high powered offense with 3 20ppg players and Isiah agv 13apg (the single season record). However Isiah and Daly got together and decided that to win they needed defense. So they traded Tripucka (allstar) for Dantley. Dantley was the single greatest player that improved the Pistons defense. Because he shot so many FTs he allowed the Pistons to slow the game and set up there defense. Drafting Salley and Rodman along with the development of Dumars transformed the run and gun Pistons to the Bad Boys.

Nash is great but he cant be Steve Nash in 1990 and so I fail to see why you would choose a player who can only play in one era over a player who can dominate both eras.

[Jimmy76]

Why can't Nash be Steve Nash in 1990?

And the offense did translate into wins and probably the most successful era of the Suns franchise but there's just more to the game than offense

Nash beats out Isiah handily as an offensive player so what is Isiah doing in terms of defense, rebounding, and turnover prevention to make up the gap?

[lorak]

Look, it’s no coincidence that when we are looking at the best offensive teams in history Nash’s teams are right at the top. For example here are top 5 all time:
1. Mavs 2004 +9.2
2. Suns 2005 +8.4
3. Bulls 1997 +7.7
4. Mavs 2002 +7.7
5. Suns 2010 +7.7
Pretty amazing, isn’t it?

Very interesting.

I don't see any of Magic's teams there in your all-time super Otrg teams.

It's not mine - it's Dean Oliver's idea to compare teams that way.

So how does he stack up against Nash?

Very good and much, much better than Isiah.

Steve Nash: +6.2 ORtg per season(11 seasons)
Isiah Thomas: +1.3 (11 seasons)
Magic Johnson: +5.4 (10 seasons)

[lorak]

What many people dont know is that when Chuck Daly started in Detroit the Pistons had one of the GOAT offensive in the history of the NBA. The highest scoring game in the history of the NBA was won a Chuck Daly Detroit Pistons team. The team was high octane high powered offense with 3 20ppg players and Isiah agv 13apg (the single season record). .

One of the arguments against Nash is that he played fast paced game, while Isiah slow paced. It's not true (at least if we compare 1990 Pistons and 2006 Suns, because their pace was identical). But let's see how good was Pistons offense led by Isiah when his team played face paced game (105 possessions per game! Nash's teams never were faster than 96.7). According to Thomas supporters that should make his life easier in terms of offensive result. Well, in 1985 (the year Warspite is talking about) Pistons offense was +1.7 ORtg.
So no Warspite, it's wasn't one of the GOAT offensive in the history of the NBA and super fast tempo of the game didn't helped to make this offense better.

[Brenice]

Why do people jock Wade for winning a ring with the help of the refs, but don't use the "ring" criteria about Nash?

People use nuance to come to conclusions about players. Nash would be significantly more respected if he won a Finals MVP like Wade did...and so would Isiah.

Isiah was FINALS MVP in 1990.

[Brenice]

I thought rules were changed to produce more exciting OFFENSIVE games. You know, more scoring. You know, to change the game from the way it was played during Isiah's Pistons. No handchecking and stuff like that. I wonder if that helped Nash's game and stats and Otr's and stuff. The fact is Isiah was better all around and close to equal offensively, as he holds at least 1 offensive scoring record in the playoffs. That being points in a quarter. You remember the game which also helped to show his toughness. You know the game where he played that quarter on a severly sprained ankle that occurred in the previous quarter.

Isiah hands down.

[Doctor MJ]

Why do people jock Wade for winning a ring with the help of the refs, but don't use the "ring" criteria about Nash?

People use nuance to come to conclusions about players. Nash would be significantly more respected if he won a Finals MVP like Wade did...and so would Isiah.

He did. But why bother with trivial stuff like that when we can spin Otrg a half dozen ways?

Isiah was FINALS MVP in 1990.

I'll be more clear. He didn't win a Finals MVP in the manner that Wade did. Wade put up one of the great playoffs & finals long performances in all of history.

To be clear, Isiah has one of the great single-game performances of all time. It's fantastic, but it's not the same.

[Doctor MJ]

What good is offense if it doesnt trasnlate into Ws?

Nash's teams win plenty. They aren't mired in mediocrity.

Not saying winning titles wouldn't have been better, but the effect of the great offense is great.

[Doctor MJ]

I thought rules were changed to produce more exciting OFFENSIVE games. You know, more scoring. You know, to change the game from the way it was played during Isiah's Pistons. No handchecking and stuff like that. I wonder if that helped Nash's game and stats and Otr's and stuff. The fact is Isiah was better all around and close to equal offensively, as he holds at least 1 offensive scoring record in the playoffs. That being points in a quarter. You remember the game which also helped to show his toughness. You know the game where he played that quarter on a severly sprained ankle that occurred in the previous quarter.

Isiah hands down.

Making the league more offense-oriented doesn't make it any easier to stand out relative to the rest of the league.

Having one quarter where you get hot, does not make you "close to equal offensively" as other players who are generally superior. It's great, but if he could do that consistently, he'd have done it, and been the GOAT.

[Brenice]

Well what did Nash do in any playoff that compared to anything Isiah did in the playoffs?

1. Playoff scoring record for a quarter, on a bad ankle to boot.
2. Finals MVP - Embarassed opposing guards who tried in vain to defend him(see Terry Porter), his eyes got big like Drexler's eyes when Jordan was embarassing him. Scored 22 in 1 quarter in Portland.
3. Finals average 27pts, 8 assists, 5 rebounds

Career Average:

Isiah - 20pts, 9.3 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 2.11 steals, 3.76 turnovers,
best year for assists was 13.9, with 21.2 pts, and 4.5 rebounds

Nash - 14.6pts, 8.3 assists, 3 rebounds, 0.8 steals, 2.79 turnovers
best year for assists was 11.6, with 18.6 pts, and 3.5 rebounds

Isiah in an embarassing landslide

[nate33]

For what it's worth, here are the pace-adjusted per-36 minute stats for each player in 2006 and 1990 respectively. I'm not saying stats are everything, but it's useful to at least look at an apples-to-apples statistical comparison that is adjusted for the number of possessions.

