Roy Halladay Discussion/Appreciation Thread

[Randle McMurphy]

Has there ever been a HOF who missed the playoffs for 10+ years with one team, then went on another team to finish his career, and got in the Hall wearing the hat of the team he spent the "10+" years with? That has to be a rarity, if it has happened at all.

Off the top of my head, Paul Molitor with the Brewers come pretty close to that criteria.

Honestly, who outside of Toronto will ever put "Roy Halladay" and "Toronto" in the same sentence after Roy does his thing for Philadelphia? If Halladay gets a couple of Cy's/rings during the rest of his career, I'd say it is a certainty he goes in as a Phillie. His career in Toronto (again to anyone outside of Canada) was mostly ignored.

A certainty? The HOF committee can't just erase 10 years of time and statistics (whether they were ignored initially or not) on the basis of a few years in Philadelphia even if he does win consecutive Cy's.

This is really a discussion for years down the road, though, when we'll have a better idea of what we're dealing with.

[Hoopstarr]

Joe (DC) - How do you think Roy Halladay will age? How much longer before we view him as a lock for the Hall?
Klaw (1:13 PM)

My wife asked me pretty much the same question about the Hall - what more would he have to do. I think if he gets over 200 wins, he'll have eliminated one major potential criticism of his case. He has one CYA, presumably two after this year, a few All-Star appearances ... he's got a pretty good peak argument already and just needs bulk.


Mike (Westchester) - In answer to Joe from DC's question, I think Halladay would make it in now, similar to Koufax. High peak will be enough, even if he doesn't have bulk. Yet no matter. Two more seasons he'll be over 200 wins, and then he's a sure lock. My guess, anyway.

Klaw (1:20 PM) - I can't argue with that. I think 200 wins will become a new litmus test ... but it still won't be enough for Blyleven.

--

KLaw thinks the win standard will come down to 200, so at least we agree on something.

[OldNo7]

NLDS NLCS and WS MVP would sure help his case

[tsherkin]

Pitchers don't play as much as they used to, so 300 wins isn't really a fair margin to use. The next player to hit 300 wins will be a shocker of some sort, because only Pettite and Moyer are anywhere near it at the moment. Wakefield has a shot at 200, Halladay is still like 30 away from 200, let alone 300. The only young guy that looks like he has a shot is Sabathia (29), and the only guy under 29 even worth mentioning at the moment on that list is Verlander (27) with 83 wins. There are a couple of guys who might, in principle, do it, but we'll see.

Roy's amazing, though, and there really hasn't been a pitcher quite like him in a fairly long time.

His HoF argument should go like this:

He's a Cy Young winner with a perfect game, great stats, is only the second guy to toss a no-no in the postseason (in his debut, no less) and has been consistently great for a long time.

Why SHOULDN'T he be in the Hall?

And then, if he does win the Cy (and/or any postseason award/championship), that just makes it that much harder to say "No."

[Harry Palmer]

Has there ever been a HOF who missed the playoffs for 10+ years with one team, then went on another team to finish his career, and got in the Hall wearing the hat of the team he spent the "10+" years with? That has to be a rarity, if it has happened at all.

Off the top of my head, Paul Molitor with the Brewers come pretty close to that criteria.

Wasn't Molitor on that Harvey's Wallbangers team in the early 80's? I'm almost sure he was.

[Schad]

Roy has basically locked it up now, but there was some worry prior to the season owing to his win total, simply because he might've been one of the first of the modern starters (beyond Pedro, whose injury woes post-2005 give him a pass on the counting stats) to hit induction age with what would've been considered sub-par win totals beforehand.

Curt Schilling is going to be the first test, and I'm still not convinced that he makes it without a few years of struggle at the least. If Roy held up long enough to reach 210 but didn't win a second Cy, or garner any other major peripheral accolades, he might've been in the same boat, and if his years as a workhorse prevented him from pitching well through 37-38, there's a chance he doesn't make it at all.

Now, though, I don't think there's much debate; two Cys and five top-5s, the CG/SHOs, the perfect game and second playoff no-hitter all-time will get him in eventually, and it's now just a matter of accumulating enough stats to get him in on the first or second ballot (Nolan Ryan is the only pitcher who has made it on the first since 1994).

