Retro POY 1957-58 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#41 » by JordansBulls » Wed Oct 6, 2010 8:37 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:The Celtics won Game 4 of the Finals without Russell on the road at that.


And the Bulls, first season after Jordan's (first) retirement, won 55 games without Jordan and a CBAer in his place, then proceeded to win seven (not one) playoff games before being screwed out of an Eastern Conference Finals berth. Your point?

And are you ever going to start... breaking anything down? Bringing some insight to the table on some of the given candidates for a season?


The Celtics made it out of round 1 for 6 years in a row before Russell came. And as soon as he came he played with a league MVP in Cousy.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#42 » by bastillon » Wed Oct 6, 2010 9:53 pm

and yet Russell-less Celtics never came close to Bulls 94 season :lol: nice try though...
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#43 » by JordansBulls » Wed Oct 6, 2010 10:17 pm

bastillon wrote:and yet Russell-less Celtics never came close to Bulls 94 season :lol: nice try though...


Except the Celtics actually did win titles with Havlicek as the man as well. Who also played on the C's.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#44 » by penbeast0 » Wed Oct 6, 2010 10:21 pm

Boston was clearly the best team in the league this season and it looks like another Celtic walkaway – but it isn’t. This is the year Boston got upset (with HCA!) as Russell limps through the finals and Bob Pettit has an amazing game 7, scoring 50 and pretty much singlehandedly taking over the final quarter of the game.

Boston – Russell in his full year led the team in fg% (3rd in league) as well as rebounds (1st in league) and of course . . . defense. Cousy again was unimpressive though he did lead the league in assists (Maurice Stokes, a PF/C was 3rd and Tom Gola, a G/F was 4th) shooting .353 on 18/5/7 with 5fta then again falling off a little in the playoffs to .342 (plus lousy defense). Boston’s second best player was probably Bill Sharman (22/5/3 .424 5.4fta also slipping in playoffs to 21/5/2 on .407

St. Louis – Pettit (25/17/2 .410 11fta/g) and Hagan (20/10/3 .443 7ft/g) were the two stars though the center tandem of Chuck Share and Ed Macauley was solid. Slater Martin had the defensive rep but offensively, he and McMahon were putrid (.336 and .330 from the field with less than 5fta or assists). Hagan then EXPLODED in the playoffs for 28/11/3 on .502fg% and 9ft/g! That and the ring might have moved him past Pettit except for Pettit’s taking over the floor in game 7, something I’ve watched on tape since it has become legendary – he pretty much dominated the 4th quarter, doing all the scoring for his team, rebounding, everything – to lead his team with 50 points for the game 7 win.

The Nats and Warriors were also both solid teams, Nats were 4 games better in regular season but the Warriors took them out in playoff round one. The Warriors were led by wings Paul Arizin (21/7/2 .393 8ft/g) and Tom Gola (14/11/6 .415 5fta as a 6’7 guard) plus hook shot artist Neil Johnston making one of his last runs of his career despite being only 28 (20/11/2 .429 7.6ft/g and leading team in ft% at .819). However, against the Celtics, no rotation player even shot .400 with only Arizin approaching his regular season performance and Russell dominating Johnston to such an extent that according to one book I read, Johnston was never the same player again.

The Nats were led by do everything big Dolph Schayes who put up 25/14/3 on .398 but with 10ft/g shooting an amazing .904 from the line – career possibly the best ft shooting big ever though. Unlike the Warriors stars, he had a solid playoff performance in the loss – of course, he didn’t face Russell.

Other big statistical performances include NBA scoring leader George Yardley of Detroit in his career year (28/11/1 on .414 with 11ft/g) and Cinncinnati which previewed the Oscar Robertson era with several strong statistical performances that didn’t translate into team success including C Clyde Lovellette (23/12/2 .441), SF Jack Twyman (17/5/2 .452) and PF Maurice Stokes (17/18/6! .351).

