Post Game: Dolphins

[paulpressey25]

I don't think Brett Favre ever had a bad line with us. Not until 2005, at least.

It is a fun exercise to go back through the Favre years and see what each of those teams had.

If you start back in 1992 through 2005, Favre dealt with everything. Some years he is passing to Brooks, Freeman, Driver, Keith Jackson and Chewy. Other years he's passing to Bill Schroeder, Derrick Mayes and Tyrone Davis.

Some years he had Dorsey and Ahman running behind him and other years he's got Darrick Holmes, Travis Jervey and Raymont Harris as his backfield.

Some years had had a rock like Clifton protecting his blindside. In the Super-Bowl years he had two mediocre rookies (Jon Michaels and Ross Verba) and a journeyman (Wilkerson) in what during some games back then was a turnstile at the left tackle position.

In 1996 he's got the #1 D in the league. In 2004 he's needing to put up 30 points per game for us to have a chance.

Just getting nostalgic for the old guy with the crocs. After we all get over the soap opera of the last three years, I think we'll look back at amazement at what the guy did. And our expectations of Rodgers will adjust accordingly.

[ReddRum]

The main problem with this team is that McCarthy can't call the plays that he wants to because TT (the most ridiculous GM of all time) will not get him help on the OL, at LB, or get him a starting caliber RB. The other problem is that even with the amount of injuries and lack of depth on this team, McCarthy makes crucial mistakes at critical parts of the game. I can't tell you how many times we throw a 4-5 yard dump pass when its 3rd and long, and with how potent our offense can be to play it that safe the majority of the time is simply absurd. The special teams are absolutely terrible: horrible punting, field goals missed in clutch situations, no return game and average coverage after punts.

Obviously the injuries can be hard to overcome but there is no excuse for the lack of discipline on this team and penalties have killed this teams chances in a number of games already. I hate to say it but if we don't make some major changes and soon this team will be 8-8 and out of the playoffs in no time. We have the damn cap room - there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not bringing in players to give this team a boost. I don't know if TT is stubborn, or just plain stupid, but something needs to be done before his ass gets fired and before rare talent that guys like Woodson, A-Rod, and Matthews have is completely wasted.

[Newz]

The line that Favre had when Thompson came in here was pretty damn good... It was just paid an absurd amount of money (the guards were at least, IIRC) and was putting us into some serious financial trouble.

[humanrefutation]

So, to break it down:

The Offense isn't playing well.
The defense's inability to get off the field hurts the offense.
The Offense still ins't playing well.

Is that so ridiculous?

You are pretty much saying "Look our offense sucks and our defense is playing well. Then our defense starts to get tired and gives up some long drives and our offense still sucks."

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that our offense sucks and our defense isn't much better. Read.

What I'm also saying is that the relationship is cyclical. The defense isn't just "tired" - it's not getting pressure on the QB, it's not stopping the run, it's not doing anything that effectively. How is the offense at fault for that?

We're not getting shut out on offense. We're still putting up points, just not enough points. In fact, we're usually putting pretty close to the same numbers on offense and defense points wise. I'm NOT saying that the offense is playing well. I AM saying that the offense is playing poorly. I AM saying that the offense's poor play is feeding into the defense and vice versa.

[emunney]

I think Favre's uncanny ability to almost always make at least one guy miss made our pass protection seem better than it was. If there is one thing Rodgers is missing, it's that 6th sense pocket awareness.

[Newz]

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that our offense sucks and our defense isn't much better. Read.

What I'm also saying is that the relationship is cyclical. The defense isn't just "tired" - it's not getting pressure on the QB, it's not stopping the run, it's not doing anything that effectively. How is the offense at fault for that?

We're not getting shut out on offense. We're still putting up points, just not enough points. In fact, we're usually putting pretty close to the same numbers on offense and defense points wise. I'm NOT saying that the offense is playing well. I AM saying that the offense is playing poorly. I AM saying that the offense's poor play is feeding into the defense and vice versa.

