Kareem's Defense

[tsherkin]

I decided to create this because bastillon has been posting about the same thing in multiple threads, and I can't imagine it isn't fatiguing.

So let's keep all discussion pertaining to whether or not Kareem's D was overrated in this thread, rather than letting it flow over into the two or three other threads.

bast's contention is that Kareem was never really the head of an elite defense in the way that some of his all-time contemporaries were and that his teams consistently underperformed in team DWS, among other things, and that this is the indication that Kareem's defense wasn't as good as some of those other players.

Discuss!

[tsherkin]

Just for the sake of completeness, here are a couple of bast's posts.

I wouldn't even hesitate before taking Kareem.

Eaton was a fantastic shot-blocker and an impactful defender but in no way as useful as prime Kareem.

of course this has absolutely NO SUPPORT in team DRtg as you could easily make a conclusion that Kareem wasn't even in Eaton's league... when Jazz were rocking TOP1-2 DRtg yearly, Kareem's teams were little above average for vast majority of his prime. even taking for granted that KAJ's teammates sucked and Eaton had some epic defenders around him, Kareem still has a long way to go. he never anchored so great defensive team like Eaton's Jazz.

look at this:

Not really. Moses was a better rebounder and that's it. Kareem was light-years ahead on defense and that alone seals it.

[...]I don't think 80s KAJ was dominant at all so light-years is probably stretching it a little bit.

Code: Select all

    year       combined DWS
    70             20.7
    71             23.7
    72             28.8
    73             33.3
    74             30.6
    75             19.4
    76             19.1
    77             21.8
    78             20.0
    79             22.7
    80             23.6

21 DWS is league average defense. 8 of these teams were right around average defensively. Bucks 72-74 weren't all-time great either, they were just one-of-the-best-level. name any great defender (Russ, Dwight, Thurmond, Mutombo, Zo, Ben Wallace, Duncan, Hakeem) it just doesn't happen.

only KG had it somewhat similar, but there are 2 significant differences:

-Cassell/Hudson-Peeler/Gill-Szczerbiak aren't anywhere near as good as Kareem's teammates who were usually average/decent defenders in general

-08 Celtics had 41 DWS, 09 Celtics were right around 40+ level before KG's injury and last year's Celtics also played on that level when it mattered (and when they weren't demolished by injuries). none of Kareem's teams ever approached that level

I'm seriously questioning Kareem's defensive rep. his teams performed way too poorly to consider him all-time great defender. in his defensive prime only 3 teams played significantly above average and weren't all-time dominant either. that's just not enough.

[tsherkin]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1056614&p=25099920#p25099920

Kareem doesn't really belond to that group. his teams were most of the time right around average defensively and nothing justifies him given all the circumstances. he never anchored all-time defense either.

viewtopic.php?p=25067288#p25067288

Wilt wasn't consistently great defender either. his teams were dominant in 64 (Thurmond season) and 68. 72 and 73 Lakers were awesome for their times but nowhere near all-time level so that's hardly any evidence for Wilt in this discussion.

let's take a look at Hakeem:

Code: Select all

        year       combined DWS
        84             19.1
        85             24.0
        86             19.5
        87             26.8
        88             25.9
        89             27.6
        90             31.7
        91             29.6
        92             20.4
        93             27.1
        94             31.8

pretty consistent. 84 was before he was in town. Hakeem missed some games in 86, 91 and 92 (and 95 actually, too). wonder how that affected team DRtg. pretty consistent overall. after 94 Rockets were never healthy enough to compete defensively.

would be great if Stern, Elgee or Regular could find these games and check out the +/-.

anyway, Hakeem never dominated at all-time level, but he didn't have very competent defensive teammates either. Horry was great, McCray was great, but who else ? Kenny Smith was laughable, Cassell wasn't any better, old Drexler was respectable at best, Thorpe was poor etc. there was simply not enough to create a defensive dynasty with Hakeem alone. that's quite a testimony to how poor Rockets management was.

just looking briefly at Mutombo, it seems like he was in 20-25 range a lot more than Hakeem, Eaton or Wilt. he had couple of 30+ DWS season though. I guess he's quite similar to Kareem in that sense.

I'm more interested in Thurmond though...

[tsherkin]

Thurmond:

Code: Select all

    year       combined DWS
    64             37.3
    65             25.0
    66             22.2
    67             29.7
    68             28.7
    69             28.7
    70             24.5
    71             17.3
    72             29.7
    73             29.0
    74             18.7
    75             29.6

notes:
64 was his rookie year. Warriors tremendously improved defensively, but Wilt's higher intensity is considered to have affected that team more. 65 was tanking, probably. after Wilt's fail season and his trade for a bunch of crap, Warriors had no franchise player. they got TOP2 picks in 65 draft. I wouldn't put much thought on that year.

here come the injuries:
66 - 73 games
67 - 65
68 - 51
69 - 71
70 - 43

this is key period to analyse. we can easily predict his impact by looking how his team did without him.

