Retro POY 1956-57 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#21 » by bastillon » Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:05 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
drza wrote:I'll be the one to ask...why did Russell play so few games this year? Was it injury?


“He missed the first 24 games of the season because of the Olympics” (Dallas Morning News).


He was leading the US Men's Olympic basketball team to a Gold medal by the largest margin of victory in Olympic history, 53.5 points per game.


and they too won with their defense. I've posted in another thread results from 56 olympics in comparison to 60 team (West, Oscar, Lucas, Bellamy) and the latter performed significantly worse. Russell had only one fellow NBA teammate, KC Jones. how impressive is that ?

56 Oly Team was just DOMINANT on defense. if someone finds that topic it'd be great. I know there was a discussion about Russell's value being high only on the Celtics. Regul8r also participated IIRC. perhaps you could find it ?
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#22 » by bastillon » Sat Oct 9, 2010 12:14 pm

Optimism Prime wrote:I do feel bad for Elgin this year. Even I couldn't put him higher than 3rd.


Warspite wrote: Baylor missed because of Military Service. He shouldnt be discounted for service to freedom and in fact should be applauded.


Shawngoat wrote:Elgin Baylor was magnificent this year, and I didn't really dock him too hard for missing so many games because this was really a special case; in fact, it made his performance all the more impressive given what he had to overcome.


Doctor MJ wrote:Neither here nor there with what I'm talking about. Honestly if someone believes he was having huge impact when he played, and on principle refuses to ding him because of the military, I'm not going to tell them they're wrong (it's a very special case).


so Elgin Baylor got a pass from many because of Military Service. well Bill Russell led his team to a freaking gold medal on the olympics.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#23 » by lorak » Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:05 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Cousy will probably be my #1 this year. League MVP and title the same year.


Actual analysis would tell you that Cousy was absolutely horrible in Game 7 of the Finals.


That's only one game (besides he still contributed as playmaker) and he was better in rest of the finals.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#24 » by penbeast0 » Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:05 pm

Interesting year. All the teams with winning records were in the Eastern division, led easily by Boston with the best record (6 games in front), the best SRS (over 3X that of the next best). It was Boston’s first time leading their division and first title despite having 3 HOFs for the previous few years (Cousy, Sharman, Macauley) as they added Heinsohn and Russell to replace Macauley. St. Louis also gets some credit for making it to the finals with a sweep over the Lakers.

BOSTON – Bob Cousy won the MVP with his Iverson like flashy game. However, of the Celtics 4 stars, he was the least efficient (21/5/7.5 .378 with 6.9fta) though that was around the league average (.380) and his assist totals were spectacular for the day; he also had his normal inefficient playoffs (.324) and was third on the team in playoff scoring despite the 50 point game against the Nats.
Sharman led the team in scoring and efficiency in the regular season (21/4/3.5 on .416 with 6.3fta @ .905ft%, but .381 with less fta in the playoffs. Heinsohn won ROY on (16/10/1.6 .397) with 4.8fta but then had a terrific playoff run (23/12/2 on .390).
Finally, Russell only played half the season as the first half he led the Olympic team to a gold medal with victory margins that exceeded the Dream Team’s dominance then came in a changed the league defensively plus putting up (15/20/1.8 on .427 with 6.4fta) and was even more dominant on the boards in the playoffs setting records with (15/24/3.2 on .365).

I’m less impressed with Cousy than the voters, Sharman was the best of the 3 Celtic scorers defensively and most efficient though Cousy dominated the ball and had the obvious talent (Sharman was purely a jump shooter). Add to that that Cousy and Sharman had never won the division or made it to the NBA finals in 4 seasons of Cousy/Sharman/Macauley (basically the Arenas/Butler/Jamison Wizards) and I think that including the postseason, Russell is the most valuable Celtic.