I am reading.

Your trying to say the defense has an effect on the offense. I'm trying to say that it hasn't and that pretty much every argument you have brought up to try and prove it does makes no sense.

The defense is on the field for long periods of time after our offense is continuously having two minute long possessions. So what? In the end we are still just averaging 2 and a half minutes per drive, which is pathetic for an offense that is supposed to be as high powered as ours is.

The defense isn't pressuring the QB? Don't we have the league leader in sacks? Who cares if it isn't stopping them completely? It's limiting them to 20 or so points...

If you told me before the season that our defense would have held opponents to 20, 7, 17, 26, 13, 20 and 23 points in the first six weeks, I would have told you that we would be 5-1 with a very strong chance at being 6-0.

The defense is holding up it's end of the bargain, the offense is not. You can try to defend the offense all you want. The play calling has been awful, Rodgers has been awful, the WRs have been awful (drops/not getting open nearly enough. We have given up a lot of coverage sacks it seems), the offensive line has played average at best and we lost our RB/TE. In the end, after those injuries we still have enough talent where we should be scoring all over teams though.

Trying to blame the defense for our offense playing like total **** is absolutely ridiculous.

[xTitan]

(And didn't Rodgers hint two weeks ago that he didn't want us to run since we had these passing weapons and a mediocre run game)

I don't know that he went that far. It seemed like it was more a personnel package decision than a run v. pass, though the former is probably also there if you want it to be.

No not at all, he wanted the best players on the field, he also wanted Lynch, which would be having one of their best atheltes on the field.

[xTitan]

I'm willing to bet the reason that they only have the ball for 17 minutes is because they have been horrible at extending drives.

It's also hard to get off of the field when you do finally force a punt/TO and your offense three and outs right away...
Everything points back to the offense. It was supposed to be the strength of this team. Rodgers was supposed to be a legit MVP candidate, Finley was supposed to become the most deadly weapon in the NFL, the offense line was supposed to be better and the WR core was supposed to continue to be very good.

None of that has really come true though, the offense has just sucked.

So let me get this straight....when you FINALLY get off the field, how about this....perhaps your defense can force a 3 and out once in awhile, thats is an interesting concept, instead of FINALLY getting off the field....if the opponents can force a 3 and out, why can't you do it on a consistent basis?

[humanrefutation]

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that our offense sucks and our defense isn't much better. Read.

What I'm also saying is that the relationship is cyclical. The defense isn't just "tired" - it's not getting pressure on the QB, it's not stopping the run, it's not doing anything that effectively. How is the offense at fault for that?

We're not getting shut out on offense. We're still putting up points, just not enough points. In fact, we're usually putting pretty close to the same numbers on offense and defense points wise. I'm NOT saying that the offense is playing well. I AM saying that the offense is playing poorly. I AM saying that the offense's poor play is feeding into the defense and vice versa.

The defense is holding up it's end of the bargain, the offense is not. You can try to defend the offense all you want. The play calling has been awful, Rodgers has been awful, the WRs have been awful (drops/not getting open nearly enough. We have given up a lot of coverage sacks it seems), the offensive line has played average at best and we lost our RB/TE. In the end, after those injuries we still have enough talent where we should be scoring all over teams though.

Trying to blame the defense for our offense playing like total **** is absolutely ridiculous.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because this argument is not going anywhere. We're both saying the offense is doing poorly. We're both generally agreeing about most of the reasons why the offense isn't playing poorly.

But I'm not going to let the defense off the hook for our record, either. Sure, the offense has struggled. But a defense that can't consistently give 3-and-outs, especially in big games, isn't helping matters, either.

[trwi7]

I'm willing to bet the reason that they only have the ball for 17 minutes is because they have been horrible at extending drives.

It's also hard to get off of the field when you do finally force a punt/TO and your offense three and outs right away...
Everything points back to the offense. It was supposed to be the strength of this team. Rodgers was supposed to be a legit MVP candidate, Finley was supposed to become the most deadly weapon in the NFL, the offense line was supposed to be better and the WR core was supposed to continue to be very good.

