Harden, the under-the-radar bust

[Cruel_Ruin]

SMH at you. Do you even read before you post?

Do you? You have got to be on crack to think Westbrook > Evans.

Westbrook > Evans

Biggest difference:

Westbrook - 47 FT's attempted - 94% shooting
Evans - 27 FT's attempted - 70% shooting

Westbrook has shot the most FT's in the league so far
Westbrook is the best rebounding PG in the league. For people who say it's kidd:

Westbrook - 11% TRB%
Kidd - 8 TRB%

Hooray for small sample sizes

[ALL HAIL]

The guy he plays behind is the team's defensive stopper ...

Sefolosha is a staple on that team. Harden won't ever consistently play in the fourth quarter of games until his offense is somehow better than Sefolosha's defense.

Considering how good of a defensive player Sefolosha is; Harden's best chance of sticking on this team, past this rookie deal he's on, is to play his game well enough to garner all the backup SG minutes and all the backup SF minutes as well (moving Thabo to SF).

[BasketCase1]

Since when are we casting judgment on a player who just started their second year in the league? Especially one who is ONLY 21??? For you young bucks out there, many players in this leagues history didn't become very good or great until after a few years in the league. Sure, there are many who became very good right off the bat, but you need to give a player atleast 3-4 years before casting judgement, especially one who just came into this league at 20 years of age. Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Jermaine o Neal, Dan Majerle and COUNTLESS others, are players who didn't really play to well there first few seasons in the league but they all became very good players eventually. Give the kid some time, imo from what I have seen from him, he'll be alright. And even if he becomes a roleplayer, he'll be fine so as long as he produces for his team in one way or another. This "bust" word is not only overused, but is also not used correctly.

[melo mvp 15]

He's definitely not a bust, but he's under-performing. I think he's actually a bad fit in OKC unless they trade Green for a more traditional big b/c as of right now it'll be hard for him to get the ball b/w OKC's big 3. I think he'd be perfect for Chicago though. Idk if OKC would do this but.. Gibson, Asik and first for Harden? Idk if that's good for either team tho.

[GswSucks4Ever]

He's a bust solely because the three guards that were drafted immediately after him, are all looking to have more promising careers. It's all relative.

[Blame Rasho]

You know the guy who is under the radar for bust as a 2nd pick is Marvin Williams if we are going to play the under the radar game but I don't think Harden is a bust, he just has not found his niche.

[GswSucks4Ever]

Since when are we casting judgment on a player who just started their second year in the league? Especially one who is ONLY 21??? For you young bucks out there, many players in this leagues history didn't become very good or great until after a few years in the league. Sure, there are many who became very good right off the bat, but you need to give a player atleast 3-4 years before casting judgement, especially one who just came into this league at 20 years of age. Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Jermaine o Neal, Dan Majerle and COUNTLESS others, are players who didn't really play to well there first few seasons in the league but they all became very good players eventually. Give the kid some time, imo from what I have seen from him, he'll be alright. And even if he becomes a roleplayer, he'll be fine so as long as he produces for his team in one way or another. This "bust" word is not only overused, but is also not used correctly.

And the team that drafts those players, rarely receive the benefits.

[GswSucks4Ever]

You know the guy who is under the radar for bust as a 2nd pick is Marvin Williams if we are going to play the under the radar game but I don't think Harden is a bust, he just has not found his niche

Definately, Paul and Williams both filled needs. And Paul was the consensus BPA at that spot anyways.

[BasketCase1]

Since when are we casting judgment on a player who just started their second year in the league? Especially one who is ONLY 21??? For you young bucks out there, many players in this leagues history didn't become very good or great until after a few years in the league. Sure, there are many who became very good right off the bat, but you need to give a player atleast 3-4 years before casting judgement, especially one who just came into this league at 20 years of age. Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Jermaine o Neal, Dan Majerle and COUNTLESS others, are players who didn't really play to well there first few seasons in the league but they all became very good players eventually. Give the kid some time, imo from what I have seen from him, he'll be alright. And even if he becomes a roleplayer, he'll be fine so as long as he produces for his team in one way or another. This "bust" word is not only overused, but is also not used correctly.

And the team that drafts those players, rarely receive the benefits.

That's true in some cases, but that's a whole other topic, isn't it?

[Winsome Gerbil]

Marvin Williams was a huge mistake, but the comparison is muted a bit by playing different positions.

That's the thing with Harden, he was not just drafted ahead of better guys, he was drafted ahead of better guys that can mostly play his position. I share the doubts about whether Evans/Westbrook work as a backcourt, but don't you have to take that chance given the incredible star/superstar power OKC would then have? Curry is of course undersized at the SG and defense would be an issue, but even if he was brought off the bench as an explosive 6th man combo guard, its very hard to make the argument that you'd be better off with a full sized mediocrity.