Code: Select all

Player           PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO  3P% eFG%  TS%  PER
nash,steve      18.1  3.5 11.4  0.7  0.1  3.7 .455 .613 .654 23.7
thomas,isiah    17.8  3.7 10.2  1.7  0.2  4.3 .292 .449 .507 17.4

Nash's efficiency is unreal. A 61.3% eFG%? Are you kidding me?

[Jimmy76]

An eFG% difference of 16% and a TS% difference of 15% is probably the biggest difference I have ever seen in a player comparison

IMO that means more than waxing poetic about one quarter of scoring and honestly people only seem to bring up random scoring outbursts and nostalgic odes when the rest of their case is extremely weak. If Isiah had better boxscore stats they would be pointed to as absolute proof Isiah had the better year.

[Brenice]

I was not comparing IT 1990 against SN 2006. SN 2006 was better. Career-wise, Isiah.

[Doctor MJ]

I was not comparing IT 1990 against SN 2006. SN 2006 was better. Career-wise, Isiah.

Interesting, I didn't realize we'd gone off topic.

[Doctor MJ]

Well what did Nash do in any playoff that compared to anything Isiah did in the playoffs?

1. Playoff scoring record for a quarter, on a bad ankle to boot.
2. Finals MVP - Embarassed opposing guards who tried in vain to defend him(see Terry Porter), his eyes got big like Drexler's eyes when Jordan was embarassing him. Scored 22 in 1 quarter in Portland.
3. Finals average 27pts, 8 assists, 5 rebounds

Career Average:

Isiah - 20pts, 9.3 assists, 3.6 rebounds, 2.11 steals, 3.76 turnovers,
best year for assists was 13.9, with 21.2 pts, and 4.5 rebounds

Nash - 14.6pts, 8.3 assists, 3 rebounds, 0.8 steals, 2.79 turnovers
best year for assists was 11.6, with 18.6 pts, and 3.5 rebounds

Isiah in an embarassing landslide

What has Nash done in the playoffs? Well you're right he doesn't have a great finals performance, since he's never been there. Of course, nobody gets there with out their teammates.

Nash did have a 30/14 series that was pretty mind blowing though. Let's also consider these guys best playoff years statistically. I'll use PER just because a composite stat make that easier:

Best playoffs between these two:
1. Nash '05 23.4
2. Isiah '85 22.7
3. Isiah '87 22.6
4. Nash '10 22.5
5. Nash '07 21.9
6. Nash '06 21.3
7. Isiah '86 21.1
8. Isiah '90 21.0
9. Isiah '88 20.7
10. Isiah 84 20.6

Not saying Nash blows him out of the water here, but it's certainly not a landslide for Isiah.

Your mentioning of career stats seems strange. Generally I don't put much stock in career stats, but I understand if others do. Nash's stats are hurt by his first few years where he wasn't given a chance to play, and since he's not 36 and still going strong, he's clearly had enough time as a starter for us to at least only use that when trying to a career-ish stat comparison.

If you take their 10 best years:

Isiah 20.1 PPG on 52.2% TS with 9.7 APG
Nash 16.8 PPG on 61.3% TS with 9.6 APG

Who wins from that comparison? Debatable.

[Brenice]

If you take their 10 best years:

Isiah 20.1 PPG on 52.2% TS with 9.7 APG
Nash 16.8 PPG on 61.3% TS with 9.6 APG

Who wins from that comparison? Debatable.

I would wonder what the stats would be like under the same rules. I tend to favor the rules of Zeke's era vs the no handchecking, can't touch the player when he is facing you up while dribbling rule that is now.

It was harder to penetrate then. That doesn't mean Nash wouldn't have been effective at a 61.3% TS rate, I don't know. But the rules were changed to help offense. Clearly.

[Malinhion]

Defense wins championships.

[Doctor MJ]

If you take their 10 best years:

Isiah 20.1 PPG on 52.2% TS with 9.7 APG
Nash 16.8 PPG on 61.3% TS with 9.6 APG

Who wins from that comparison? Debatable.

I would wonder what the stats would be like under the same rules. I tend to favor the rules of Zeke's era vs the no handchecking, can't touch the player when he is facing you up while dribbling rule that is now.

It was harder to penetrate then. That doesn't mean Nash wouldn't have been effective at a 61.3% TS rate, I don't know. But the rules were changed to help offense. Clearly.

League average:

'89-90 53.7% TS, 108.1 team ORtg
'95-96 53.6% TS, 106.2 team ORtg

It's really important to understand precisely when changes happened. Isiah didn't peak in an era dominated by defense, that was the NEXT era. 80s NBA is actually known for offensive ease, and ridiculous assist numbers. It was the 90s where hand checking started to get really abused, which eventually resulted in the last of many clarifications. (Hand checking was never supposed to allow you to impede the offensive player, the league kept trying to crack down to make sure that players didn't use it as such until they finally snapped and had the epiphany "Wait a minute, the main reason anybody hand checks is to impede, let's just cut that out altogether)

The bottom line is that Isiah was never a guy who made shots with strong efficiency. Isiah tends to hover around the 50th percentile on that front, while Nash is at about the 99th despite uping his volume significantly when the game is on the line.