Preseason: Toronto@Phoenix 7pm

[Joe Buddy]

They're salesmen - they are likely under orders to play up the "New Beginning" Raptors and get some asses in the seats for the season. Jack Armstrong is very annoying, the colour guy



had to laugh, though - Matt the announcer described it as the 'dawning of a new error for the Toronto raptors' in the pre-game

Freudian slip -

You might be the only person ever to find Armstrong annoying. You sure you don't mean Rautins?

[Joe Buddy]

Well I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about all the body humping, pushing, shoving, grabbing, hand checking around the half court line and so forth, that they were allowed to do all game. And then the touch fouls called on the other end.

As far as the slip by Grant, I agree not a foul, but the three fouls that Evans did before that slip that happened while Grant was trying to get position, should at least equal one, don't you think?

Oh well, what is done is done. Good luck to your Raps, and I hope we can get a fair game next time, and I hope we are on your level of competitive spirit.

Oh that's called defense....Celtic's style.

[SciencePiggy]

RE: The 'biased' refs:

In general, I believe most of us Raptors' fans have realised that the team that takes the more aggressive stance on defence will get the benefit more often than not. We have had to watch 'soft euro' teams perform for the last 3 years and have witnessed many nights where we would pick up ticky-tack fouls while our opponents would piledrive us into the court with a no-call or a call against us, especially against teams like Boston, Cleveland or LA Lakers. I'm just happy that this season we seem to be moving away from this mentality even if we do start picking up more fouls. The way a team plays dictates how the refs call the game.

Also note (even though it wasn't an issue in this game, maybe with Lopez) the role players with bad demeanour on the court who bitch and whine about calls more often will get more called on them out of spite.

Good luck to the Suns and Steve Nash (minus Hedo) in the season and let's see if the butt-slapping fest between Reggie Evans and Grant Hill continues next week. Both players seemed like they enjoyed it too much...

I can see that, and have seen that for a long time here in PHX, but it doesn't make it right. Compound that with the less aggressive team trying to fight back, and get the touch fouls on the other side. It just means the refs don't do their job. They are so focused on T'ing someone up for saying anything, instead of calling a good game. A foul is a foul, it doesn't matter which team or which player. And a ref shouldn't show any bias towards a player or team. If they can't go into a game with an open mind and a clean slate, then they shouldn't be a ref.

I totally get that they are human, but they chose that job, and they should know the rules.

The other problem I have with that is it is a poor example for kids and young players. Players shouldn't have tenure. For example, when Lawal stood straight up, and was hit in the chest by Banks. What was Lawal supposed to do? He did what he has been taught. He had great position, took it right in the chest. Is he just supposed to learn that because he is a rookie, he won't be given a fair game? And he was getting hammered on the other end.

Preseason or not, these refs suck, and they continue to get worse. Focusing on back talk instead of calling a foul a foul. In a game where TOR was clearly over physical, they still went to the line 22 more times on many touch fouls. Ejecting guys that were tapping each other's butts, and smiling. I was watching the game, and I still don't know why Lopez got ejected. Just bad reffing all the way around.

As for the clown who suggested I blamed the loss on the refs, meh. I don't think the Suns would have won that game, but with a fairly called game, it would have been a much closer score. And more fun to watch. I watch the NBA because it supposed to be the highest level of basketball. Preseason is for learning, evaluating, and teaching. These refs did nothing to help that. Guys were being bumped and pushed around the half court line, hand checked, grabbed and held. It looked like a bad high school game, or a prison cell scene.

The part that will make me even more mad, is when the young Suns try and play like TOR did, and they will get called at every turn, T'd up and confused. No valuable lesson learned here.

I don't think bassmastert was implying that letting the aggressive team set the tone is "right", just that it happens. If they can continue the aggression into the season it will be interesting to see how the refs handle a young, starless, aggressive team. Are last year's Bucks comparable? I didn't follow them.

I'd bet they allow the physicality against bottom-feeding to midling teams but against the Lakers/Heat/etc change their tune right quick. Did I mention that I also think NBA officiating is a complete joke?