I think Russell was clearly the best player in the league but Pettit’s game 7 is pretty amazing and it led to a ring so this is a tough call. If Pettit had been good the rest of the playoffs, I'd pick him #1 but he wasn't; Hagan carried him a lot so I think I give it to Russell despite the loss. Hagan is an easy #3 then Schayes and Yardley also seem to have separated themselves from the pack pretty clearly.

1. Bill Russell
2. Bob Pettit
3. Cliff Hagan
4. Dolph Schayes
5. George Yardley
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#45 » by bastillon » Wed Oct 6, 2010 10:27 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
bastillon wrote:and yet Russell-less Celtics never came close to Bulls 94 season :lol: nice try though...


Except the Celtics actually did win titles with Havlicek as the man as well. Who also played on the C's.


that's a different team and Havlicek wasn't the man. that would be Cowens.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#46 » by JordansBulls » Wed Oct 6, 2010 10:32 pm

bastillon wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
bastillon wrote:and yet Russell-less Celtics never came close to Bulls 94 season :lol: nice try though...


Except the Celtics actually did win titles with Havlicek as the man as well. Who also played on the C's.


that's a different team and Havlicek wasn't the man. that would be Cowens.


Havlicek won finals mvp and both finished at the same as well.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#47 » by bastillon » Wed Oct 6, 2010 10:39 pm

different team. it's like arguing for 2001 Lakers because ancient Grant was there. Russell's Celtics teammates weren't nearly as good as Cowens Celtics. not even close.

JoJo White won finals MVP in 76 it doesn't mean he was "the man" or whatever. it was Cowens who kept finishing in top4 MVP voting, not Hondo.

70s Celtics and Hondo don't have anything to do with Russell-less Celtics.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#48 » by JordansBulls » Wed Oct 6, 2010 10:44 pm

bastillon wrote:different team. it's like arguing for 2001 Lakers because ancient Grant was there. Russell's Celtics teammates weren't nearly as good as Cowens Celtics. not even close.

JoJo White won finals MVP in 76 it doesn't mean he was "the man" or whatever. it was Cowens who kept finishing in top4 MVP voting, not Hondo.

70s Celtics and Hondo don't have anything to do with Russell-less Celtics.


HONDO was on the Russell Celtics. And then won a ring as the man.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#49 » by bastillon » Wed Oct 6, 2010 11:30 pm

irrelevant because it was a different team. Hondo was the only player that had anything in common with both Celtics teams.

and Hondo wasn't the man. Cowens was.

btw. what does Hondo have to do with 58 RPOY ?
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#50 » by JordansBulls » Thu Oct 7, 2010 12:24 am

bastillon wrote:irrelevant because it was a different team. Hondo was the only player that had anything in common with both Celtics teams.

and Hondo wasn't the man. Cowens was.

btw. what does Hondo have to do with 58 RPOY ?


Ask the "ThaRegul8r" he brought up the 1994 Bulls when I mentioned this?

The Celtics won Game 4 of the Finals without Russell on the road at that.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#51 » by ElGee » Thu Oct 7, 2010 5:54 am

1958 Estimated Pace-Adjusted Statistics

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  New York      90.9
2.  St. Louis     88.7
3.  Syracuse      88.6
LEAGUE AVG.       87.5
4.  Philadelphia  86.9
5.  Detroit       86.7
6.  Minneapolis   86.6
6.  Boston        86.6
8.  Cincinnati    85.1


DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston        82.3
2.  Cincinnati    86.3
3.  Philadelphia  87.0
LEAGUE AVG.       87.5
4.  Syracuse      87.6
4.  St. Louis     87.6
6.  Detroit       88.7
7.  New York      89.8
8.  Minneapolis   91.8
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#52 » by ThaRegul8r » Thu Oct 7, 2010 8:34 am

Putting this here so far.

