How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS%

[BubbaTee]

This year he has outplayed the opposing point guard every game, as you see here: http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... le/11/2/27

0 of which were against Paul, Deron, or Nash.

Don't get me wrong, I like Rondo's game. I think he's top 5, but not top 3. Rondo might be top 1 for what the Celtics need, but what the Celtics need doesn't determine a player's overall value league-wide.
#1 for the Celtics != #1 for the whole NBA.

Conversely, Rondo's inability to space the floor might leave him outside the top 10 for what the Lakers need, but what the Lakers need also doesn't determine a player's overall value league-wide.
Not top 10 for the Lakers != Not top 10 for the whole NBA

[AWalkerREMIX]

Just like scoring the most points makes someone the best scorer, right?

Assists are circumstantial, a lot depends on the system, the players receiving the ball, off the ball movement. Do you not agree that Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Steve Nash would average at least as many assists if they were handed the same role in the Celtics offense?

And playmaking is more than just assists. It's about running a team, setting up offensive schemes e.g. pick and rolls, co-ordinating the offense. I'm not saying Rondo isn't good at it - clearly he is, but nothing suggests he's better at that than the other guys I keep referring to.

No, I think that because Deron Williams and Chris Paul are better scorers than passers, it would change the offense, giving themselves more offensive opportunities.

[Swimmer]

+1 to GreenDreamer

Isn't it just more amazing that a guy who doesn't shoot that well generates so much offense/gets so many assists?

[GreenDreamer]

PS.

Rondo was not terrible in the USA camp. The team always did well with him on the floor, in all of the games that he played in. Coach K evidently didn't think that he was a good enough shooter, and chose to keep around the players that he though best fit his IDEA of what was best for the team, results be damned. I particularly liked how didn't just swap Rondo out of the starting lineup, but also pulled Chandler at the same time.

Good thing for us that Kevin Durant just shot over people like they weren't even there, because our offense was a complete joke in the knockout rounds. Fumble around for 20 seconds of the shot clock, give it to Kevin and then he hits a fallaway from 20 feet. Great stuff.

[Triple M]

I do not understand the Rondo criticisms especially when you are using his TS% to do it. It has already been mentioned but his TS% the past 2 years has been .540+. When you look at his stats through 11 games you will notice he his finishing at the rim at an all time career low rate and he is shooting an all time low career FT% so I don't expect that to continue through out the year. Additionally he is hitting his jumper at a much better rate then he did last season and it seems he got it back to his 2nd year statistically at least but he is much better in shooting off the dribble or pulling up compared to set jumpshots back in 08.

As for the argument if Rondo was on team Y he would be a so and so type of player. I'm just wondering why assumes his development would forced to be completely different than the career path he has taken so far. Who is to say if he was on a team like Minny that it wouldn't have forced him to become a better scoring option????

[YFZblu]

Who is to say if he was on a team like Minny that it wouldn't have forced him to become a better scoring option????

Why would you assume that a PG who shoots 46% from the FT line is capable of becoming a better scoring option?

[RealRip32]

Rose has no upside, what you see right now is what you get. Which is a pretty good player, don't get me wrong. But nothing about his game is going to significantly change at this point.

it's like the first time i disagree with what you said.
rose has room to improve in outside shooting and expecially in drawing FT.
now,if you meant that rose will never have an elite court vision i agree with that.
but he can be a much better scorer if his 3pt shooting become consistent and he increase the numbers of FT attempt.considering he's already over 20ppg at this point,with this improvements he could be an elite scorer.

besides that,rondo is a great player and he is for sure a top 5 pg in the league,maybe top 3

[Gus McCrae]

Rondo is the best pg in the league for a team like the C's and I agree with the poster who said the only PG Ainge would consider trading him for his CP3 (though I'd add Deron because he can stretch the floor more).

