2011 Tank talk - Raps 3rd! - Games remaining update Pg. 94

[Double Helix]

The purpose of this thread is to give a designated place for "tankers" to discuss issues relating to losing in order to gain a better draft position in this year's draft. If you're hoping that the Raptors win as many games as possible and perhaps squeak into the playoffs then this isn't the thread for you. If you came into this thread looking to troll pro-tankers or insult them for wanting to get a high lottery pick you may be given a warning.

We're very early into the season and we're already seeing a ton of tank talk and lottery positioning speculation threads. This discussion topic has become incredibly divisive amongst the Raptors community (homers vs tankers) and it's lead to some flame wars back and forth. It's for this reason that we're making an official designated area for all pro-tank talk.

This thread is for you if:

- You're hoping for losses and rooting them on.
- You believe being one of the top 5 worst teams in the NBA this season will be good for the organization long-term.
- You'd like to talk about the bottom of the standings and theorize who will fall where and who will be competing for the best players in the draft.
- You think any transaction that makes us better this year is a mistake and you'd like to talk about transactions that were recently made (including the TPE if it's used) after the intial trade talk threads start to die down.

New thread topics that deal with similar subject matter will be merged into this thread. Also, if ever you want to find this thread a link to it will be placed in the Raptors Forum Directory.

Thank you,
The Mod Team

TANK ANALYSIS TOOLS - Updated January 25, 2011

Overall standings.
http://espn.go.com/nba/standings/_/group/1

A look at the upcoming schedules of the teams currently worse than the Raptors.

Sacramento:
http://www.nba.com/fantasy/team_sched_a ... team=kings

Minnesota:
http://www.nba.com/fantasy/team_sched_a ... mberwolves

Cleveland:
http://www.nba.com/fantasy/team_sched_a ... =cavaliers

Washington:
http://www.nba.com/fantasy/team_sched_a ... am=wizards

New Jersey:
http://www.nba.com/fantasy/team_sched_a ... ?team=nets

Los Angeles:
http://www.nba.com/fantasy/team_sched_a ... m=clippers

Detroit:
http://www.nba.com/fantasy/team_sched_a ... am=pistons

UPDATE - 2011 NBA draft lottery simulator. Thanks to Rhett for this one.
http://espn.go.com/nba/lottery2011/mockdraft

[Double Helix]

Here's another thread that was recently created to discuss tanking strategy and the benefits of it. Please continue that conversation in this thread so that others can see the purpose of this thread in the OP.

Raps need to tank... Seriously

[rapz**7**]

I'm on the fence about tanking. I wan't us to get a good draft pick next year however every game i'm hoping for a win. However it works out because when we do lose I don't feel too bad and when we win I feel good. Soooo tanking ftw!!

[Kevin Willis]

We're 4 games in.

If you're talking about fish tanking - I prefer Oscars and Arowannas due to their aggressiveness. Cichlids are nice. Piranhas' have no real beauty.

In terms of position - Arowannas like it on top. Oscars and Piranhas are mid. Not sure of any aggressive fishes on the bottom except one that looks like a snake. Can't remember it's name though.

[pspot]

Im hoping for more close games where the Raps compete show signs of potential (like Sac) but ultimately come short due to inexperience

[Double Helix]

Again, I want to remind you all that the purpose of this thread is to give some pro-tank people a place to talk about tanking without it becoming a heated debate. If you come into this thread looking to troll pro-tankers or insult them for wanting to get a high lottery pick you may be given a warning. The thread title clearly states this is a pro-tanking thread specifically designed for the purpose of discussing the impact the top lottery picks might have on the Toronto Raptors long-term, as well as other bottom feeders around the NBA during the 2011 season. If you don't want to read discussion of this nature do not enter this thread.

Remember, 90 percent of this board will be about the daily activities of the 2011 Toronto Raptors and their quest to win games... not lose them so one thread devoted to tanking, losing games, bottom of the standings chatter and the top 3-5 prospects of next year's draft isn't so bad.

[Double Helix]

Here's some videos to justify tank talk:

Harrison Barnes mix
Kyrie Irving mix

Who will those guys be playing for when they first enter the NBA? Will we have one of them? With one of those two guys on the Raptors, how does our core suddenly look?

Who will be the worst 5 teams this year?

[fredericklove]

I'd rather tank but If we tank and end up with 25 wins that still won't guarantee us 100% top 3 drafts, last couple years some teams with 20+ wins end up as bottom 5 teams but end up drafting 5th or 6th so that's really piggy ugly. If we don't get top 3 this upcoming lottery draft then chances of getting Barnes or Irving are slim.

[Live Free]

Most if not all of BC's success came from drafts and fa's. He hasn't hit a home run in a trade that's franchise changing. So tank away, as a fan I just wanna see DeRozan, Bargs, Davis, Weems develop and hopefully by next June we can throw in a top rookie in the mix

[MrBojangelz71]

[wanker]

[CRACKSMATIC]

i dont think we should start tanking this early. but im deffinitly not against shipping out veterans like Evans or Calderon to get our young guns more minutes

[Truthrising]

I was against the tank but have recently changed my mind, As a team we will never go forward until we pickup a game changing PG. I doubt we will ever pick one up via trade or free agency so our best best bet is through draft - We need Kyrie Irving and it would be in Irving's best interest if he we're to come here as well!