St. Louis had an unimpressive regular season but swept the rest of the West in the playoffs then took the Celtics to 7 games in the finals. Bob Pettit is probably my favorite pre-70s player other than maybe Gus Johnson and was the clear star of the team (25/15/2 .415 with 9.6fta in only 35 mpg – again, in a league shooting .380). And, unlike 1958 where I came in planning to vote for him but he slipped in the playoffs, this playoff he was even better (30/17/2.5 on .414)! (Quick note: Cliff Hagan in his rookie season only played about 15mpg during the season but showed what was to come in the playoffs finishing second on the team in scoring with 17/11/3 on .434).

Syracuse had the second best record in the league behind star Dolph Schayes (22.5/14/3 on .379 with 9.6fta @ .904ft%).

Philadelphia had the second best SRS (1.55 to Boston’s 4.79) behind stars Neil Johnston (23/12/3 on .447 with 9.4fta) and Paul Arizin (26/8/2 on .422 with 10fta).

Other players on the leaderboards included George Yardley of the Pistons (21.5/10.5/2 on .410 with 8.9fta), Maurice Stokes of the Royals in his second out of only 3 seasons before disease tragically cut him down (16/17/4.6 for 3rd in the league as a big man! on .347 with 5.3fta), and Clyde Lovellette of the Lakers (21/13.5/2 on .426 with 5.8fta).

My MVP votes:

1. Bob Pettit – full season plus big playoffs
2. Bill Russell – with a full season probably would vote for him
3. Dolph Schayes – 2nd best record eaten alive by Russell in the playoffs (.305 fg%)
4. Neil Johnston – Arizin disappeared in the playoffs altogether
5. Bill Sharman – More scoring, more efficiently than Cousy
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#25 » by lorak » Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:10 pm

bastillon wrote:Cousy always sucked in the playoffs.


Not true, for example in 1956 POY thread you will see why.
Besides it's horrible manipulation to says that someone always sucked in the playoffs, while in fact he 8 times led in APG in playoffs and 3 times in PPG. He even once led in TS%!
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#26 » by bastillon » Sat Oct 9, 2010 1:27 pm

DavidStern wrote:
bastillon wrote:Cousy always sucked in the playoffs.


Not true, for example in 1956 POY thread you will see why.
Besides it's horrible manipulation to says that someone always sucked in the playoffs, while in fact he 8 times led in APG in playoffs and 3 times in PPG. He even once led in TS%!


yeah, whole 3 games...

during Boston Championship runs, Cousy TS%:

57 - .409
58 - .432
59 - .408
60 - .350
61 - .450
62 - .408
63 - .407

FG%:

57 - .324
58 - .342
59 - .326
60 - .305
61 - .340
62 - .357
63 - .353

that's really historically bad. if you're fine with your star player shooting below 35% from the field, that's ok, I'm not gonna convince you. but when this so called star player is a poor defender and is hurting his team by shooting bricks on offense, yeah I kinda have a big problem with this guy.

one of the most entertaining players in the league at the time ? alright. one of the least efficient ? hell yeah. I'm more concerned about the latter part rather than the first.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#27 » by penbeast0 » Sat Oct 9, 2010 3:43 pm

Allen Iverson as old school passing mentality . . .
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#28 » by ThaRegul8r » Sat Oct 9, 2010 5:11 pm

penbeast0 wrote:BOSTON – Bob Cousy won the MVP with his Iverson like flashy game. However, of the Celtics 4 stars, he was the least efficient (21/5/7.5 .378 with 6.9fta) though that was around the league average (.380) and his assist totals were spectacular for the day; he also had his normal inefficient playoffs (.324) and was third on the team in playoff scoring despite the 50 point game against the Nats.


:confused:

Cousy scored 50 in 1953, not 1957. I already posted Boston's series against Syracuse this year.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#29 » by ThaRegul8r » Sat Oct 9, 2010 5:36 pm

bastillon wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:
drza wrote:I'll be the one to ask...why did Russell play so few games this year? Was it injury?


“He missed the first 24 games of the season because of the Olympics” (Dallas Morning News).


He was leading the US Men's Olympic basketball team to a Gold medal by the largest margin of victory in Olympic history, 53.5 points per game.


and they too won with their defense. I've posted in another thread results from 56 olympics in comparison to 60 team (West, Oscar, Lucas, Bellamy) and the latter performed significantly worse. Russell had only one fellow NBA teammate, KC Jones. how impressive is that ?