St. Louis, Jan. 21 (U.P.)—Bill Russell and Bob Pettit renew their duel between the National Basketball Association’s two best big men tonight, while coaches Red Auerbach and Alex Hannum resume a personal feud in the league’s annual East-West All-Star game.

Auerbach’s East team, with a superior overall scoring average of about 10 points in regular season competition, was a three-point favorite for the eighth annual pro basketball classic at St. Louis for the game. Although each team presents 10 of the outstanding stars in the pro league, much attention will be centered on the match-up between Russell, the Boston Celtics’ six-foot-10 defensive marvel, and Pettit, the St. Louis Hawks’ six-foot-nine shooting wizard who has a 25-point scoring average.

Russell, whom West Coast Hannum concedes “swings the defensive advantage to the East team,” may not be in peak form. An injured ankle forced him to miss three games in recent weeks. And in last Sunday’s game against Philadelphia, Russell was relieved twice because of a combination of ankle and elbow miseries.

Russell vs. Pettit

With Russell assigned to guard jump-shooting Pettit, the West strategy will be the same as most NBA teams try to employ in games against the Celtics. Pettit will concentrate on “outside” shots in an effort to lure Russell away from the boards and thus give six-foot-seven Maurice Stokes of the Cincinnati Royals a chance to dominate the rebounding.

These tactics fail to perturb the dour Auerbach. “Russell will guard Pettit no matter where he plays, inside or outside,” he said. Russell will have some help on the boards from Neil Johnston and Dolph Schayes.

“We have a much better team offensively,” Auerbach insisted. “We have better shooters in Johnston, Bill Sharman, Ken Sears and Schayes. Our back court is much better with Bob Cousy and Sharman. Defensively, we should be much better, too, depending on Russell’s ankle.”

Even Hannum conceded that, on paper, the East appeared to be a better team. (Reading Eagle, Jan. 21, 1958)


Bob Pettit was All-Star Game MVP.

ST. LOUIS—(AP)—“This one game me more satisfaction than any All-Star victory the East has ever won.”

Boston’s Red Auerbach was talking and the old pro of his Boston Celtics, Bob Cousy, smiled and nodded.

“This one,” Auerbach said, “was in St. Louis. We would rather win here than anywhere else.”

The favored East team, 10 points down early in the last half, battled back and won going away, 130-118, with Cousy dazzling.

They did it despite an all-out effort by Bob Pettit, the St. Louis Hawks star, who set new NBA All-Star records with 28 points and 26 rebounds. And they did it despite a partisan St. Louis Arena crowd of 12,854, which gave Auerbach and his Celtics a strong booing.

Most Valuable

Pettit’s performance earned him the most valuable player award for the second time. Cousy, himself a two-time winner of the honors had 20 points and 10 assists and was second in the voting.

Auerbach said he couldn’t pick a turning point.

“We were just hitting and they weren’t,” he said.

West Coach Alex Hannum was downcast but praised the efforts of his West All-Stars.

“I felt mighty sick when I saw Bobby (Pettit) on the floor after Slater Martin had gone out,” Alex said.

Pettit Sprains Knee

Pettit suffered a slight knee sprain. Martin had what physicians termed a torn muscle fibre. It may keep him out for a while.

Hannum said a two minute cold spell late in the game was the difference. Cousy tossed in seven straight points while the West was getting a lone field goal in this stretch and a one-point East lead grew to six.

A bitter St. Louis-Boston rivalry made this All-Star Game sweeter for the victors and harder to take for the losers.

“We had the best team and I guess this proves it,” said Auerbach.
(Sarasota Journal, Jan. 22, 1958)


Mar. 2, 1958, Pettit scored 21 points and grabbed a team-record 35 rebounds in a 103-93 win over Cincinnati.

Western Division Finals – St. Louis Hawks (41-31) vs. Detroit Pistons (33-39)

St. Louis won Game 1 114-111, led by Cliff Hagan, who had 38 points. “The Hawks were forced to overcome a six-point deficit in the final quarter. And they did it with a big boost from Cliff Hagan, who tallied 11 of his 38 points in the final 12 minutes” (The Southeast Missourian, Mar. 20, 1958).