[sanity]

Its a double edged sword. Tanking discourages respect from the better players in the league who you'll want later on, but it may also provide a piece who could singlehandily put the team in a much better position for a consistent # of years.

I'm not for tanking because I think its an uncontrollable thing. If the team sucks, it'll suck. Thats pretty much where we're at. I think in any case ownership wants to sell tickets and make $ and winning solidifies that.

Colangelo must be smarter about the contracts he gives out as well as the long term plan he has in mind. Aside from Bargnani and possibly DeRozan, not a single player stands out as a long term cog to this team. Its even somewhat debatable that for the right price any player on this roster could be had--but thats the case when you don't have a star player.

[wanker]

I was against the tank but have recently changed my mind, As a team we will never go forward until we pickup a game changing PG. I doubt we will ever pick one up via trade or free agency so our best best bet is through draft - We need Kyrie Irving and it would be in Irving's best interest if he we're to come here as well!

While I would be happy with Irving, I would prefer to draft a wing (Barnes or Perry Jones--or, if picking later, Terrence Jones) and pick up a point guard later in the draft. But I don't see us picking in the top 3. While we are certainly a horrendous team, I don't see us finishing worse than 25th in the league. Colangelo really needs to pick up another (mid) first-round pick. Brandon Knight should be available around 13-15. Also, Josh Shelby, while not an ideal point guard, will likely be available very late in the first round.

[Ponchos]

I have a few questions about Kyrie Irving (a lot of people on this board seem super high on him).

I watched a few of his youtube clips and here is what I could gather:

- a decent passer that doesn't have incredible vision.
- a very good athlete, but not elite (not Wall/Rose level)
- good hops
- not especially tall.
- his body looks smaller than Rose/Wall in their freshman years.
- good finisher around the rim.
- decent shooter.
- good but not incredible handles.

Looks to be at the very least a solid player, but I do not see a can't miss prospect yet. What am I missing?

[MrBojangelz71]

I have a few questions about Kyrie Irving (a lot of people on this board seem super high on him).

I watched a few of his youtube clips and here is what I could gather:

- a decent passer that doesn't have incredible vision.
- a very good athlete, but not elite (not Wall/Rose level)
- good hops
- not especially tall.
- his body looks smaller than Rose/Wall in their freshman years.
- good finisher around the rim.
- decent shooter.
- good but not incredible handles.

Looks to be at the very least a solid player, but I do not see a can't miss prospect yet. What am I missing?

I agree with everything except his handles. They are pretty tight.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Here's some videos to justify tank talk:

Harrison Barnes mix
Kyrie Irving mix

Who will those guys be playing for when they first enter the NBA? Will we have one of them? With one of those two guys on the Raptors, how does our core suddenly look?

Who will be the worst 5 teams this year?

Good questions.

First, I'd like to see Irving & Barnes play before I jump to any conclusions. But, with the way people talk about them, I'd be disappointed if we don't make the playoffs the following year with one of them in the fold. DeRozan will be in his 3rd yr. Bargnani will be entering his 6th yr. Ed Davis, if gets enough PT in his rookie season, will be in his 2nd yr legitimately.

With the signs DeMar is showing, and with the continued 'evolution' (to coin BC's catch phrase) of Andrea, all we need is a guy who can make plays for us, and breakdown defences. You draft anybody with that ability, and we're set for the forseeable future, in my opinion. I'm not trying to overrate the talent we currently possess, but the potential some of these guys are showing is evident.

[lucky777s]

Well, its early in the year but true tankers have to be worried about the quick start that DET and PHI have made in the East and the always dangerous Wolves and Clips out West.

These teams are capable of losing in bunches and dont' seem to have the pride or leadership on the court to muster up that late season win streak to derail their efforts to get the #1 pick.

Our Raptors are doing a fine job so far of finding new ways to lose while showing individual progress and keeping the games entertaining, but you have to be worried that TPE burning a hole in Colonjello's pocket could be used to produce some crippling late season wins that allow teams to slide down past us in the standings. Or that Jack and Jose get their games on track and steal a few close games that could have been more losses in the bank.

The tension and drama will be building all season long and the line between 20 and 30 wins in the East is very thin. Right now the tank is on pace for 20 wins but if teams take us too lightly we could see some unexpected and unwelcome wins that will shake our confidence. Fortunately we have a foundation of horrible defense in place that should keep our downward momentum from stalling.

Those games against the bottom 4-5 teams will be critical. We need to force some wins on their record.

[Double Helix]

I think the word tanking implies deliberately throwing games. I think pro-tankers mostly just don't want short-term fixes (guys like Jermaine O'neal for example) to help us win a little more in the regular season while still falling short of our long-term goals.

I think most pro-tankers just want to see the young guys played more and not take on any short-term borderline star contracts. That's what I'd consider a proper "losing now to to put yourself in a better situation to win later" strategy.

Nobody really expects management to do anything to deliberately lose games but pro-tankers also don't want management becoming blinded by treadmill dollars either.