He has his faults, but his strengths are through the roof. Honestly, he's been put in a system that maximizes his strenghts and played in a fashion to maximize his teammates strengths and that's all that can be asked of him. He'll never be considered ahead of Deron or CP3 (and I don't think he's better than them anyways) because he's never going to carry the offensive load with a team like the current celtics team.

Eventually though, Rondo will become the leader of some team, possibly the Celtic post-big 3 and we will truly see what he is capable of. He could end up being like Amare right now without Nash. He could end up being better than he is now. We won't know until we see him in that situation.

[Kayjay]

Generally, if you're averaging more points than assists and they're both well above the league average, you can pretty much forget about scoring efficiency.

[GreenDreamer]

+1 to GreenDreamer

Isn't it just more amazing that a guy who doesn't shoot that well generates so much offense/gets so many assists?

What sets it up more than anything is his ridiculous BBIQ. He's probably the smartest player in the league, and is at least in the top 5. Celtics fans increasingly say, as they understand him better, that he is "playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers." The tricks that kid has up his sleeve and his intricate knowledge of the game is really amazing to watch on a nightly basis.

I was watching them play the Wizards last night, and he pulled a trick which he frequently uses to get guys shots. Rondo dribbles the ball up the court, and stops at the three point line. Hinrich is backed off of him, and I think it was Arenas on Ray Allen. Rondo looks under the basket, and looks to be passing to a cutter going baseline and snaps the ball over his head to make a pass. As he starts to deliver the ball to the baseline, Arenas turns away from Ray and takes a couple of steps towards the basket to give help...... Except that there is no one there. Rondo then flips the ball to Ray for an open three. Splash. Pure chicanery, and he does it in such a convincing way that the guy will fall for it more often than not. He didn't need some great dribble drive into the paint to get Ray the look, he just used his mind. Rondo is constantly working some angle on the floor. His powers of deception out there are unbelievable. hell, he even gets me looking the wrong way at times, even though I know his wily ways.

It doesn't stop there, either, because he is a communicator of the first order. Just watch him during breaks in the action. If he isn't talking to Doc, he's passing info to teammates, or is working a ref. Rondo is ALWAYS doing SOMETHING out there. He's sneaky. He cheats. He's tough. He's opportunistic. He's clutch. He's bossy. He's meanspirited. He reminds me so much of Bird. In fact, no other player has come closer to being like Larry, between the ears, than Rondo has, IMO.

[Slax]

I think people who are suggesting that Paul, Williams, Nash, Westbrook, or Rose would average "at least that many assists" if they were on the Celtics needs to take a step back and think about it for a second. Who has actually done that in NBA history? Not Magic Johnson. Not John Stockton. Not Isiah Thomas. Not Oscar Robertson. Not Bob Cousy. Never in the 60-year history of the NBA has any player averaged that many assists per game for a full season. Rondo's assists per game are almost certainly going to come down over the course of the season. Anyone who believes that a different point guard would be getting more is delusional.

Which has nothing to do with who's better than whom. Just, don't go around talking about 15 APG as if it's just about having the right teammates. If it was, then someone would have done it by now.

[Triple M]

Who is to say if he was on a team like Minny that it wouldn't have forced him to become a better scoring option????

Why would you assume that a PG who shoots 46% from the FT line is capable of becoming a better scoring option?

His career trajectory would be completely different if he was on Minny instead of being a Celtic. Also why do people forget that there is evidence of him stepping up and being a capable scorer when one or more of the big 3 have been out. That evidence is infinite compared to the evidence that his doubters use to downgrade his scoring ability.

[rocopc]

That's right. Rondo is the least efficient starting PG in the NBA.

I am sitting here thinking, why the hell do people think that he's a top 3 PG in the NBA? Hell, some people are saying that he's the best PG in the NBA.

Yes, he gets a lot of assists and he's great at that. I am not denying it. With as many finishers and ELITE shooters as Boston, Rondo is absolutely a good fit for Boston. Pierce, KG, Allen are all getting slower but they are still some of the best shooters at their positions and will go great with anyone who is good at penetrating.