St. Louis won Game 2 99-96 on “two driving layups by veteran Slater Martin in the closing 90 seconds” (Reading Eagle, Mar. 23, 1958).

Detroit, March 22—(AP)—Two driving layups by Veteran Slater Martin in the closing 90 seconds gave St. Louis a 99-96 victory over Detroit Saturday, the Hawks’ second straight triumph in the best-of-seven series for the Western title in the National Basketball Assn.

Win Wilfong stole the ball from Walter Dukes and hurled a perfect pass the length of the floor which Martin converted. This gave the Hawks a 97-96 edge and Martin salted it moments later with another driving basket.

Until the final flurry it looked as if the Pistons might even the series in this rough and tumble contest. Behind 61-50 at halftime, they roared back into a 67-66 lead after slightly more than seven minutes of the third period.

With three and a half minutes left in the game Detroit led by three points. But Cliff Hagan, the game’s high scorer with 27 points, sank a field goal and Bob Pettit added two free throws while the Pistons were collecting only two free throws. Martin’s last basket ended it. (The Milwaukee Sentinel, Mar. 22, 1958)


Cliff Hagan led St. Louis with a game-high 27 points, Bob Pettit had 15, Ed Macauley and Slater Martin had 14 apiece, and Wil Wilfong had 10. George Yardley led Detroit with 26 points, Walter Dukes had 17, Gene Shue had 16, Harry Gallatin 14 and Dick McGuire 13 (Reading Eagle, Mar. 23, 1958).

Detroit won Game 3 109-89. “The Pistons jumped off to a 35-21 first quarter lead against the Hawks in St. Louis Sunday and never trailed. The usually high-scoring Hawks tallied only 15 points in the third period. George Yardley, the league’s top scorer, dropped in 17 of his 31 points in the Pistons’ final quarter.

“Veteran Cliff Hagan, the Hawks’ scoring star in the first two games came up with 29 points but didn’t receive much help from Bob Pettit, who scored only a sub-par 18 against the fine guarding of Walt Dukes” (Park City Daily News, Mar. 24, 1958).

St. Louis won Game 4 145-101, led by Cliff Hagan, who had 28 points, and Bob Pettit had 23. “The Hawks turned in a blazing first half. They raced to a 72-44 advantage and coasted the rest of the way. The Hawks’ total points broke a two-year-old team scoring record for a playoff game set by Minneapolis. St. Louis also set another mark by pumping 55 field goals through the hoop” (The Southeast Missourian, Mar. 24, 1958).

St. Louis won Game 5 120-96 to win the series 4 games to 1. Cliff Hagan led the way with 32 points, 26 in the second half (The Lewiston Daily Sun, Mar. 27, 1958) “to lead the Hawks from a 49-42 halftime lead to a blistering 36 point third period that sewed it up” (Times Daily, Mar. 24, 1958). “This gave Hagan a total of 154 points for the five games,” an average of 30.8 per game. Bob Pettit had 20, “weakened [...] with a bout of the flu” (The Lewiston Daily Sun, Mar. 27, 1958). Charlie Shore received a fractured lower jaw bone and damage to four teeth in a collision with Wally Dukes (The Milwaukee Sentinel, Mar. 28, 1958). George Yardley had 18 for Detroit.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#53 » by semi-sentient » Thu Oct 7, 2010 2:58 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:Comment: There's no need for a "counter," just actually... you know, looking at the games to see what happened. It's called "context." Boston knew that with Russell injured, they would not be able to run their fast break, as Cousy acknowledged. So they did a 180 and slowed it down. It threw off the Hawks in Game 4, and they won.


And yet all those articles keep pointing out how "crippled" the Celtics were. Despite that, they were able to completely change the pace of the game and beat the Hawks without their main man in the middle.