None of that has really come true though, the offense has just sucked.

So let me get this straight....when you FINALLY get off the field, how about this....perhaps your defense can force a 3 and out once in awhile, thats is an interesting concept, instead of FINALLY getting off the field....if the opponents can force a 3 and out, why can't you do it on a consistent basis?

Maybe they could if they weren't missing Jolly, Pickett, Matthews, Harris, Bigby, Barnett, Chillar, Neal and Jenkins playing with a giant club on his hand?

[TurdFerguson3]

I'm willing to bet the reason that they only have the ball for 17 minutes is because they have been horrible at extending drives.

It's also hard to get off of the field when you do finally force a punt/TO and your offense three and outs right away...
Everything points back to the offense. It was supposed to be the strength of this team. Rodgers was supposed to be a legit MVP candidate, Finley was supposed to become the most deadly weapon in the NFL, the offense line was supposed to be better and the WR core was supposed to continue to be very good.

None of that has really come true though, the offense has just sucked.

So let me get this straight....when you FINALLY get off the field, how about this....perhaps your defense can force a 3 and out once in awhile, thats is an interesting concept, instead of FINALLY getting off the field....if the opponents can force a 3 and out, why can't you do it on a consistent basis?

Maybe they could if they weren't missing Jolly, Pickett, Matthews, Harris, Bigby, Barnett, Chillar, Neal and Jenkins playing with a giant club on his hand?

and because our offense couldnt give them enough time to rest because of missing finley, grant, tauscher, banged up rodgers banged up driver, banged up lee, james jones (still healthy)

[El Duderino]

Yes, it's cyclical. That was my point. One's faults feed into the other's.

The offense isn't doing anything different because of the defense... The offense is just playing like total garbage and the defense is suffering for it.

I don't see how our defense is effecting our offense at all is basically what I'm getting at.

I think the fact that the defense can't get off the field is effecting the offense. And I don't mean just that they're forced onto the field by several sputtering offensive drives, which the D can't be blamed for, but that when they get on the field, they're on for long, time consuming, rhythm-killing drives. Sitting on the bench for an 8 minute drive waiting to get the ball kills any momentum you have on offense, and makes you impatient when you get on offense. You can see that in Rodgers play - more harried, more downfield shots, less patience. And thus, the offense sputters and the D is put right back on the field for another long drive.

That's how they're related.

I agree somewhat to what you're saying, but a big reason the Dolphins were able to stay on the field so much was that Matthews wasn't on the field. It was the same case in the second half of the Redskins game after Clay left with his hamstring problem. Even the Lions game and their big time of possession gap IMO was related to Matthews. While he played in that game, the Lions did a pretty good job in neutralizing Matthews.

When Clay is out on the field and creating chaos, the defense usually is effective and getting off the field on 3rd down. When he's being neutralized or he's hurt and not on the field though, the pass rush either suffers greatly or completely vanishes because the LB unit is devoid of any other players with legit pass rush abilities. When that pass rush largely vanishes, opposing offenses keep the chains moving much easier and our offense gets less possessions to potentially score points regardless of the fact our offense certainly has been erratic.

We saw this last season also. The lack of any other playmaking linebackers leaves the defense so incredibly reliant on Matthews to create chaos which then leads to 3rd down stops and turnovers.

[El Duderino]

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that our offense sucks and our defense isn't much better. Read.

What I'm also saying is that the relationship is cyclical. The defense isn't just "tired" - it's not getting pressure on the QB, it's not stopping the run, it's not doing anything that effectively. How is the offense at fault for that?

We're not getting shut out on offense. We're still putting up points, just not enough points. In fact, we're usually putting pretty close to the same numbers on offense and defense points wise. I'm NOT saying that the offense is playing well. I AM saying that the offense is playing poorly. I AM saying that the offense's poor play is feeding into the defense and vice versa.