[RunDogGun]

I don't think bassmastert was implying that letting the aggressive team set the tone is "right", just that it happens. If they can continue the aggression into the season it will be interesting to see how the refs handle a young, starless, aggressive team. Are last year's Bucks comparable? I didn't follow them.

I'd bet they allow the physicality against bottom-feeding to midling teams but against the Lakers/Heat/etc change their tune right quick. Did I mention that I also think NBA officiating is a complete joke?

I wasn't implying that he felt it was right or wrong. I also don't mind the teams being aggressive. I just mind when it is one sided, and when and if the other team tries the same tactic, the refs don't allow that. It becomes one sided reffing. Which bassmaster thought was happening to the old Raps.

Now it would be fine if I was playing a video game, and I was playing a modern team verses the Bad Boys of Detriot. And the reffing was applied to the era that those teams played (such as Detriot being allowed to throw people to the ground with little calls.) But that isn't the case. Now a days, teams aren't treated equal, refs and Stern have their favorites. It is just bad basketball. It teaches the kids, that even in sports that are judged by impartial beings, are still unfair. The rich stay rich, and the poor can suck it.

I guess I am just tired of it, and I keep hoping things will change. I hate to think that I wasted 30 years on a sport that is now just WWF, while thinking it was an equal chance of victory. I guess it is why I am a Suns fan. I always felt that they had a chance to win any game, because they can shoot so well. And now that I know games can and are being fixed, and refs that were in contact with Donaghy during his fixing are still reffing today, the Suns always have a chance to out shoot both the refs and their foes. But they shouldn't have to do that.

Donaghy's book was quite the eye opener. While many can say it was all bunk, he made money using the information about the refs(and the NBA itself) to decide points and spreads.

Last night's game was a joke, and it went on the whole game, but many will just see the score and rip the Suns (and their fans.) When most of the ripping will be unjust.

[Calvin Klein]

can we stop with "Nash and Hill are old" posts until they actually start to show it?

Thanks.

[Spicy P]

Raptors fans celebrating a 51 point win like they just won a championship. At the end of the season Suns will be in the playoffs like always while Toronto will be watching our playoffs games on tv fantasizing about their 51 point preseason victory.

Get used to it. That's how Raptors fans are on here. They're the most bipolar fans you'll ever encounter on realgm. After a tiny win streak they'll start discussing playoff contention and then after a blowout loss a few days later they'll start making threads on firing this guy and trading this guy. I'm not like this, but I'm used to it by now.

[Miklo]

They're the most bipolar fans you'll ever encounter on realgm.

Eh, we'd give you a run for your money on that one

[DBrimstone]

They're the most bipolar fans you'll ever encounter on realgm.

Eh, we'd give you a run for your money on that one

agreed

[DRK]

and lastly, who won?

I did, by not paying $400 for floor seats to this ... exhibition

Liked what i saw from Lawal and Janning, and Siler.

Gonna be fun watching the raps this year, too, after Davis gets back.

I like what I saw from Clark, Lawal, Siler, and Dowdell. Janning couldn't hit a 3 to save his life.

[JohnVancouver]

They're salesmen - they are likely under orders to play up the "New Beginning" Raptors and get some asses in the seats for the season. Jack Armstrong is very annoying, the colour guy



had to laugh, though - Matt the announcer described it as the 'dawning of a new error for the Toronto raptors' in the pre-game

Freudian slip -

You might be the only person ever to find Armstrong annoying. You sure you don't mean Rautins?

Jack Armstrong, from Brooklyn? Nope, he rubs me wrongways - I just find him irritating - and anyone who describes a guards as "facilitating positive outcomes for others" as he did when describing Calderon,... feh

[JohnVancouver]

and lastly, who won?

I did, by not paying $400 for floor seats to this ... exhibition

Liked what i saw from Lawal and Janning, and Siler.

Gonna be fun watching the raps this year, too, after Davis gets back.

I like what I saw from Clark, Lawal, Siler, and Dowdell. Janning couldn't hit a 3 to save his life.

actually, he can. You'll see - kid's a nice shooter and has a lot of talent in other areas.
Everyone sucked that night, though

[DRK]

and lastly, who won?

