Dan Haren Vs. Ming Wang

[Basketball Jesus]

BP udpates daily...or very close to it. As does fangraphs.com...but they're not as in-depth as BP. But they are free.

I think the Tigers are taking the smart route with Bonderman

[oakfanintheeast]

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BP's hoodwinking us:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/harenda01.php

I demand answers.


The point still stands though: Bonderman's putting up better numbers at a younger age. That's no knock on Haren: he's an awesome pitcher. Bonderman's just more awesome-r.

the numbers were close last year between the two, but the year before, haren's were clearly better as are the numbers so far this year.. not taking age into account.

[cmaff051]

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But I guess the fact that you've seen him extensively the past 3 years, you can tell me about him right? His location in the zone is nearly pinpoint now....

BTW BJ, Haren's STF last year was 21
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/2006OAK-A.php

I personally don't mind all this.. when the A's were playing the Twins last year in the playoffs, I was yelling on my old handle about how Haren will shoot out of the gate next year, as he was keeping most of his pitches down a lot more... and for 1.5 months, has done nothing but prove me right. /selfbackpatting

Again, Daren Haren has a .240 BABIP. He won't keep up even close to what he is doing.

I'll make a friendly bet that his ERA is no lower than 4.

[treyZz]

Who LOL at Sabathia, CC is easily better than Haren.

We finally agree on something.

[FNQ]

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Again, Daren Haren has a .240 BABIP. He won't keep up even close to what he is doing.

I'll make a friendly bet that his ERA is no lower than 4.

An avatar bet sounds good... but BABIP doesnt tell much of a story, since he rarely walks anyone either... and Haren's achilles' is his gopher ball, which he's avoided for the most part this year. It obviously wont stay around .251, itll likely inflate closer to the average .290 of most pitchers. But that stat is only relevant if your also taking into account the fact that Haren rarely walks batters - less than 2 per 9 innings.

But terms can be set anyway you want... I'm not much of a photoshop dude so I'd probably just make you have a Dan Haren avy or something.

[cmaff051]

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An avatar bet sounds good... but BABIP doesnt tell much of a story, since he rarely walks anyone either... and Haren's achilles' is his gopher ball, which he's avoided for the most part this year. It obviously wont stay around .251, itll likely inflate closer to the average .290 of most pitchers. But that stat is only relevant if your also taking into account the fact that Haren rarely walks batters - less than 2 per 9 innings.

But terms can be set anyway you want... I'm not much of a photoshop dude so I'd probably just make you have a Dan Haren avy or something.

BABIP = batting average of balls in play

Not batting average of walks in play.

[FNQ]

No I understand, I'm saying the BABIP in general, since it subtracts K's, HR's and BB's out of the equation, makes Haren's BABIP more impressive, and the fact that the league average is around .290, means that Haren's .299 usual BABIP is probably right around par with the league average...

Basically saying that BAPIP was not made for a pitcher like Haren, who whiffs a lot of batters, walks very few, and his main problem is that he gives up a lot of HRs - leading to a higher BAPIP.

[cmaff051]

No I understand, I'm saying the BABIP in general, since it subtracts K's, HR's and BB's out of the equation, makes Haren's BABIP more impressive, and the fact that the league average is around .290, means that Haren's .299 usual BABIP is probably right around par with the league average...

Basically saying that BAPIP was not made for a pitcher like Haren, who whiffs a lot of batters, walks very few, and his main problem is that he gives up a lot of HRs - leading to a higher BAPIP.

No, a stat like BABIP was made especially for Haren - a pitcher who gives up a lot of hits. 224 in 223 innings.

[bigboy1234]

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We finally agree on something.

Uh oh, I wouldn't check the minor league board then.

[Monkeyfeng06]

i don't watch baseball that well so someone please explain to me this: what kind of pitcher is wang? i mean is he a fastball pitcher like randy johnson or some sinkball specialist like... (i don't know who... name someone famous) plus, why is his strikeout rate so low? alot of people say he's one of those pitchers that let you hit the ball but mostly ground balls. is this true? i don't think wang is a great pitcher yet. he's great, but he's not consistent. at least that's what i think from watching his game.

[Bleeding Green]

He doesn't strike guys out because I'm sure he doesn't alter his approach to do so, and also his stuff isn't that great. He pitches to contact and people pound the ball into the dirt. There aren't any current pitchers who compare to him in terms of strikeouts and groundball tendencies.

[UKF]

Haren everyday of the week and twice on sunday.

[34Celtic]

BABIP = batting average of balls in play

I'll trust my eyes over BABIP. Haren is better.

[FNQ]

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I'll trust my eyes over BABIP. Haren is better.

Was using that as a reference... he was saying that Haren couldnt possibly keep that low of a BABIP (league average is around .290).

With the A's makeshift outfield defense now... it very well could raise to the league average, but with people like Jack Cust and Shannon Stewart logging minutes in the OF, I think it makes Haren's #s twice as impressive...

[34Celtic]

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Was using that as a reference... he was saying that Haren couldnt possibly keep that low of a BABIP (league average is around .290).

With the A's makeshift outfield defense now... it very well could raise to the league average, but with people like Jack Cust and Shannon Stewart logging minutes in the OF, I think it makes Haren's #s twice as impressive...

I'm just saying that I'd rather trust my judgement when watching players instead of using statistics such as range factor BABIP (which is a pretty funny word when you say it out loud....BAAAA-BIP) and VORP, that guys like Bill James uses.

PS I'm a Yankees fan, Haren's that good. But give a guy like Wang some respect, hes a legit pitcher.

[cmaff051]

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I'll trust my eyes over BABIP. Haren is better.

Umm... when did I ever say Wang > Haren. I never said that. Haren is the better pitcher.

But it's ridiculous to just ignore BABIP. It's a predictive value that has a relative mean and when vary from that mean it usually shows that there is a correction in order.

You yourself admitted that you don't follow stats... do you just like to feign ignorance? I mean, what's the use in just ignoring stats? They do have value...

[34Celtic]

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Umm... when did I ever say Wang > Haren. I never said that. Haren is the better pitcher.

But it's ridiculous to just ignore BABIP. It's a predictive value that has a relative mean and when vary from that mean it usually shows that there is a correction in order.

You yourself admitted that you don't follow stats... do you just like to feign ignorance? I mean, what's the use in just ignoring stats? They do have value...

Haren v.s. Wang was the title of the thread. I'm just saying you can learn a lot more by watching a player play by looking at stats. For example anyone who watches Jeter play knows he is the best infielder at going back on a flyball, however his range factor is low. Placido Polanco doesn't have the best 'stats' when you look at his numbers but he far and away strikes out less than anyone in the AL. This is valuable because instead of striking out (like someone such as Adam Dunn) with a guy on second and no one out--Polanco may hit a groundball out the the right side and advance the runner to third. A relief pitcher may come in with guys on second and third and let the runners score, however, these runners do not affect his ERA. A starting pitcher may have an ERA of over 4, but may get a lot of run support--enabling them to pitch to situations and throw more strikes, thus they get hit more. I'm just saying I will trust my eyes on how guys do the little things to help teams win on the baseball field before I trust overall statistics.

[Basketball Jesus]

I don't trust your eyes worth a damn.

[34Celtic]

I don't trust your eyes worth a damn.

Thats fine but you cant tell me you would rather trust "Range Factor" over actually seeing how an outfielder breaks and gets jumps on a ball or an infielders first step to his left or right

[Basketball Jesus]

I don