Magic Johnson

[dub81]

I feel what everybody is saying and I respect it. But I believe this proves that in order to be great you gotta have a great cast around you. Great GM, Great coach, and great players. If all the stars are not aligned, you gonna end up being a notch below great.

The only conclusion is that we've gone full circle to your original admission that you weren't around during Magic's prime and that it was a waste of everyone's time to answer your question --> you just didn't like the responses.

So you know what I'm thinking now right? You quoted my post and I said that I respect everybody's opinion. But people like you give this board a bad name when you cannot respect other peoples opinion and roll with it. Stop acting like a clown. I'm sure you were raised better than that.

[tsherkin]

hourockman,

I think the point is, a player can be individually great independent of team success... but without teammates, coaching, luck in the playoffs, etc, that player will never be a truly great player in the annals of basketball history. Luck plays a HUGE role, and I believe that's what dub was after.

[dub81]

hourockman,

I think the point is, a player can be individually great independent of team success... but without teammates, coaching, luck in the playoffs, etc, that player will never be a truly great player in the annals of basketball history. Luck plays a HUGE role, and I believe that's what dub was after.

Thank you.....

Just like Jordan would not be Jordan if not for Phil, Pippen and his supporting cast.

Same for Shaq, Kobe and Magic...

I'm pretty sure Magic would still be a HOFamer without his supporting cast and still would be considered the greatest PG ever. But I don't think he would be named 1 of the GOATS without help.

[LAKERS_1981]

Magic Johnson is the greatest player of all time.

There is a elite group of Bird, Jordan, Magic, Jabbar, Wilt and i put Magic number 1.

p.s I think Kobe will end in this group.

[Kilroy]

Magic Johnson is the greatest player of all time.

There is a elite group of Bird, Jordan, Magic, Jabbar, Wilt and i put Magic number 1.

p.s I think Kobe will end in this group.

That's where I think it gets sticky and where all the Kobe/MJ hate/discussion comes into play...

All those players are different, but there are similarities in styles of play that I think polarize people and make certain comparisons so heated.

MJ was probably the greatest individual achiever in NBA history followed closely by Wilt and Kobe... There's clearly a superficial similarity in playing style, vision, and approach to the game in MJ and Kobe. I personally don't think it's very deep. But that's the main reason you get all the Kobe/MJ drama. If there wasn't as much of a similarity, the discussion wouldn't go so far because people just like different things in players with different styles.

If your main attraction to the NBA is watching guys like that be brilliant night in and night out with a secondary concern of how their team does in the league, MJ will likely always be your best ever. And behind him you have to start talking about Kobe sooner or later because they play a similar style of ball. Even Kobe will say he tried to copy MJ a lot in the beginning.

Magic was different. He was a personal showman, leader and transcendent talent for sure, but unlike MJ, Wilt and Kobe, he understood from way back that a well-oiled team is going to destroy an incredible individual talent every time. It didn't take him until his 5th or so year in the league to figure it out. He was the greatest 'Frontman' in NBA history. He took over a team with the likes of one of the NBA's biggest egos in Kap, from the second he stepped on the floor. But he did it by lifting the individual performances of everyone. Not by leading by example and scoring in buckets.

So if you are a fan of complete teams and beautifully executed offenses with a secondary love of transcendent individual talent, it's going to be Magic, Bird, Duncan for you...

Nobody's right. They're all great. And as long as it doesn't become a case where a certain group can't handle the fact that another will never agree with them, the discussion is fun.

I'm a Magic-man myself, but I know a huge portion of NBA fans will never agree with me... That's fine with me... But I'm right.

[Anklebreaker702]

Magic = G.O.A.T. see avi

I got Kareem as the GOAT but can't go wrong with Magic dude was a beast I think he easily could of averaged a triple double on a mediocre team

Can't argue either way

[sgold1961]