I did, by not paying $400 for floor seats to this ... exhibition

Liked what i saw from Lawal and Janning, and Siler.

Gonna be fun watching the raps this year, too, after Davis gets back.

I like what I saw from Clark, Lawal, Siler, and Dowdell. Janning couldn't hit a 3 to save his life.

actually, he can. You'll see - kid's a nice shooter and has a lot of talent in other areas.
Everyone sucked that night, though

I know he can. I've seen tha training camp videos.

I was talking about Janning's performance against the Raptors. I have confidence in him that he can play much much better than he did against Toronto.

[JohnVancouver]

Sorry DRK - misread your post

janning is my boy, so I was off the mark a little quick in defending him

[dubiousx]

Raptors fans celebrating a 51 point win like they just won a championship. At the end of the season Suns will be in the playoffs like always while Toronto will be watching our playoffs games on tv fantasizing about their 51 point preseason victory.

LOL take solace in the fact that you have Steve Nash running the show and NOT Dragic or else it would be massacre in the regular season which would result in NO playoffs for the Suns. Don't hate, appreciate its only pre season.

[LV-Suns]

Raptors fans celebrating a 51 point win like they just won a championship. At the end of the season Suns will be in the playoffs like always while Toronto will be watching our playoffs games on tv fantasizing about their 51 point preseason victory.

LOL take solace in the fact that you have Steve Nash running the show and NOT Dragic or else it would be massacre in the regular season which would result in NO playoffs for the Suns. Don't hate, appreciate its only pre season.

You caught me. I am hating on the Raptors pre-season team.

[nashrambler13]

Raptors fans celebrating a 51 point win like they just won a championship. At the end of the season Suns will be in the playoffs like always while Toronto will be watching our playoffs games on tv fantasizing about their 51 point preseason victory.

LOL take solace in the fact that you have Steve Nash running the show and NOT Dragic or else it would be massacre in the regular season which would result in NO playoffs for the Suns. Don't hate, appreciate its only pre season.

People wont be saying that soon enough!

[Never Fear 33 Is Here]

Also, starting Hedo at PF is ridiculous, he is ****. Not so much starting him at PF I mean, I mean starting him at ALL. He's ****.

Like, he will make you want to punch a baby in the face, literally.

I'm just doing this to help you, expect NOTHING from Hedo, and when he pops up with his 6 assist games or his decent three point shooting you'll actually be happy instead of saying to yourself, "that's it? Why can't he hit a layup or try on defence??"

I so hope you are not right, but this is seriously how I feel about him. As a Magic fan a few years ago, I couldn't stand him. He had one good year and everyone loved him, but he has not done jack since then.

[DRK]

Also, starting Hedo at PF is ridiculous, he is ****. Not so much starting him at PF I mean, I mean starting him at ALL. He's ****.

Like, he will make you want to punch a baby in the face, literally.

I'm just doing this to help you, expect NOTHING from Hedo, and when he pops up with his 6 assist games or his decent three point shooting you'll actually be happy instead of saying to yourself, "that's it? Why can't he hit a layup or try on defence??"

I so hope you are not right, but this is seriously how I feel about him. As a Magic fan a few years ago, I couldn't stand him. He had one good year and everyone loved him, but he has not done jack since then.

If Grant Hill gets traded to.. the Lakers, for example, are you going to be a Laker fan?

[Never Fear 33 Is Here]

Also, starting Hedo at PF is ridiculous, he is ****. Not so much starting him at PF I mean, I mean starting him at ALL. He's ****.

Like, he will make you want to punch a baby in the face, literally.

I'm just doing this to help you, expect NOTHING from Hedo, and when he pops up with his 6 assist games or his decent three point shooting you'll actually be happy instead of saying to yourself, "that's it? Why can't he hit a layup or try on defence??"

I so hope you are not right, but this is seriously how I feel about him. As a Magic fan a few years ago, I couldn't stand him. He had one good year and everyone loved him, but he has not done jack since then.

If Grant Hill gets traded to.. the Lakers, for example, are you going to be a Laker fan?

No. I have been over this many times but you may not have been around long enough to know.

[JohnVancouver]

Fortunately, it will never happen