67:

Nate Thurmond

Ran the +/- for Thurmond:

w/out Thurmond - 119.1 ppg 126.6 opp ppg
with Thurmond - 123.2 ppg 117.8 opp ppg

That's a monstrous +12.9. It should be noted that the number is exaggerated by a pretty difficult schedule (SRS 1.13, 9H 6A).

8.8 pts lost less with him playing. that's pretty nasty impact right here.

[pgSLIM]

Dude was skinny 225 (&athletic) when he came in the league.

Kareem got scored on a lot during the championship years, well he was 260 & in his late 30s, to be expected. He was still the go to scorer late in games in the 80s when he had played 22 years in the league and even then few centers were more athletic than him even in his later years.

Contemporarily, athletically he was like lankier Pau Gasol at 7'2. (without the flopping)

Well we all know this will devolve into "he cant guard prime Shaq". Well really who could?
And also can Shaq guard the Skyhook?

In the end does it really matter? the man has 5 championships.

[tsherkin]

Not to nit-pick, but Kareem only played 20 seasons in the NBA. And he has 6 championships.

[Dr Positivity]

Isn't he KG's biggest fan? It's hard to argue Kareem's d is overrated cause he didn't anchor elite DRTGs consistently, but then give full credit to KG when those Wolves teams were 15thish defensively most years... in fact the difference between the Wolves and Spurs was always on the defensive end, Minny outperformed them offensively most of the time

I'm not seeing much difference between 70s Kareem and 00s KG in terms of team defense and teammates.

[pgSLIM]

Not to nit-pick, but Kareem only played 20 seasons in the NBA. And he has 6 championships.

That's an even better ratio GOAT

[druggas]

Having watched Kareem since his college days, I'd have to say he was not a beast on defense.

But, he was the first option on every one of his teams. He didn't get to rest on offense like some so called great defenders. How many teams can you think of where their center was their best offensive player?

When Kareem got pissed off, then he became a defensive beast. Didn't happen that often.

[microfib4thewin]

I thought everyone already had bastillion added to their ignore list. This is the same guy who called TLAF a bandwagon Laker fan because he argued for Kobe once.

[ahonui06]

Not to nit-pick, but Kareem only played 20 seasons in the NBA. And he has 6 championships.

That's an even better ratio GOAT

Bill Russell played 13 seasons in the NBA. And he has 11 championships.

That's an even better ratio. GOAT

[Minge]

Kareem had elite height, at 7’2”, with long arms, great lift, and a strong base; but he didn’t have a great second and third jump like Moses and Hakeem, which enabled them to be great rebounders. However, I’d make the point, rebounds are the most misrepresented statistic in all of basketball – usually grabbed on the weak-side as opposed to “anchoring” on the strong-side. I’ve read a quote being critical of Rodman disregarding defensive assignments favoring pursuing rebounds (ie. stat padding) – in defeat, took on a “selfish” connotation. So, I don’t knock Kareem for his poor rebound rates, when he was anchoring the strong-side, with Magic rebounding on the weak-side, which promoted their fast break – in essence offense being the best defense. Also, Kareem contested perimeter shots out to 15’-17’ and recovered, but any further, 18’-22’, he would leak out for a transition opportunity. In that case it was a “smart” gamble – the team would fast break after made baskets – at worst, it is trading baskets, but still contesting the shot. I had been openly critical of Kareem being late, on offense, or even resting on offense (not even crossing midcourt) but that could have been strategy to draw an illegal D. I’ve seen Eaton masquerade as a guard 40-feet from the basket, to draw illegal D – also, iirc Hakeem was called for illegal D when Kareem was, late on offense, at midcourt. Of course, with a legal zone that strategy would hurt his team, but you have to look through the prism of the era he played. The knock I do hold against Kareem, which makes me hesitant of giving him an “elite” label was his inability to make his man disappear – for instance Wilt, in the ’72 playoffs, made Kareem disappear in the second half, Wilt blocked several of his hook shots, which stagnated their halfcourt offense. I’d also mention switching or ability to guard multiple positions, which was Magic’s best asset as a defender, was not Kareem’s strength – for instance Russell, in the ’62 playoffs, made the switch to Elgin and held him down in final periods, which was when Logo took over anyway – also, Hakeem, in the ’86 playoffs, limited Worthy and wreaked havoc gambling around the 3-pt line on the perimeter. In those regards, Kareem was an “above average” defender, not “elite” – but as mentioned above, sometimes offense is the best defense. Kareem with the skyhook reduced the energy required to create high percentage scoring opportunities for himself while his man worked harder on both ends, which limited his man’s effectiveness. I have clips of Heinsohn detailing Kareem’s role as an anchor, specifically in 1983. I may edit this post.