ThaRegul8r wrote:It didn't work in Game 5.


True, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they played solid defense, which was the whole point of my rant.

ThaRegul8r wrote:We all now know that Boston wasn't a good offensive team—you point out the Hawks' shooting percentages but don't mention Boston shot 32.7% and 30.1% themselves, which was worse than even the Hawks shot. As we saw when we covered the later years, the Celtics' shooting percentages didn't matter when they had Russell intimidating teams into shooting even worse."


Boston shot 32% in game 1 (2nd worst shooting performance after game 5), so it's not like they didn't have their struggles even when Russell was there. In fact, they had one game where they didn't shoot a horrible percentage (as in, above 40%), and that was in game 2. In game 3, they had their highest scoring quarter in the 4th -- which of course was after Russell's injury.

So anyway, those are good articles, but not enough to convince me that Pettit shouldn't be the #1 guy this year.

I'm still waiting on more input on Schayes before I finalize my votes.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#54 » by ThaRegul8r » Thu Oct 7, 2010 6:30 pm

semi-sentient wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:Comment: There's no need for a "counter," just actually... you know, looking at the games to see what happened. It's called "context." Boston knew that with Russell injured, they would not be able to run their fast break, as Cousy acknowledged. So they did a 180 and slowed it down. It threw off the Hawks in Game 4, and they won.


And yet all those articles keep pointing out how "crippled" the Celtics were. Despite that, they were able to completely change the pace of the game and beat the Hawks without their main man in the middle.


They did. A combination of slowing the pace and playing Cousy at center, as the Lakers did in 1980. Auerbach tried an assortment of tactics to try to throw off St. Louis in an attempt to compensate for Russell's loss. But that was the only game they won. Alex Hannum said they'd be a different team afterwards, and the Hawks never lost again.

semi-sentient wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:We all now know that Boston wasn't a good offensive team—you point out the Hawks' shooting percentages but don't mention Boston shot 32.7% and 30.1% themselves, which was worse than even the Hawks shot. As we saw when we covered the later years, the Celtics' shooting percentages didn't matter when they had Russell intimidating teams into shooting even worse."


Boston shot 32% in game 1 (2nd worst shooting performance after game 5), so it's not like they didn't have their struggles even when Russell was there.


True. Game accounts specifically says they didn't play like champions except for in spurts in the first game.

semi-sentient wrote:In fact, they had one game where they didn't shoot a horrible percentage (as in, above 40%), and that was in game 2.


And why was this? Because they had a +30 advantage on the boards, and Russell starting the break, getting them easy baskets. You'll note how Cousy said it would be virtually eliminated without Russell.

semi-sentient wrote:In game 3, they had their highest scoring quarter in the 4th -- which of course was after Russell's injury.


Yes. Game accounts say that tried to make a comeback. But I also point out that the Hawks took control of the game in the third quarter after Russell's injury. Game accounts specifically mention, “As Boston’s leading rebounder and defensive ace, Russell is a key figure in the play-offs. His absence for a good portion of the second half in Wednesday night’s game allowed the Hawks’ Bob Pettit to roll up 32 points” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 4, 1958). Pettit exploded for 18 in that quarter after Russell went down. You'll also note that Cliff Hagan had his lowest-scoring game of the series when it's specifically mentioned that Russell spent time on him.

semi-sentient wrote:So anyway, those are good articles, but not enough to convince me that Pettit shouldn't be the #1 guy this year.


My intent isn't to convince anyone of anything, just to put the information out there so that people are able to make an informed vote. If you still think Pettit is #1, that's fine. At least you've now read more than simply a series of box scores with no context explaining them.

semi-sentient wrote:I'm still waiting on more input on Schayes before I finalize my votes.


