Isiah Thomas 1990 or Steve Nash 2006, who was better?

[Laimbeer]

This is the thread that never ends....it could go on and on.....

[Jimmy76]

Isiah takes little to no credit for the defense and rebounding and gets some credit for the offense;

That's the description of a roleplayer, and it's vey inaccurate.

there's a reason he didn't make any serious title runs until he declined and the bad boys started up

Isiah's decline didn't start till after 90', and it was due to injuries.

He wasn't a roleplayer but he wasn't what Nash has been to the Suns since 2005 which is the primary and secondary reason for their success

Nash-anything debates seem to really boost post count

[Doctor MJ]

Funny how two of your top players played together on a stacked team and earned a total of one title but Zeke's teams were too loaded for him to get much credit.

That damned nuance! So annoying when you just want one number to explain everything, eh?

I'll ask, do you think any of the Piston teams were better than the '83 76ers?

[mopper8]

Nash-anything debates seem to really boost post count

At least Unbiased Fan isn't in here. I've never seen someone argue so vehemently about such a contentless "point"

[Laimbeer]

I made a point about how most of their success stemmed from the rest of the cast because the strong points of the bad boys was defense and rebounding which the Suns roster had little of but that wasn't due to Nash

Nope, you were talking about quality of teammates. Let me refresh you.

I'm suggesting being on the better team doesn't make you the better player contrary to popular belief on realgm

Do you choose

Dumars/Vinne Johnson
Aguire/Rodman
Edwards/Rodman
Laimbeer/Salley

Or

Bell/Barbosa
James Jones/Tim Thomas
Marion/Tim Thomas
Diaw/Marion

Is it even close?

[Jimmy76]

I made a point about how most of their success stemmed from the rest of the cast because the strong points of the bad boys was defense and rebounding which the Suns roster had little of but that wasn't due to Nash

Nope, you were talking about quality of teammates. Let me refresh you.

I'm suggesting being on the better team doesn't make you the better player contrary to popular belief on realgm

Do you choose

Dumars/Vinne Johnson
Aguire/Rodman
Edwards/Rodman
Laimbeer/Salley

Or

Bell/Barbosa
James Jones/Tim Thomas
Marion/Tim Thomas
Diaw/Marion

Is it even close?

yes...that pistons roster can defend and rebound and generate offense without Isiah, Nash's roster can't

[DatWasNashty]

Can anyone calculate Detroit's ORtg and DRtg when Isiah missed a significant amount of time in 1991? Their record was 31-17 (65%) with him and 19-15 (56%) without him. Their overall performance clearly took a hit but they still seem to be more than decent. I can't imagine us doing that well if Nash goes down. He missed a few games in '05, '06, '07 and '09 and our total record in those years was 6-16 without him. Basically, our team is more dependent on Nash for generating offense and his total value to the Suns is greater than Isiah's value to the Pistons.

[JordansBulls]

I made a point about how most of their success stemmed from the rest of the cast because the strong points of the bad boys was defense and rebounding which the Suns roster had little of but that wasn't due to Nash

Nope, you were talking about quality of teammates. Let me refresh you.

I'm suggesting being on the better team doesn't make you the better player contrary to popular belief on realgm

Do you choose

Dumars/Vinne Johnson
Aguire/Rodman
Edwards/Rodman
Laimbeer/Salley

Or

Bell/Barbosa
James Jones/Tim Thomas
Marion/Tim Thomas
Diaw/Marion

Is it even close?

yes...that pistons roster can defend and rebound and generate offense without Isiah, Nash's roster can't

There was a quote that said that a team takes the attitude of it's best player. Whether Nash was it or Amare, neither are known as defenders.

[lorak]

Can anyone calculate Detroit's ORtg and DRtg when Isiah missed a significant amount of time in 1991? Their record was 31-17 (65%) with him and 19-15 (56%) without him. Their overall performance clearly took a hit but they still seem to be more than decent. I can't imagine us doing that well if Nash goes down. He missed a few games in '05, '06, '07 and '09 and our total record in those years was 6-16 without him. Basically, our team is more dependent on Nash for generating offense and his total value to the Suns is greater than Isiah's value to the Pistons.

with Isiah (48 G): 108.2 ORtg, 104.3 DRtg, 92.5 pace
without Isiah (34 G): 109.4 ORtg, 106.7 DRtg, 90.0 pace

Pistons offense improved without Isiah

[Chicago76]

According to pythag wins, the numbers posted by Stern above estimate 48 wins in a season without Thomas, and 51 with him. The estimate does a good job of predicting wins for Detroit when Thomas played a bit more than half a season. They won 50 games that year.