It was an important draft for OKC. Basically the last time for many years they will have a high lottery pick, their last chance to pick up another elite talent/star level player, and they simply missed.

[borisadmin]

Marvin Williams was a huge mistake, but the comparison is muted a bit by playing different positions.

That's the thing with Harden, he was not just drafted ahead of better guys, he was drafted ahead of better guys that can mostly play his position. I share the doubts about whether Evans/Westbrook work as a backcourt, but don't you have to take that chance given the incredible star/superstar power OKC would then have? Curry is of course undersized at the SG and defense would be an issue, but even if he was brought off the bench as an explosive 6th man combo guard, its very hard to make the argument that you'd be better off with a full sized mediocrity.

It was an important draft for OKC. Basically the last time for many years they will have a high lottery pick, their last chance to pick up another elite talent/star level player, and they simply missed.

So many layers of wrong here, isn't anyone reading slick's posts or watching his game, or do people just read boxscores? In the second half of the year he was a rookie shooting the a** out of the ball, defending pretty well and not turning the ball over, while backing up an elite defender on a defensive-minded team. His athleticism is fine, he's still learning to get his inside game going in the NBA but I don't see anything that says it won't happen.

OKC already has a number one option in Durant, and a ball-dominant point guard in Westbrook who OKC are committed to. Why are they going to add someone like Evans who needs the ball in his hands to score? Evans is undoubtedly great, but he often looks lost without the ball and he can't spot up off a Westbrook drive. I can see the appeal of Curry, but frankly he had more question marks coming in, and I can see why they went with Harden as a better defender, and I think Harden's career might ultimately be as good.

His rookie stats compare with a lot of great two guards in the league, I see a shade-under-Ginobli type career for him, and that is far from a bust at the number 3. (OKC's balance with Green/Thabo long term is another thing entirely).

[slick_watts]

It was an important draft for OKC. Basically the last time for many years they will have a high lottery pick, their last chance to pick up another elite talent/star level player, and they simply missed.

It is far too early to make this determination. There are many examples of SG's James Harden's age who had underwhelming first seasons who went on to develop into highly productive players.

[Dr Positivity]

So I guess Harden being such an awful finisher for over a year is because he's not getting enough minutes? When he lumbers through the lane and bricks runners and layups over and over, is it because he wishes he was starting for the Kings?

Yep. Not to mention Harden has played a lot of minutes without Westbrook and has never looked like more than a role player there either. He's not athletic enough.

[slick_watts]

So I guess Harden being such an awful finisher for over a year is because he's not getting enough minutes? When he lumbers through the lane and bricks runners and layups over and over, is it because he wishes he was starting for the Kings?

Yep. Not to mention Harden has played a lot of minutes without Westbrook and has never looked like more than a role player there either. He's not athletic enough.

Just because he's a poor finisher in his rookie year doesn't mean he won't be a good player. He probably will not be a number one option for a contending team, but it's not like the Thunder need him to be that type of player.

[Winsome Gerbil]

His rookie stats compare with a lot of great two guards in the league, I see a shade-under-Ginobli type career for him, and that is far from a bust at the number 3. (OKC's balance with Green/Thabo long term is another thing entirely).

You see a what??

Yes, if Harden = poor man's Manu then this thread is silly. But come on now.

Harden is better than he's shown so far this season, and the sample size is absurdly small, but when these are your three options:

36.4min 22.6pts (.489 .400 .704) 5.4reb 5.0ast 1.8stl 0.2blk 3.2TO
33.0min 20.3pts (.548 .385 .833) 1.7reb 7.7ast 1.3stl 0.3blk 4.0TO
22.4min 4.6pts (.250 .091 .727) 2.2reb 0.8ast 0.8stl 0.2blk 1.2TO

Even if I used last years numbers for option #3 (9.9pts (.403 .375 .808) 3.2reb 1.8ast 1.0stl 0.3blk 1.4TO) if you have option #3, and drafted him #3, ahead of options #1 and #2, this is a legitimate discussion. It could even be a critical moment for the OKC franchise. How many titles does Detroit win if it drafts Melo or Wade or Bosh instead of Darko? Where is Portland now if Oden has been healthy all 4 years? Its rare for a good team to have an opportunity like this, to maybe go from good to great with a top pick, and to miss on it...

[slick_watts]

His rookie stats compare with a lot of great two guards in the league, I see a shade-under-Ginobli type career for him, and that is far from a bust at the number 3. (OKC's balance with Green/Thabo long term is another thing entirely).

You see a what??