I hope this answers your question:

l. a. lakers fast break makers
kings of the court shake and bake all takers
back to back is a bad ass fact a claim that remains in tact
m-a-g-i-c see you on the court
buck has come to play his way and his way is to thwart
m-a-g-i-c magic of the buck
other teams pray for dreams
but he don't give a ----
penetrating the lane like a bullet train
comes the magic blood a telepathic brain
knucklehead suckers better duck
when the buck comes through like a truck
scott stops pops and drops it in
on his way back gets a little skin
from the hand of a man named a. c. green
slam so hard break your t.v. screen
worthy's hot with his tomahawk
take it to the hole make your mamma talk
i hate to burst your bubble but triple double trouble
is coming to your town and he's going to make rubble
l. a. lakers fast break makers
kings of the court shake and bake all takers
back to back is a bad ass fact a claim that remains in tact
m-a-g-i-c see you in purple and gold
You can swim, but you won't get far so you might as well go home
m-a-g-i-c in buck we trust
Restoring order to the court and justice is a must
lakers are the team that i watch on the telly
cause they got more moves
that a bowl full of jelly
the buck stops here - pops - then cheers
a roar through the forum
that deafens my ears
the one and only know if his kind
sits in a throne
not for the records that he holds
but for being bald and bold
kareem abdul jabbar
all time great super super star
i hate to burst your bubble but triple double trouble
is coming to your town and he's going to make rubble
does anybody want some magic johnson
l. a. lakers fast break makers
kings of the court shake and bake all takers
back to back is a bad ass fact a claim that remains in tact!

[hourockman]

hourockman,

I think the point is, a player can be individually great independent of team success... but without teammates, coaching, luck in the playoffs, etc, that player will never be a truly great player in the annals of basketball history. Luck plays a HUGE role, and I believe that's what dub was after.

My problem w/ his post was the "who made who better" claim. Essentially, if he feels that way, he's suggesting that it was at least 50/50 that his teammates made HIM better, which I think has been proven otherwise noting where they were before he got here and also proven otherwise by where they were after he left (the general tapering of the effectiveness of his former teammates).

Also, he's suggesting that it's questionable whether Magic would be considered an all time great if he didn't have talent surrounding him. There are at least a few sore thumb examples (Stockton, Malone, Nique) who are readily available to nix that suspicion. That kind of logic is the kind of double bind that opposing fans and trolls like to put Kobe in, where they dismiss everything about his greatness that they can, often in a contradictory manner. Granted, dub81 probably didn't mean any harm, but the effect is still the same. I sit here thinking, how many other players does dub81 know of who could pick up 20 assists w/ Tony Smith and Campbell in a Finals game? I have a low tolerance for people so certain about players they didn't see. You'll never see me say much about Jerry West after I admit that I never saw him play....

[hourockman]

If your main attraction to the NBA is watching guys like that be brilliant night in and night out with a secondary concern of how their team does in the league, MJ will likely always be your best ever. And behind him you have to start talking about Kobe sooner or later because they play a similar style of ball. Even Kobe will say he tried to copy MJ a lot in the beginning.

Magic was different. He was a personal showman, leader and transcendent talent for sure, but unlike MJ, Wilt and Kobe, he understood from way back that a well-oiled team is going to destroy an incredible individual talent every time. It didn't take him until his 5th or so year in the league to figure it out.

Great point and one that has largely been selectively forgotten by Jordan's rabid admirers. Not only did Jordan's teammates hate him before 91, but he hated Phil's "equal opportunity offense" (Jordan's own term for it) and Mike ragged on Krause's inability to get him enough help THE SAME YEAR the Bulls actually won it for the first time.........AFTER he finally internalized Phil's gameplan. The landscape of the league opened up for them that year due to key injuries in DET and BOS and LA taking Portland out of the mix (along w/ our own key injuries). Once Mike "saw the light" and got that first one, it was game over for the league.

[twix2500]

I got Wilt as the G.O.A.T, Jordan aftewards and then Magic. But Magic will always be my favorite player of all time. He is the reason I started my basketball career. His ability to dominate the court was incredible, and no other player ever made their players better than how magic did. I tried to mimic my game after him, it was impossible cause im not 6'9 or 6'10 LOL. There never been a player who can dominate at all five positions, Magic stands alone in that.....

[tsherkin]

Also, he's suggesting that it's questionable whether Magic would be considered an all time great if he didn't have talent surrounding him. There are at least a few sore thumb examples (Stockton, Malone, Nique) who are readily available to nix that suspicion. That kind of logic is the kind of double bind that opposing fans and trolls like to put Kobe in, where they dismiss everything about his greatness that they can, often in a contradictory manner. Granted, dub81 probably didn't mean any harm, but the effect is still the same. I sit here thinking, how many other players does dub81 know of who could pick up 20 assists w/ Tony Smith and Campbell in a Finals game? I have a low tolerance for people so certain about players they didn't see. You'll never see me say much about Jerry West after I admit that I never saw him play....

True enough, well-put.