I am reading.

Your trying to say the defense has an effect on the offense. I'm trying to say that it hasn't and that pretty much every argument you have brought up to try and prove it does makes no sense.

The defense is on the field for long periods of time after our offense is continuously having two minute long possessions. So what? In the end we are still just averaging 2 and a half minutes per drive, which is pathetic for an offense that is supposed to be as high powered as ours is.

The defense isn't pressuring the QB? Don't we have the league leader in sacks? Who cares if it isn't stopping them completely? It's limiting them to 20 or so points...

If you told me before the season that our defense would have held opponents to 20, 7, 17, 26, 13, 20 and 23 points in the first six weeks, I would have told you that we would be 5-1 with a very strong chance at being 6-0.

The defense is holding up it's end of the bargain, the offense is not. You can try to defend the offense all you want. The play calling has been awful, Rodgers has been awful, the WRs have been awful (drops/not getting open nearly enough. We have given up a lot of coverage sacks it seems), the offensive line has played average at best and we lost our RB/TE. In the end, after those injuries we still have enough talent where we should be scoring all over teams though.

Trying to blame the defense for our offense playing like total **** is absolutely ridiculous.

I don't think you're fully getting what humanrefutation is saying?

What i think he's saying is that the defense being unable to get off the field isn't so much hurting the execution of our offense, it's simply limiting the number of possessions that the offense would have to potentially score points even though the offense obviously had been wildly inconsistent.

Look at the Miami game. In the 3rd quarter, the Dolphins had the ball for nearly the whole 3rd quarter. Yea the Packer offense was terrible in the one drive they had the ball and Miami only scored 3 points in that quarter, but the Packer offense did only have one possession to try and do something in the 3rd quarter largely because the Packer defense couldn't get off the field.

Same thing happened vs the Lions. Yea the Packer offense was bad in the 2nd half, but the Lions offense converted so often on 3rd down and stayed on the field so much that it limited the number of offensive possessions we had in the 2nd half.

I fully agree that the offense deserves much more blame for only being 3-3, but i do agree with humanrefutation that only looking at the point totals the defense has given up doesn't tell the whole story. They are giving up to many time eating drives and it's thus lessening the number of possessions our offense gets.

[El Duderino]

I'm willing to bet the reason that they only have the ball for 17 minutes is because they have been horrible at extending drives.

It's also hard to get off of the field when you do finally force a punt/TO and your offense three and outs right away...
Everything points back to the offense. It was supposed to be the strength of this team. Rodgers was supposed to be a legit MVP candidate, Finley was supposed to become the most deadly weapon in the NFL, the offense line was supposed to be better and the WR core was supposed to continue to be very good.

None of that has really come true though, the offense has just sucked.

So let me get this straight....when you FINALLY get off the field, how about this....perhaps your defense can force a 3 and out once in awhile, thats is an interesting concept, instead of FINALLY getting off the field....if the opponents can force a 3 and out, why can't you do it on a consistent basis?

Maybe they could if they weren't missing Jolly, Pickett,Matthews, Harris, Bigby, Barnett, Chillar, Neal and Jenkins playing with a giant club on his hand?

I'm not trying to overly minimize all the injuries on defense because they all do hurt given the large amount of missing players.

That said, neither Barnett or Chillar were playing that well before getting hurt. Bishop has played better than Barnett did. The team knew going into the year that Harris wouldn't be ready.

The only three guys injured that i think badly hurt the defense in the last two losses was Pickett and Neal vs the Dolphins which allowed them to probably run the ball better and the massive killer injury was Matthews leaving the game vs Washington and him not playing at all yesterday.

If Clay was able to finish the Redskins game and he played Sunday vs Miami, we win at least one of those games and maybe both. He's the Aaron Rodgers of our defense, the only completely irreplaceable guy on the defense like Rodgers is to the offense. When Matthews isn't on the field or he's being neutralized, it has an impact all through the whole defense. We look like a completely different defense with him on the sidelines because offenses can just double Jenkins and/or Raji, then there is nobody left in the front seven to be disruptive and make plays. Not only much fewer sacks and pressures, it's a lot harder to create turnovers when the QB can take a nap before throwing the ball.