It's not like Rondo and the Celtics are invincible. They are very beatable and they often lose BECAUSE of Rondo.

For those who think that he's a top 3 PG in the NBA or even the best, do you honestly think that Chris Paul wouldn't be able to do the same in Boston? If CP3 was playing in Boston, Boston would completely destroy the league. Or Deron? Westbrook? Nash? Harris? Nelson? Hell, I even think Devin Harris would be better for the Celtics.

Rondo is a system player. He's blessed by elite shooters in Allen, Pierce, and KG. Not many PGs get those kinds of options on the wing to pass to.

Let's not forget that Rondo was terrible in the USA camp. I was worried that he would make the team because I knew he'd stink it up in the international game where shooting is a must. He would have hurt team USA.

Rondo is a top 10 PG in the NBA. He's not top 3, not top 5. He certainly isn't anywhere near the best. If he's the best PG in the NBA, this "golden age" for PGs is sad.

Devin Harris would be better for the Celtics. You mean the same Devin Harris who was notoriously benched for the second half of a game because Rondo so thoroughly destroyed him in the first half? That guy? Uhhh, I think that the Celts would pass on that. Little Jameer too.

The problem with OP's like this one is that some people, though they like watching the game of basketball, just don't have a particularly good grasp of it. Take the argument forwarded here. Rondo is supposedly so lucky to be able to play with these wonderful guys. Is Patterns aware of how those guys looks when Rondo IS NOT out there with them? It usually isn't too pretty.

I've already read through the thread, and we have the standard "He gets to play with 4 Hall of Famers" responses. the fact that 3 of th3 4 ain't what they used to be doesn't seem to matter too much, though. Take Shaq. man, is Rondo ever so lucky to have him around, because the Big Fella's been looking ohh so Hall of Famerish the last 3 or 4 years. Or Garnett, who is assisted on almost 75% of his field goals by Rondo (just in case this is hard to understand, this means that Rondo is generating Garnett's offense for him). How about Ray Allen, who is cleaning up on wide open threes and mid range shots (I'm sure that he's the only player in the league who can hit wide open shots, it is why he is special). Why is he so open? Let's not consider that. The only one of these 4 who still "has it" is Pierce, who Rondo plays with extremely well.

The real problem, though, when people talk about the number of future Hall of Famers in the Celtics starting lineup is that evidently a lot of people can't count.

Is the Celtics team a good fit for Rondo. Yeah, he certainly fits in well there, but there would be even better teams for him. The Magic would be far better, for one, because they could actually keep up with him. Rondo has to slow down for the geriatrics in Beantown. Quite a few others would be just as good. The Hawks being an OBVIOUS choice there. Rondo is a playmaking point guard, and a guy like him needs guys whose buttons he can push to have his greatest impact.

What really sets Rondo apart, though, is that he has consistently shown how overrated one player's scoring is in the general "understanding" of the game. Anyone can score the basketball on any possession for a team. It is all a matter of how good they are at doing that. There are 5 players out there for you at any one time, and if one of those 5 is Rajon Rondo, then the likelihood of success for the group is going to be a lot higher. There is also the "slight" concern of actually defending the other HALF of the possessions in the game. Having Rondo around makes that a whole hell of a lot easier as well. What some people seem to not understand all that well is that the name of the game is to outscore your opponents, and that can just as well be done by stopping them from scoring as the other way around - in fact, the teams which usually go far are the ones who are quite good at doing exactly that.

I could go in depth about how a guy like Steve Nash would be a huge downgrade for teh Celtics, and old team which heavily relies on Rondo's athleticism and endurance (not strengths for Nash), or how the Celts have a defensive mentality and how trading in the best defensive point guard on Planet Earth for a turnstyle would not be a good thing, but I think that is enough.

+1

Great Post Sir!!!

[Triple M]

+1 to GreenDreamer

Isn't it just more amazing that a guy who doesn't shoot that well generates so much offense/gets so many assists?