56 Oly Team was just DOMINANT on defense. if someone finds that topic it'd be great. I know there was a discussion about Russell's value being high only on the Celtics. Regul8r also participated IIRC. perhaps you could find it ?


Yeah, I saved the post for my Russell database.

Page 67 of the "Retro Player of the Year" thread, next-to-last point of the page:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1004743&start=990

bastillon wrote:check out Russell's defensive dominance outside of the NBA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball ... r_Olympics

average team scored about 70 pts/game. USA avg opp ppg - 45.6.

Phillipines scored 94 and 77 in first 2 games but 53 against USA;
Japan 61 and 70... 40 against USA;
Thailand 55 and 50... 29 against USA;
Soviet Union 82 vs the rest... 110 vs USA... in two games :D (55 average)

and if you think it's because of the competition, compare those results to 60 olympics in Rome. USA sent a team with Oscar, West, Bellamy and Lucas and still weren't as dominant defensively as 56 team. matter of fact, they never APPROACHED that level - their opponents scored 59.5 PPG (again, compared to 45.6 vs Russell's team).

there were 2 future NBA players on 56 team - Russ and KC.

similar story happened in NCAA. Russell simply fit wherever he went. the argument against Russell that he was only succesful because Celtics were perfect team for his capabilities is one of the most ridiculous of all that's been said in this project. Russell would take any team to contention with his defense. his style of play fits everywhere.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#30 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Oct 9, 2010 7:34 pm

bastillon wrote:
Optimism Prime wrote:I do feel bad for Elgin this year. Even I couldn't put him higher than 3rd.


Warspite wrote: Baylor missed because of Military Service. He shouldnt be discounted for service to freedom and in fact should be applauded.


Shawngoat wrote:Elgin Baylor was magnificent this year, and I didn't really dock him too hard for missing so many games because this was really a special case; in fact, it made his performance all the more impressive given what he had to overcome.


Doctor MJ wrote:Neither here nor there with what I'm talking about. Honestly if someone believes he was having huge impact when he played, and on principle refuses to ding him because of the military, I'm not going to tell them they're wrong (it's a very special case).


so Elgin Baylor got a pass from many because of Military Service. well Bill Russell led his team to a freaking gold medal on the olympics.


Well, you're really killing the context here. Despite my quote there, I did ding Baylor for his missed time.

I'll also say that your implication that getting a Gold medal is as good of a reason to miss time as military service is hardly clear cut.

With that said, the big thing for me will probably be that Boston looked pretty dang good without Russell. Unless I change my mind there, it'll be hard to put him over Pettit.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#31 » by JordansBulls » Sat Oct 9, 2010 7:47 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Interesting year. All the teams with winning records were in the Eastern division, led easily by Boston with the best record (6 games in front), the best SRS (over 3X that of the next best). It was Boston’s first time leading their division and first title despite having 3 HOFs for the previous few years (Cousy, Sharman, Macauley) as they added Heinsohn and Russell to replace Macauley. St. Louis also gets some credit for making it to the finals with a sweep over the Lakers.

BOSTON – Bob Cousy won the MVP with his Iverson like flashy game. However, of the Celtics 4 stars, he was the least efficient (21/5/7.5 .378 with 6.9fta) though that was around the league average (.380) and his assist totals were spectacular for the day; he also had his normal inefficient playoffs (.324) and was third on the team in playoff scoring despite the 50 point game against the Nats.
Sharman led the team in scoring and efficiency in the regular season (21/4/3.5 on .416 with 6.3fta @ .905ft%, but .381 with less fta in the playoffs. Heinsohn won ROY on (16/10/1.6 .397) with 4.8fta but then had a terrific playoff run (23/12/2 on .390).
Finally, Russell only played half the season as the first half he led the Olympic team to a gold medal with victory margins that exceeded the Dream Team’s dominance then came in a changed the league defensively plus putting up (15/20/1.8 on .427 with 6.4fta) and was even more dominant on the boards in the playoffs setting records with (15/24/3.2 on .365).