Matthews can't miss another game or any playoff hopes to Packers have left will vanish just as their pass rush has without him.

[th87]

i completely agree with humanrefutation that defense and offense have had a synergistic effect on each other. the defense has not been good. that seemed evident just by watching them. the dolphins were blowing our guys off the line of scrimmage, and i'm surprised they didn't run more. we were actually fortunate that they only scored 23, and got really lucky on that missed call on 4th down. allowing long drives have affected the offense's rhythm, making them look even worse than they have been. and don't underestimate the effect that long drives have on field position.

[Rockmaninoff]

So, the Packers are supposed to have the #1 defense in the league? I thought it was their offense that was highly touted prior to the season?

An offense that good should be able to effectively use the possessions that they get. The defense, even though total decimated by injury, is limiting opponents to a paltry 17.5 points per game. Which generally is average, but considering the circumstances is extraordinary. These are winnable margins folks...

...if the offense...

[humanrefutation]

I'm glad someone finally got what I was saying - El Dude, xTitan, th87, etc.

I agree somewhat to what you're saying, but a big reason the Dolphins were able to stay on the field so much was that Matthews wasn't on the field. It was the same case in the second half of the Redskins game after Clay left with his hamstring problem. Even the Lions game and their big time of possession gap IMO was related to Matthews. While he played in that game, the Lions did a pretty good job in neutralizing Matthews.

When Clay is out on the field and creating chaos, the defense usually is effective and getting off the field on 3rd down. When he's being neutralized or he's hurt and not on the field though, the pass rush either suffers greatly or completely vanishes because the LB unit is devoid of any other players with legit pass rush abilities. When that pass rush largely vanishes, opposing offenses keep the chains moving much easier and our offense gets less possessions to potentially score points regardless of the fact our offense certainly has been erratic.

We saw this last season also. The lack of any other playmaking linebackers leaves the defense so incredibly reliant on Matthews to create chaos which then leads to 3rd down stops and turnovers.

I agree completely here. Matthews loss has had an inexorable impact on our pass rush, and that has in turn effected the rest of our defensive play. Because his pass rush isn't there, and because the defense can't get off the field, the offense has less shots at scoring. Are they wildly inconsistent when they get the ball? Certainly, but I believe part of that inconsistency is related to the fact that they just don't have the ball as often as they need to (which is both the fault of their offensive play and the defense's inability to get off the field).

i completely agree with humanrefutation that defense and offense have had a synergistic effect on each other. the defense has not been good. that seemed evident just by watching them. the dolphins were blowing our guys off the line of scrimmage, and i'm surprised they didn't run more. we were actually fortunate that they only scored 23, and got really lucky on that missed call on 4th down. allowing long drives have affected the offense's rhythm, making them look even worse than they have been. and don't underestimate the effect that long drives have on field position.

The field position argument is something I didn't touch on, but the defense's inability to force 3 and outs leads to worse field position, and combining that with our poor ST play, it seems that we consistently start on our 20 and our opponent starts on their 30 or 40.

Granted, our offense could help by sustaining longer drives. But I also think that the field position game has really harmed their ability to put up points.

[Newz]

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because this argument is not going anywhere. We're both saying the offense is doing poorly. We're both generally agreeing about most of the reasons why the offense isn't playing poorly.

But I'm not going to let the defense off the hook for our record, either. Sure, the offense has struggled. But a defense that can't consistently give 3-and-outs, especially in big games, isn't helping matters, either.

I'm not saying that the defense is some sort of dominant force that is going to win us games. Right now, with all of the injuries, the defense is overachieving and I'd say is slightly above average.