What sets it up more than anything is his ridiculous BBIQ. He's probably the smartest player in the league, and is at least in the top 5. Celtics fans increasingly say, as they understand him better, that he is "playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers." The tricks that kid has up his sleeve and his intricate knowledge of the game is really amazing to watch on a nightly basis.

I was watching them play the Wizards last night, and he pulled a trick which he frequently uses to get guys shots. Rondo dribbles the ball up the court, and stops at the three point line. Hinrich is backed off of him, and I think it was Arenas on Ray Allen. Rondo looks under the basket, and looks to be passing to a cutter going baseline and snaps the ball over his head to make a pass. As he starts to deliver the ball to the baseline, Arenas turns away from Ray and takes a couple of steps towards the basket to give help...... Except that there is no one there. Rondo then flips the ball to Ray for an open three. Splash. Pure chicanery, and he does it in such a convincing way that the guy will fall for it more often than not. He didn't need some great dribble drive into the paint to get Ray the look, he just used his mind. Rondo is constantly working some angle on the floor. His powers of deception out there are unbelievable. hell, he even gets me looking the wrong way at times, even though I know his wily ways.

It doesn't stop there, either, because he is a communicator of the first order. Just watch him during breaks in the action. If he isn't talking to Doc, he's passing info to teammates, or is working a ref. Rondo is ALWAYS doing SOMETHING out there. He's sneaky. He cheats. He's tough. He's opportunistic. He's clutch. He's bossy. He's meanspirited. He reminds me so much of Bird. In fact, no other player has come closer to being like Larry, between the ears, than Rondo has, IMO.

Rondo's large hands makes it possible for him to do things that very few can do. It is amazing how he can maneuver defenders and set up his team mate for open looks yet his detractors look at these passes as easy passes that any PG can make aka the "Calderon assists".

[Don Draper]

I think people who are suggesting that Paul, Williams, Nash, Westbrook, or Rose would average "at least that many assists" if they were on the Celtics needs to take a step back and think about it for a second. Who has actually done that in NBA history? Not Magic Johnson. Not John Stockton. Not Isiah Thomas. Not Oscar Robertson. Not Bob Cousy. Never in the 60-year history of the NBA has any player averaged that many assists per game for a full season. Rondo's assists per game are almost certainly going to come down over the course of the season. Anyone who believes that a different point guard would be getting more is delusional.

Which has nothing to do with who's better than whom. Just, don't go around talking about 15 APG as if it's just about having the right teammates. If it was, then someone would have done it by now.

Exactly. There is no evidence to suggest anyone can do it. Also people need to look at the type of passes Rondo makes. These aren't hockey assists, these are assists from a player legitimately setting up his teammates.

[GYBE]

That's right. Rondo is the least efficient starting PG in the NBA.

Hilarious. I didn't realize his terrible free throw % on a very low volume is enough to throw out every other contribution he makes.

Also, his TS% (which is a terrible point of data if you're really looking to gauge total offensive efficiency) is way out of line with his career numbers due to a small sample size.

I don't believe 15apg is a big deal.

Now this is the highlight.

The man is on pace to break the NBA record for APG and it's not that big of a deal. This despite the fact that everyone knows he's no offensive threat and should constantly be playing him for the pass.

Now add in the fact that the Celtics play at one of the slowest paces in the league today, depriving him of offensive possessions. Plus the whole league gets less offensive possessions than they did in the 80's with how the game's slowed down. Not surprisingly, most of the top assist seasons were posted by two guys playing in that era.

It's really impressive.

[Gus McCrae]

Is the Celtics team a good fit for Rondo. Yeah, he certainly fits in well there, but there would be even better teams for him. The Magic would be far better, for one, because they could actually keep up with him. Rondo has to slow down for the geriatrics in Beantown. Quite a few others would be just as good. The Hawks being an OBVIOUS choice there. Rondo is a playmaking point guard, and a guy like him needs guys whose buttons he can push to have his greatest impact.