I'll try to have that tonight.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#55 » by semi-sentient » Thu Oct 7, 2010 8:51 pm

Thanks, I definitely appreciate all the work you're putting into this project. That must be extremely time consuming.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#56 » by lorak » Thu Oct 7, 2010 9:15 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
Boston won Game 4 109-98. “The Boston Celtics, crippled by the loss of big Bill Russell, choked off the St. Louis Hawks tonight with clever slow-down tactics” (Reading Eagle, Apr. 6, 1958). bBob Cousy led Boston with 24 points, “16 of them in the second quarter when he played most of the time in the pivot. Cousy’s pivot play was just one of the surprises which Boston Coach Red Auerbach cooked up to compensate for the loss of the 6-10 Russell” (Reading Eagle, Apr. 6, 1958).


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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#57 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Oct 8, 2010 2:32 am

1. Pettit
2. Russ

As I mentioned if healthy Russ gets this spot, but I put heavy stock into playoff injuries, so with that taken into account a healthy Pettit is more valuable than Russ missing a lot of the Finals

3. Schayes
4. Yardley

Statistical studs, Schayes led a better team and offense

5. Hagan - Amazing playoffs but doesn't look as a player prolific as the top 2, overall
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#58 » by shawngoat23 » Fri Oct 8, 2010 6:33 am

1. Bob Pettit
2. Bill Russell

This was easy for me. If Russell were healthy and played up to his normal levels, I'd have him #1. But that being said, the most important question I ask is "how close do you get your team to a championship?" Russell did a lot to get the Celtics in position to win one, but he falls short in comparison to Pettit. It's a tough break, but he has to get docked (relative to Pettit) for not being available when his team needed him. Furthermore, throughout the course of these seasons, I have subscribed to the theory that "sometimes, one game is the whole season", putting extra weight on pivotal postseason games. I have to reward Bob Pettit for delivering a truly amazing playoff performance that will stand the test of time with his Game 6 effort.

I am intrigued to hear that the Celtics didn't play all that much worse with Russell's injury. I don't dock Russell for it, because I understand that sometimes an injury to a star player will make temporarily compel his teammates to step up in his absence, and sometimes that makes it harder for opponents to gameplan. But that being said, if the Celtics were still functioning competitively without Russell, then he hasn't separated himself from Pettit enough through the regular season and the playoffs (up until his injury) to maintain the #1 spot after Pettit came up so big in games I deem so important.

3. Cliff Hagan
4. Dolph Schayes
5. George Yardley

None of these names should be surprising, but Cliff Hagan gets a considerable bump from his regular season placement because he stepped it up in a huge way in the playoffs.
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#59 » by ronnymac2 » Fri Oct 8, 2010 7:10 am

Final Rankings:

Bob Pettit
Bill Russell
Dolph Schayes
Cliff Hagan
George Yardley
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Re: Retro POY 1957-58 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#60 » by ThaRegul8r » Fri Oct 8, 2010 7:16 am

Going to try to get something on Schayes here.

Jan 4, 1958, Schayes scored 34 points to lead Syracuse to a 115-106 upset win over the Boston Celtics. Schayes scored 16 in the second quarter, where Syracuse took a 50-40 lead (Hartford Courant, Jan. 5, 1958).

Dolph Schayes of the Syracuse Nationals ranks today as the foremost scorer in professional basketball annals.

The 29-year-old former New York University luminary eclipsed retired George Mikan’s all-time pro career scoring record by collecting 23 points as Syracuse drubbed the Detroit Pistons 135-109 yesterday.

The 6-8, 220-pound Schayes now has scored 11,770 points in 10 years of pro play, including the 1948-49 season when Syracuse was in the National Basketball League. Mikan tallied 11,764 points in nine pro campaigns. (The Tuscaloosa News, Jan. 13, 1958)
I remember your posts from the RPOY project, you consistently brought it. Please continue to do so, sir. This board needs guys like you to counteract ... worthless posters


Retirement isn’t the end of the road, but just a turn in the road. – Unknown

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