[springz]

When Kareem was in his first year at UCLA, he was on the freshman team (they didn't allow freshman on varsity)

The varsity team went undefeated that regular season and were ranked #1

The varsity team played the freshman on their home court, and the freshman won 75-60

The moral of the story: Sure, he allowed the varsity team to drop 60, which isn't that incredible of defence. but he helped light up 75 on those bitches.

[Luv those Knicks]

Kareem had elite height, at 7’2”, with long arms, great lift, and a strong base; but he didn’t have a great second and third jump like Moses and Hakeem, which enabled them to be great rebounders. However, I’d make the point, rebounds are the most misrepresented statistic in all of basketball – usually grabbed on the weak-side as opposed to “anchoring” on the strong-side. I’ve read a quote being critical of Rodman disregarding defensive assignments favoring pursuing rebounds (ie. stat padding) – in defeat, took on a “selfish” connotation. So, I don’t knock Kareem for his poor rebound rates, when he was anchoring the strong-side, with Magic rebounding on the weak-side, which promoted their fast break – in essence offense being the best defense. Also, Kareem contested perimeter shots out to 15’-17’ and recovered, but any further, 18’-22’, he would leak out for a transition opportunity. In that case it was a “smart” gamble – the team would fast break after made baskets – at worst, it is trading baskets, but still contesting the shot. I had been openly critical of Kareem being late, on offense, or even resting on offense (not even crossing midcourt) but that could have been strategy to draw an illegal D. I’ve seen Eaton masquerade as a guard 40-feet from the basket, to draw illegal D – also, iirc Hakeem was called for illegal D when Kareem was, late on offense, at midcourt. Of course, with a legal zone that strategy would hurt his team, but you have to look through the prism of the era he played. The knock I do hold against Kareem, which makes me hesitant of giving him an “elite” label was his inability to make his man disappear – for instance Wilt, in the ’72 playoffs, made Kareem disappear in the second half, Wilt blocked several of his hook shots, which stagnated their halfcourt offense. I’d also mention switching or ability to guard multiple positions, which was Magic’s best asset as a defender, was not Kareem’s strength – for instance Russell, in the ’62 playoffs, made the switch to Elgin and held him down in final periods, which was when Logo took over anyway – also, Hakeem, in the ’86 playoffs, limited Worthy and wreaked havoc gambling around the 3-pt line on the perimeter. In those regards, Kareem was an “above average” defender, not “elite” – but as mentioned above, sometimes offense is the best defense. Kareem with the skyhook reduced the energy required to create high percentage scoring opportunities for himself while his man worked harder on both ends, which limited his man’s effectiveness. I have clips of Heinsohn detailing Kareem’s role as an anchor, specifically in 1983. I may edit this post.

Just want to add on Hakeem (not Kareem), that, game 6, 1994 playoffs, Knicks up 3 games to 2. John Starks was hot all game and he takes a last second 3 pointer for the win and Hakeem, like 21 feet from the basket, blocks the shot.


As the pain has faded from that painful loss, I have a boatload of respect for Hakeem for that play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzUv5_YFhPI



I don't see Kareem or Ewing getting that block.

[JustAwesome]

Ewing is an underrated defender. Still better than 90% of the centers that we have today. Sure, he wouldn't have made that block that you speak of, but that doesn't take away from his abilities. Olajuwon was just a different beast from the rest of the world.

[Luv those Knicks]

Ewing is an underrated defender. Still better than 90% of the centers that we have today. Sure, he wouldn't have made that block that you speak of, but that doesn't take away from his abilities. Olajuwon was just a different beast from the rest of the world.

I agree. Ewing's underrated overall on this board, and young ewing might have made that block. Just not 1994 Ewing.

[tsherkin]

Pre-93 Ewing MIGHT have made the block.

He was still a phenomenal defender, though, for a long time. That was his main attribute. Some seem to forget, seeing his 28+ ppg season in hindsight, that he was hailed as "Bill Russell with more offense" coming out of college.

[Malinhion]

Not to nit-pick, but Kareem only played 20 seasons in the NBA. And he has 6 championships.

Go Bucks.

[tsherkin]

Like I said, got to sneak that one in there. It was in his second season, too, which is even nuttier.

[Warspite]

The best def play IMHO is to score on your opponet and draw fouls. KAJ did that very well. Theres absolutley nothing wrong with not being Bill Russell or Hakeem or Deke on defense. His FG% combined with volume allowed him to be more effective while not playing as well.

Mutombo avg 11ppg realy has to play very well on def to win his matchup while KAJ avg nearly 30ppg realy doesnt have to anchor as great a def and Im sure thats why his teams werent so dominate at def.

If Deke is your C and hes not a offensive threat you as the coach realy have to stress defense because you know your offense is going to be sub par.

If KAJ is your C and hes a Offensive monster then you can stress a more balance approach and concentrate on all facets and play differant styles. Your not locked into trying to grind out Ws when you have a C that can avg 30ppg at shoots 60% from the field.