Your post was very well written and I agree with all of it. One question though, the topic of this thead is how can you consider Rondo a top 3 PG with such bad shooting %s. As you said, if you put him on the hawks instead of Bibby or the Magic instead of Jameer Nelson, of course they would be better. The more relevant question would be, what if you put him on the Hornets instead of CP? On the Bulls instead of D-Rose? On the Jazz instead of Deron? On the Suns instead of Nash? Would THOSE teams be better or worse? I can't really say in any of those circumstances those teams would be clearly better? And in some, I think they would be worse.

Again, great post, just playing devil's advocate the one part about putting Rondo on other teams.

[GreenDreamer]

Is the Celtics team a good fit for Rondo. Yeah, he certainly fits in well there, but there would be even better teams for him. The Magic would be far better, for one, because they could actually keep up with him. Rondo has to slow down for the geriatrics in Beantown. Quite a few others would be just as good. The Hawks being an OBVIOUS choice there. Rondo is a playmaking point guard, and a guy like him needs guys whose buttons he can push to have his greatest impact.

Your post was very well written and I agree with all of it. One question though, the topic of this thead is how can you consider Rondo a top 3 PG with such bad shooting %s. As you said, if you put him on the hawks instead of Bibby or the Magic instead of Jameer Nelson, of course they would be better. The more relevant question would be, what if you put him on the Hornets instead of CP? On the Bulls instead of D-Rose? On the Jazz instead of Deron? On the Suns instead of Nash? Would THOSE teams be better or worse? I can't really say in any of those circumstances those teams would be clearly better? And in some, I think they would be worse.

Again, great post, just playing devil's advocate the one part about putting Rondo on other teams.

CP3 is one of the two PGs who I consider to be better than Rondo. The other is Deron. Not a whole ton better, but I have them above him.

The Hornets? Not as good, but still a good team. One of the most misunderstood aspects of Rondo's game is his scoring. He CAN score. Rondo has consistently upped his scoring when needed in the past, and would do so in the future. Ya know, it is actually pretty hard to build up any kind of rhythm getting as few shots a game as he gets, yet you will see that by season's end his efficiency will be solid. He would be able to score more, but losing Paul would be a blow to that team, though Rondo would still make them a tough team to play. One key thing that cannot be forgotten is that the Hornets are building a defensive mentality, and they would lose NOTHING on that end with Rondo replacing Paul.

The Suns? They would be a better team. More explosive and a better defensive team. The Suns have some issues with the bigs situation, but I think that Nash is starting to lose his touch. Rondo would actually be a more effective scorer than Nash in that offense, believe it or not, with all of the smalls running around and the floor stretching bigs that they play. Rondo is an explosive athlete, and there are lanes galore there that Nash isn't able to exploit because he just isn't that fast. Look at how Dragic is able to get to the cup, and factor in that Rondo makes him look like he is running in cement shoes. Rondo is just flat out better than Nash now.

Jazz? Deron's better, but once again the drop off would not be huge. The Jazz aren't short of offensive tools for Rondo to plug in with either.

Bulls? I think that they would be about the same. Maybe better. I think that Rose has definitely improved as a point guard this season, but people really don't understand the gap that separates Rondo from Rose as playmakers, and especially when it comes to RUNNING an offense (they aren't the same thing). Rose isn't exactly hurting for teammates, and Rondo would get that team running like no one's business. The Bull's should be a fastbreak dynamo with their good defense and mobile bigs. Rondo isn't the scorer that Rose is, but you would be surprised, IMO, how much better some of the Bulls would be looking with Rondo playing with them. Still, I'm OK with the idea that Derrick is a better fit there.

[Sothron]

Rondo is shaping up to have a career trajectory like Jason Kidd. He's a terrific defender, amazing court vision and struggles with shooting. Kidd was never as bad a free throw shooter and a much better rebounder but the comparison still stands. Rondo individually isn't going to shoot his team to victory but his all over game absolutely will.

[Gek]

You can make up a stat that would make any player look bad.