[DatWasNashty]

Can anyone calculate Detroit's ORtg and DRtg when Isiah missed a significant amount of time in 1991? Their record was 31-17 (65%) with him and 19-15 (56%) without him. Their overall performance clearly took a hit but they still seem to be more than decent. I can't imagine us doing that well if Nash goes down. He missed a few games in '05, '06, '07 and '09 and our total record in those years was 6-16 without him. Basically, our team is more dependent on Nash for generating offense and his total value to the Suns is greater than Isiah's value to the Pistons.

with Isiah (48 G): 108.2 ORtg, 104.3 DRtg, 92.5 pace
without Isiah (34 G): 109.4 ORtg, 106.7 DRtg, 90.0 pace

Pistons offense improved without Isiah

That's a bit suprising. I would've estimated their DRtg to increase with their ORtg taking a hit. I'm guessing I underestimated Isiah's turnovers, inefficiency and his defensive prowess. I would assume Joe Dumars ran the point in Zeke's absence (he played point on occasions with Zeke playing off ball and coming off of baseline screens) and did a damn good job of it. The two months where Zeke didn't play at all, Dumars went on to average 20.9 ppg/7.2 apg and 21.5 ppg/7.4 apg respectively. Mark Aguirre also seemed to have benefitted from Isiah's absence with a bigger role on the offensive end. The person who flourished the most seems to be Vinnie "Microwave" Johnson with increased output and efficiency. Averaged around 15 ppg on much better efficiency.

I would've expected their pace to decrease since Isiah tended to like getting in the open court and make use of his speed and quickness. With Dumars running the show, they ran more halfcourt sets as Joe D liked slowing things down and didn't possess Isiah's athleticism and playmaking ability. Their DRtg taking a hit does surprise me, though. I never thought of Isiah as a great defender although I only saw him in the early 1990s. They probably missed his vocal leadership, fire and aggressiveness on that end. I'm guessing he used to inspire his team to play defense. Dunno. Taking wild guesses here. Only saw the Pistons on national TV (NBC).

In any case, I think the Pistons' performance without Isiah does point to him having a relatively better team around him than Nash did and Nash being more valuable and having a greater impact on team success than Isiah.

[lorak]

[quote="DatWasNashty"][Their DRtg taking a hit does surprise me, though. I never thought of Isiah as a great defender although I only saw him in the early 1990s. They probably missed his vocal leadership, fire and aggressiveness on that end. I'm guessing he used to inspire his team to play defense. Dunno. Taking wild guesses here. Only saw the Pistons on national TV (NBC). /quote]

IMO we all tend to underestimate value of steals (and so forced turnovers). And this case is the best example of value of steals. Isiah never was great, or even very good defender, but it seems his steals had great value to Pistons defense:

with Isiah: 6.7 SPG, 14.3 opp TOV
without Isiah 4.9 SPG, 11.9 opp TOV

That's the only significant difference when I'm looking at Pistons stats with and without Isiah. Well, maybe opp FTA are also important: 25.6 with Isiah, 27.7 without Isiah in slower paced game - so I'll assume that Isiah steals were "wise steals". He didn't foul (that's why less opp FTA with him) and he didn't gamble too much (that's why with him Pistons had higher DRtg).

For me that changes this comparison, probably Nash still is the winner in my eyes, but difference is smaller than I thought several days ago

[Chicago76]

DS,
Since you have talked about TOVs and Ortg/Drtg with and without Thomas. I was wondering if you have a breakout of the offensive and defensive 4 factors for Detroit and their opponent with/without Thomas (eFG%, FTA/FGA, ORB%/DRB%, TOV%).

[lorak]

Code: Select all

           with - without

TOV%       12.7 - 12.7
opp TOV%   13.3 - 11.2
ORB%      0.328 - 0.173
DRB%      0.715 - 0.702
opp ORB%  0.285 - 0.298
opp DRB%  0.672 - 0.827
eFG%      0.474 - 0.474
opp eFG%  0.469 - 0.458      
FT/FGA    0.258 - 0.227
oppFT/FGA 0.242 - 0.258


[nate33]

The DRtg took a hit without Isiah because Vinnie Johnson was a lousy defender.

[Dr Positivity]

Nash is clearly better IMO. Shooting and playmaking gives him a clear edge

Isiah did a very good job running that loaded team. I liked Bill Simmons comparison of running the Pistons being like running a Ferrari with all those gears. But you can't give him any more credit for intangibles and leadership than Nash. Who has more of those things than Nash? It's not like we're comparing Isiah to Tmac.

[Laimbeer]

Funny how two of your top players played together on a stacked team and earned a total of one title but Zeke's teams were too loaded for him to get much credit.

That damned nuance! So annoying when you just want one number to explain everything, eh?

I'll ask, do you think any of the Piston teams were better than the '83 76ers?

I'd have to say the Sixers would be favored in a series that would turn out far tougher than expected. Remember the Bad Boys stood toe to toe with Magic and Bird's hallowed teams.