I’m less impressed with Cousy than the voters, Sharman was the best of the 3 Celtic scorers defensively and most efficient though Cousy dominated the ball and had the obvious talent (Sharman was purely a jump shooter). Add to that that Cousy and Sharman had never won the division or made it to the NBA finals in 4 seasons of Cousy/Sharman/Macauley (basically the Arenas/Butler/Jamison Wizards) and I think that including the postseason, Russell is the most valuable Celtic.

St. Louis had an unimpressive regular season but swept the rest of the West in the playoffs then took the Celtics to 7 games in the finals. Bob Pettit is probably my favorite pre-70s player other than maybe Gus Johnson and was the clear star of the team (25/15/2 .415 with 9.6fta in only 35 mpg – again, in a league shooting .380). And, unlike 1958 where I came in planning to vote for him but he slipped in the playoffs, this playoff he was even better (30/17/2.5 on .414)! (Quick note: Cliff Hagan in his rookie season only played about 15mpg during the season but showed what was to come in the playoffs finishing second on the team in scoring with 17/11/3 on .434).

Syracuse had the second best record in the league behind star Dolph Schayes (22.5/14/3 on .379 with 9.6fta @ .904ft%).

Philadelphia had the second best SRS (1.55 to Boston’s 4.79) behind stars Neil Johnston (23/12/3 on .447 with 9.4fta) and Paul Arizin (26/8/2 on .422 with 10fta).

Other players on the leaderboards included George Yardley of the Pistons (21.5/10.5/2 on .410 with 8.9fta), Maurice Stokes of the Royals in his second out of only 3 seasons before disease tragically cut him down (16/17/4.6 for 3rd in the league as a big man! on .347 with 5.3fta), and Clyde Lovellette of the Lakers (21/13.5/2 on .426 with 5.8fta).

My MVP votes:

1. Bob Pettit – full season plus big playoffs
2. Bill Russell – with a full season probably would vote for him
3. Dolph Schayes – 2nd best record eaten alive by Russell in the playoffs (.305 fg%)
4. Neil Johnston – Arizin disappeared in the playoffs altogether
5. Bill Sharman – More scoring, more efficiently than Cousy


How does Cousy not make the list when he won MVP and the title the same year and also made 1st team all nba when Russell didn't even make an all nba team but yet he is 2nd on the list?

Once again this is a year where the Celtics had 2 first team players in Sharman and Cousy and yet only one makes a list as the #5 guy but the guy who missed 1/3 of the season and didn't make an all nba team is 2nd. :o
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#32 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Oct 9, 2010 7:52 pm

JordansBulls wrote:How does Cousy not make the list when he won MVP and the title the same year and also made 1st team all nba when Russell didn't even make an all nba team but yet he is 2nd on the list?


It's this type of question that seems odd to me JB. We've been over the fact that you take the MVP seriously no matter what the result, while other basically ignore it if they think it's wrong. Your viewpoint is legit, but is it really a mystery to you why penbeast's opinion is what it is? He doesn't think Cousy should have won the MVP. He undoubtedly thinks Cousy won it because Boston had the best record in the league and Cousy was the established star on the team, when in reality in retrospect Russell will be the guy considered to have much more impact.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#33 » by penbeast0 » Sat Oct 9, 2010 11:16 pm

Sorry Regs . . . completely mixed up that one.

JB, I look at the voting for MVP but certainly don't feel bound by it. The more I hear of Cousy, the more I think he was a great passing, mediocre defensive, poor shooting but very flashy player (at least from 1957 on -- am still open for years before that). I have been comparing him to Iverson for that reason -- Iverson also won an MVP and was on a team that went to the finals and I watched him that year and didn't think he deserved half the plaudits he received. To compound the analogy, I thought the key to that playoff run was Dikembe Mutombo who only played half the year with that Philly team. Flashy scorers are generally overrated and Cousy fits that bill.