Yes, if Harden = poor man's Manu then this thread is silly. But come on now.

Harden is better than he's shown so far this season, and the sample size is absurdly small, but when these are your three options:

36.4min 22.6pts (.489 .400 .704) 5.4reb 5.0ast 1.8stl 0.2blk 3.2TO
33.0min 20.3pts (.548 .385 .833) 1.7reb 7.7ast 1.3stl 0.3blk 4.0TO
22.4min 4.6pts (.250 .091 .727) 2.2reb 0.8ast 0.8stl 0.2blk 1.2TO

And you have option #3, and drafted him #3, ahead of options #1 and #2, this is a legitimate discussion. It could even be a critical moment for the OKC franchise. How many titles does Detroit win if it drafts Melo or Wade or Bosh instead of Darko? Where is Portland now if Oden has been healthy all 4 years? Its rare for a good team to have an opportunity like this, to maybe go from good to great with a top pick, and to miss on it...

It's not a legitimate discussion with respect to Evans. That was a non-starter, there was no way the Thunder were going to draft him and his skill set. It would not have made sense. Not many people thought he'd be as effective as he has been.

Stephen Curry, there is some merit to this discussion. But even then, there were legitimate basketball reasons not to select him.

Anyway, it's very silly to make these comparisons after five games in James Harden's second season. His first year was spent contributing to a winning team, and most of it was learning how to play defense, not learning how to be a primary scoring option. This is not a legitimate discussion at this time because Harden (and Curry / Evans for that matter) are not finished products - not even close.

Perhaps if James Harden finishes the year with a similar line that he had last season, showing little if any improvement, then OKC may have screwed the pooch and blew a nice opportunity to acquire a cheap player with more impact.

James Harden post All-Star break: 15.9 P/36, 5.1 R/36, 2 A/36 on 59.5% TS + some great defensive stretches. Basically doing what everyone wanted him to do except maybe get some more assists. Considering the trouble the entire Thunder roster save Westbrook and Ibaka have had to start this season, I'd base my judgment on Harden more on how he ended last year than how he's started this one. He's on the right path.

[Rapcity_11]

You know the guy who is under the radar for bust as a 2nd pick is Marvin Williams if we are going to play the under the radar game but I don't think Harden is a bust, he just has not found his niche

Definately, Paul and Williams both filled needs. And Paul was the consensus BPA at that spot anyways.

No. Williams was the consensus BPA at the time. However, the Hawks were so desperate for a PG that the pick was stupid.

[Dr Positivity]

So I guess Harden being such an awful finisher for over a year is because he's not getting enough minutes? When he lumbers through the lane and bricks runners and layups over and over, is it because he wishes he was starting for the Kings?

Yep. Not to mention Harden has played a lot of minutes without Westbrook and has never looked like more than a role player there either. He's not athletic enough.

Just because he's a poor finisher in his rookie year doesn't mean he won't be a good player. He probably will not be a number one option for a contending team, but it's not like the Thunder need him to be that type of player.

I think he'll be a valuable starter too. Nothing wrong than a 12-16ppg starter who shoots 3s, passes well, and has the size to play good defense. They're more rare than people make out them to be. When Anthony Parker was good in 2007 and 2008 there's nothing more I would've liked than to have a 22 year old version of him instead of 30. I think OKC has that and he'll help them for the next decade

It won't stop people from bashing the pick though... especially if OKC ends up as "only" a 50-55 W team like Utah and Portland. It just means OKC like those two teams are the closest thing to a contender that isn't - and a couple good moves away

[borisadmin]

You see a what??

Yes, if Harden = poor man's Manu then this thread is silly. But come on now.

I don't see why this is controversial. I never said I think he will be as good, but I think he will be close, with a shade less juice - less of a game changer, more consistent.

Harden rookie season (20yo) 09-10: 22.9min 9.9pts (.403 .375 .808) 3.2reb 1.8ast 1.0stl 0.3blk 1.4TO
Manu rookie season (25yo) 02-03: 20.8min 7.6pts (,438 .345 .737) 2.3reb 2.0ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 1.4TO

Comparable, and with even the standard levels of improvement I can't see how he's going to be anything other than good, or more importantly anything other than what OKC were looking for when they drafted him. Sure, you hit the jackpot when someone exceeds their expected ceiling (Roy), but you also lose when they sink beneath the floor (Foye). Harden is on track, there's no way he can be called a bust in any usual sense of the term.

[THROWBACK_91]

Yeah I think Harden would be a really good player on a bad team. I do think the bulls could use him as well. It just that Harden's traits are not needed in OKC, niether are Evan's or Curry's (to an extent, currys spot up shooting ise useful on any team)