The Sixers roster was loaded beyond Moses and Doc. Erving played with so much talent after he got to the NBA it was silly. But the talent always seemed to be "misfits" until Doc was no longer the man.

I just think there's something of a double standard.

[Doctor MJ]

Funny how two of your top players played together on a stacked team and earned a total of one title but Zeke's teams were too loaded for him to get much credit.

That damned nuance! So annoying when you just want one number to explain everything, eh?

I'll ask, do you think any of the Piston teams were better than the '83 76ers?

I'd have to say the Sixers would be favored in a series that would turn out far tougher than expected. Remember the Bad Boys stood toe to toe with Magic and Bird's hallowed teams.

The Sixers roster was loaded beyond Moses and Doc. Erving played with so much talent after he got to the NBA it was silly. But the talent always seemed to be "misfits" until Doc was no longer the man.

I just think there's something of a double standard.

Well so there's a few things here:

1) You brought up how the 76ers only won 1 title, but recognize that pretty much no one thinks any of the Pistons teams were better than that 76ers team. The reason for that 76ers team only have the one really good year together obviously had a lot to do with the fact that it got thrown together with Erving & Moses not being spring chickens. There's zero reason to think they couldn't have similar success for many years if the team had come together sooner, so the "Detroit 2, Philly 1" comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense on that front.

2) "Erving played with so much talent". Well we've been over this again and again. When Erving arrived in Philly, they had a ton of talent on a horribly constructed team. They re-built with reasonable fit around Erving, and proceeded to do significantly better, only losing to the aforementioned Celtics and Lakers.

3) So that brings us to "Well the Pistons beat the Celtics and Lakers". Well first of all, the idea that Erving's pre-Moses 80s 76ers had more supporting cast talent than Isiah's title winning Pistons is just blatantly wrong.

Beyond that, let's remember that the Showtime Lakers had been around winning or competing for titles for 8 years before they even faced the Pistons in the playoffs. These Lakers and Celtics dominated for a LONG time. They were in their autumn years, and someone had to knock them off. So when I see a team with SRS that's completely unimpressive compared to the other big teams of the same era, and a team that managed to win 55 games all of 2 times, it just doesn't seem like any double standard win that team isn't considered the equal of those other teams.

[penbeast0]

[Their DRtg taking a hit does surprise me, though. I never thought of Isiah as a great defender although I only saw him in the early 1990s. They probably missed his vocal leadership, fire and aggressiveness on that end. I'm guessing he used to inspire his team to play defense. Dunno. Taking wild guesses here. Only saw the Pistons on national TV (NBC). /quote]

IMO we all tend to underestimate value of steals (and so forced turnovers). And this case is the best example of value of steals. Isiah never was great, or even very good defender, but it seems his steals had great value to Pistons defense:

with Isiah: 6.7 SPG, 14.3 opp TOV
without Isiah 4.9 SPG, 11.9 opp TOV

That's the only significant difference when I'm looking at Pistons stats with and without Isiah. Well, maybe opp FTA are also important: 25.6 with Isiah, 27.7 without Isiah in slower paced game - so I'll assume that Isiah steals were "wise steals". He didn't foul (that's why less opp FTA with him) and he didn't gamble too much (that's why with him Pistons had higher DRtg).

For me that changes this comparison, probably Nash still is the winner in my eyes, but difference is smaller than I thought several days ago

Not a big Isiah fan but I will say that he gets underrated defensively. Although Stockton made the All-Def team, Isiah probably had the edge defensively by a little bit. He was a tough, nasty defender particularly against smaller guards who he loved to beat up.

[Brenice]

Funny that Isiah loses points for playing on a stacked squad, which in fact was overrating those pistons anyway. Rodman was not the Rodman of the Bulls. Mahorn? A one-dimensional center. Laimbeer? He was ok, but he doesn't make your squad "stacked". Stacked squads were the Lakers and Celtics of Isiah's era. That is the reason he has only 2 rings, just like Jordan was the reason, say Hakeem has only 2 rings. Isiah had to go thru Boston(Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ + others). Aguire was not the Aguire of the Dallas days. He was not as good as the guy he replaced, Dantley. Aguire was a bad fit. John Salley? Please. James Donaldson?

The best player on Isiah's teams was Isiah during his peak. Dumars was his Robin. They had a stacked backcourt. It was always Isiah's team.

Nash is a great player, no doubt. But he was not as good as Isiah. Isiah could take over offensively, running the offense and scoring. Nash is a good shooter, but he can't take over offensively. I'm waiting for him to take over an all-star game, since he is so great. Before that gets played down, a lot of the greats have done that too. Now Nash does make people on his team better, better than Isiah did, but you still got the defensive side of the ball too.

And ask the Mailman what he would rather have, a regular season MVP award or a Playoff MVP/Ring?