The 4 keys to winning as I understand them are:
(1) offensive efficiency
(2) turnover differential
(3) defensive efficiency
(4) rebounding differential

Unless Cousy's ballhandling translates into offensive efficiency, I can't see him helping a winning team that much and the Celtics were not an elite offensive team. It could be he changes turnover differential in some fundamental way but I don't see any sign of it in the game film I have watched.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#34 » by ElGee » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:32 am

1957 Estimated Pace-Adjusted Statistics

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Philadelphia  91.4
2.  New York      89.5
3.  St. Louis     87.9
4.  Fort Wayne    87.6
LEAGUE AVG.       87.6
5.  Boston        87.2
6.  Minneapolis   87.1
7.  Syracuse      86.7
8.  Rochester     83.3


DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston        82.8
2.  Rochester     85.3
LEAGUE AVG.       87.6
3.  Minneapolis   87.7
4.  Syracuse      87.9
5.  St. Louis     88.0
6.  New York      89.6
7.  Fort Wayne    89.7
8.  Philadelphia  90.0
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#35 » by penbeast0 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:09 pm

I am really interested to see Boston's DRtg in 1956
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#36 » by bastillon » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:17 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I am really interested to see Boston's DRtg in 1956


56 Celtics - 23 OWS 14 DWS (37 WS)
57 Celtics - 18.2 OWS 30.4 DWS (48.6 WS)

in 72-game schedule 18 DWS is league average. they won twice as many games with defense in 57. 56 Celtics one of the worst in the league. 57 Celtics - dominant in all-time manner.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#37 » by penbeast0 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:58 pm

That's the diffference between Russell for half a season and no Russell at all? wow (Russell in his first year may have had a bigger impact when he played as teams hadn't learned to adjust)

It does make the case more that Red wasn't a great defensive coach either (and we've seen a lot of things that make you wonder about his offensive coaching) . . . still the greatest GM in NBA history; it also indicates that Cousy and Sharman weren't particularly good defensive guards (they didn't have much defensive rep but if the Celts had been good defensively before Russell, it might make you wonder whether they should have been rated higher).

Other possibility is that Heinsohn's bad defensive rep is false since he was there the whole year in 57 whereas Russell only played half. But the reps for this era seem to be borne out by stats so far.
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#38 » by lorak » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:37 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I am really interested to see Boston's DRtg in 1956


I'm using Neil Pain's formula and the results are:

Code: Select all

   1957   
                       drtg
Boston Celtics*        84,7
Rochester Royals       86,5
St. Louis Hawks*       88,6
League Average         89,0
Minneapolis Lakers*    89,1
Syracuse Nationals*    90,1
New York Knickerbockers90,2
Fort Wayne Pistons*    91,3
Philadelphia Warriors* 91,6
      


Code: Select all

   
1956      
                       drtg
Rochester Royals       86,7
St. Louis Hawks*       87,6
Syracuse Nationals*    88,7
League Average         90,0
Fort Wayne Pistons*    90,0
Philadelphia Warriors* 91,0
New York Knickerbockers91,8
Boston Celtics*        91,8
Minneapolis Lakers*    92,2
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#39 » by ElGee » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:49 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I am really interested to see Boston's DRtg in 1956


viewtopic.php?f=344&t=1048645#p24805153
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Re: Retro POY 1956-57 (ends Mon morning) 

Post#40 » by bastillon » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:29 pm

penbeast0 wrote:That's the diffference between Russell for half a season and no Russell at all? wow (Russell in his first year may have had a bigger impact when he played as teams hadn't learned to adjust)

It does make the case more that Red wasn't a great defensive coach either (and we've seen a lot of things that make you wonder about his offensive coaching) . . . still the greatest GM in NBA history; it also indicates that Cousy and Sharman weren't particularly good defensive guards (they didn't have much defensive rep but if the Celts had been good defensively before Russell, it might make you wonder whether they should have been rated higher).

Other possibility is that Heinsohn's bad defensive rep is false since he was there the whole year in 57 whereas Russell only played half. But the reps for this era seem to be borne out by stats so far.


actually for some reason I got 57 numbers wrong, it's actually 17.5 OWS 32 DWS... an even bigger difference.
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