[Randle McMurphy]

Has there ever been a HOF who missed the playoffs for 10+ years with one team, then went on another team to finish his career, and got in the Hall wearing the hat of the team he spent the "10+" years with? That has to be a rarity, if it has happened at all.

Off the top of my head, Paul Molitor with the Brewers come pretty close to that criteria.

Wasn't Molitor on that Harvey's Wallbangers team in the early 80's? I'm almost sure he was.

That's why I said pretty close. For the most part over his time there, they were mediocre to bad.

[Michael Bradley]

Yeah Molitor made the playoffs very early in his career (81 and 82) before enduring 10 straight post season-less years. Close, but Halladay had a decade of not making the playoffs at all before going elsewhere and possibly creating a new legacy for himself with individual and team accomplishments.

I don't think we will ever be able to find a HOF like that; spending 10+ seasons with one team without making the post-season, then going to another team, continuing his great career but this time with more success (i.e. playoffs/championships) and going to the Hall with the cap of the team he spent the first 10+ years with. I hope there is an example of that because it would suck to see Doc with a Philly's cap in the Hall, but after one post-season I think he is already more distinguishable to the general public as a Phillie than he ever was as a Blue Jay, which is sad.

[Hoopstarr]

Andre Dawson went in as an Expo and they went to the playoffs once. He went to the playoffs only one other time as a Cub. And he shouldn't even be in the playoffs to begin with. Ryne Sandberg went to the playoffs only twice too. I don't think voters are going to hold it against Doc for not single-handedly taking his team to the playoffs in the AL East.

[Michael Bradley]

Again, Halladay never even sniffed the post-season with Toronto for over a decade. That is different than making it once/twice or being in pennant races. He was never close. His entire prime was ignored by the American public.

Now he is in Philadelphia with a playoff no-hitter under his belt, an impending Cy Young award, and who knows what else. If he pitches five more years at an elite level, even factoring age related decline, he'll likely finish his career with 200+ wins and a career defining playoff start (among anything else he potentially does) while being remembered more for his time with the Phillies than his time with Toronto.

Maybe after his career is over Halladay would want to go in as a Jay, but if his career in Philly ends up the way I think it will, I don't think that is what will happen. Like I said, Alomar's numbers in Cleveland kill what he did in Toronto, and he'll still go into the Hall with a Jays cap. World Series rings mean a lot to the Hall.

[Hoopstarr]

Again, Halladay never even sniffed the post-season with Toronto for over a decade. That is different than making it once/twice or being in pennant races. He was never close. His entire prime was ignored by the American public.

Now he is in Philadelphia with a playoff no-hitter under his belt, an impending Cy Young award, and who knows what else. If he pitches five more years at an elite level, even factoring age related decline, he'll likely finish his career with 200+ wins and a career defining playoff start (among anything else he potentially does) while being remembered more for his time with the Phillies than his time with Toronto.

Maybe after his career is over Halladay would want to go in as a Jay, but if his career in Philly ends up the way I think it will, I don't think that is what will happen. Like I said, Alomar's numbers in Cleveland kill what he did in Toronto, and he'll still go into the Hall with a Jays cap. World Series rings mean a lot to the Hall.

I don't know about that. His Toronto story will be known by the time he's done. Him overcoming his fear of failure and Mel Queen rebuilding him happened in Toronto. 150-ish wins, most likely his best two or three seasons, his first Cy Young and a bunch of ASG will all be in Toronto.

Dave Winfield went in as a Padre, not a Yankee, despite the Padres being awful and him having more and better years in NY. Don't you think Randy Johnson goes in as a Mariner no matter how much better he was in Arizona? Or Mussina as an Oriole (if he gets in), A-Rod as a Mariner, Schilling as a Phillie, etc? 12 years is a long time to spend with a team and not make the HOF with that cap. HOF caps are kinda like your city of birth. Famous people always get listed by their city of birth no matter where they got famous or spent most of their time.

Also, I have the feeling Doc will come back to Toronto at the end of his career when we're contenders. He's the type of guy that would do that.

[evilRyu]

excited about tonite's matchup with Halladay pitching..

btw, kind of cool how if you do an image search of Roy Halladay, all you see is him in a Jays jersey haha. You don't see him in a Philly uniform until page 5

[OldNo7]

Not the strongest game, but both of Ross' HRs were off of inside pitches.