I think you'd see more forced 3 and outs or short possessions if they could stay off of the field a bit. The reason that they cannot is because the offense is averaging two and a half minutes per drive. For an offense that is as talented as the Packers, that is absolutely pathetic.

When the offense picks it up, the defense will continue to improve just because they'll be fresher. If the defense picks it up and stops people in only 3 plays, I really don't see how that helps the offense a whole lot... They just get their chance to suck faster than they did before.

Right now I'd say I'd put 90% of the blame on the offense and 10% on the defense. I am really, really disappointed in just about everything on the offensive side of the ball.

[El Duderino]

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because this argument is not going anywhere. We're both saying the offense is doing poorly. We're both generally agreeing about most of the reasons why the offense isn't playing poorly.

But I'm not going to let the defense off the hook for our record, either. Sure, the offense has struggled. But a defense that can't consistently give 3-and-outs, especially in big games, isn't helping matters, either.

I'm not saying that the defense is some sort of dominant force that is going to win us games. Right now, with all of the injuries, the defense is overachieving and I'd say is slightly above average.

I think you'd see more forced 3 and outs or short possessions if they could stay off of the field a bit. The reason that they cannot is because the offense is averaging two and a half minutes per drive. For an offense that is as talented as the Packers, that is absolutely pathetic.

When the offense picks it up, the defense will continue to improve just because they'll be fresher. If the defense picks it up and stops people in only 3 plays, I really don't see how that helps the offense a whole lot... They just get their chance to suck faster than they did before.

Right now I'd say I'd put 90% of the blame on the offense and 10% on the defense. I am really, really disappointed in just about everything on the offensive side of the ball.

This is where i disagree with you. I don't think the defense is struggling to get off the field because they are gassed from our offense failing to sustain drives. I think they are failing to get off the field because they can't generate a pass rush without Matthews around to create pressure.

When Matthews isn't there creating chaos, name another good pass rusher among the linebacker unit? Hell, name just a half way decent pass rushing LB? Did Chad Henne get his jersey dirty at all Sunday except for on a scramble or two? While Henne was taking a nap before deciding who to throw to, Rodgers was getting battered and chased nearly all game long. It's a lot easier to pick up 3rd downs when the quarterback can go through all his progressions three or four times in a perfect pocket before deciding where to throw the ball. McNabb went from completing 35 percent of his passes to 60 plus percent after Matthews went out and the pass rush completely vanished. In the Lions game they held the ball for almost 38 minutes, no coincidence to me that was also the one game that Matthews was largely neutralized.

From my perspective watching the Packers defense this season, one factor by far has dictated whether they get stops, force turnovers, and can avoid opposing offenses from controlling the ball a long time and it has very little to do with being fresh. It's been Clay Matthews playing at a defensive player of the year level and thus the whole defense benefiting from him, especially the pass rush. NFL defenses that can't pressure the QB will almost always struggle to consistently get off the field and this Packers defense simply can't get anything close to consistent pressure on the QB without Matthews creating havoc, fresh or tired because Jenkins is the only other fairly reliable pass rusher on the roster. Without Clay, just double Jenkins and our pass rush is toast because Jones, Zombo, and/or Poppinga aren't scaring any offensive play callers. They were feeble Sunday. Miami just doubled Jenkins and sometimes Raji on pass plays, there went the pass rush as Jones, Zombo, and Poppinga (before getting hurt) flailed around.

Clay Matthews being healthy and effective is the only shot the defense has for getting stops much easier, regardless if they are nice and fresh.

BTW, i'm certainly not trying to defend how badly the offense has underachieved, i believe they are 5-26 on 3rd down the last two games. Pathetic.

[paulpressey25]

Can we switch gears and talk about a subject we all agree on? The Punter.

Crap that guy is awful. You just knew those kicks Sunday were going to be zero hang time shorties that would go right to the return man.

I never quite understand why GM's aren't cycling new punters in all the time when you hit a situation like this. It seems like you simply need to use trial and error to burn through three or four guys and then you hit on decent one.