How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS%

[TheOGJabroni]

If you want to consider Chris Paul and Deron Williams better point guards, that is fine by me. But when people start talking about Westbrook (who btw I am a huge fan of) just turning the C's into a monster team (as if they aren't already) then its just getting ridiculous.

How does Rondo get discredited for passing to great teammates, yes, but all wellll beyond their prime HOF careers (except maybe Paul) but Westbrook who is averaging nearly only half the assists Rondo is while passing to the league scoring leader, who is known to be non-ball dominant, gets a pass?

Also, Rose is great but he is more of a scoring guard. Not a good or bad thing, but there is nothing anyone can say to argue that he'd be a better fit for the C's, the same way Rondo might not be a better fit for the Bulls.

Nash is also terrific but basketball is made up of offense AND defense.

[SJAXnCRASH]

I'll take a Rondo getting everyone involved 12+ast every game over a Rose scoring 30 and getting 5 dimes. I think their teammates would tell you the same thing

[Alex_De_Large]

Rose, CP3, Deron and Westbrook are all more complete and better than him.

[Doctor MJ]

Rondo is a top 10 PG in the NBA. He's not top 3, not top 5. He certainly isn't anywhere near the best. If he's the best PG in the NBA, this "golden age" for PGs is sad.

Something I want to throw out there. There are 4 factors in determining offensive efficiency: field goal efficiency, rebounding, turnovers, and free throws.

Boston is #1 in the league in eFG%, and below average on all the other factors. Now ignore specifics you know about Boston's players, if I were to tell you there's a team that has those strengths & weaknesses on offense, there is no volume scorer on the team, 7 guys score in double digits on average, and the point guard has both the best +/- on the team (on offense and overall) and plays the most minutes, what conclusion would you reach about who is likely the star of the team?

Now add in that Rondo is by far the most spectacular player on the team and he's on pace to set a record for most APG in history.

In terms of actual value contributed to his club right now, I don't see how Rondo isn't a Top 10 MVP guy. If you want to take issue and say that his team didn't have competent scorers, and hold that against him in the more pure comparison of "best player" I get that, but make no mistake, Boston desperately needs what Rondo brings.

As far as where I rank him among point guards. Well he's clearly below Paul no matter how you look at it, so let's get that out of the way. On offense I'll also clearly rank him below Nash. Other than that, no one clearly ahead of him for me. Can certainly see arguments for Deron, but it's debatable.

Rose's name gets mentioned, but there is really no reason to treat those guys like they have similar strengths, and Boston clearly doesn't have a need for a ball dominant scorer who can't get to the rim.

[bennjuiced34]

I'll take a Rondo getting everyone involved 12+ast every game over a Rose scoring 30 and getting 5 dimes. I think their teammates would tell you the same thing

Do you actually watch the Bulls games or just go off stats? Last night Rose created ample wide open chances for his teammates and no one knocked them down. I still don't know how he had 4 assists because it seemed like whenever he passed to an open man they missed. Without Rose going off again in the 4th we get butt **** on National Television. And without his dominance in the 4th against Houston we probably lose by double digits.

If there's ever such a thing called empty assists then that's what Rondo accumulates. It's okay, when the big 3 start to fall off and he's forced to carry the team you'll see all the Rondo bashers saying "I told you so." Rondo has the most room to operate out of any PG in the league. Teams dare him to shoot and let him go wherever he pleases because he's a liability on offense. Combine his room to operate with his good passing/vision and he's deadly.

It's pretty simple really. Rondo has guys on his team who can finish and he puts them in position to finish. He's a very smart player with good vision, but put him on a team like Chicago, New Orleans or Utah and you'd see that his stats are skewed playing with the amount of weapons he has in Boston.

Also, in order to be considered an elite player a player must at least be a threat to beat you offensively in crunch time. Why then does Paul Pierce/KG/Allen consistently get the rock with the game on the line and Rondo gets the **** out of the way?

[calamity]

Rose, CP3, Deron and Westbrook are all more complete and better than him.

explain how Rose and Westbrook are.

[Slax]

That's all fine and dandy, but to say others like Magic or Oscar haven't done it as if they were limited in their playmaking ability is not being truthful.

I did not intend to imply that Magic and Oscar failed to achieve 15 assists per game because they were limited in their playmaking ability. I consider Rondo achieving 15 assists per game for the first eighth of the season to be anomalous, not something that he will keep up all season, specifically because it is something that has never been done before by the greatest playmakers in the history of the NBA and thus unlikely for anyone to achieve. By contrast, several posters in this thread have made the claim that various point guards in the league today--including players such as Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook (though more frequently people are mentioning Paul and Nash)--would surpass 15 assists per game if they were playing on the Celtics. It seems outrageous to me to just assume that any reasonably good player can beat longstanding NBA records just by having the right teammates.

[bennjuiced34]

Rondo is a top 10 PG in the NBA. He's not top 3, not top 5. He certainly isn't anywhere near the best. If he's the best PG in the NBA, this "golden age" for PGs is sad.

Something I want to throw out there. There are 4 factors in determining offensive efficiency: field goal efficiency, rebounding, turnovers, and free throws.

Boston is #1 in the league in eFG%, and below average on all the other factors. Now ignore specifics you know about Boston's players, if I were to tell you there's a team that has those strengths & weaknesses on offense, there is no volume scorer on the team, 7 guys score in double digits on average, and the point guard has both the best +/- on the team (on offense and overall) and plays the most minutes, what conclusion would you reach about who is likely the star of the team?

Now add in that Rondo is by far the most spectacular player on the team and he's on pace to set a record for most APG in history.

In terms of actual value contributed to his club right now, I don't see how Rondo isn't a Top 10 MVP guy. If you want to take issue and say that his team didn't have competent scorers, and hold that against him in the more pure comparison of "best player" I get that, but make no mistake, Boston desperately needs what Rondo brings.

As far as where I rank him among point guards. Well he's clearly below Paul no matter how you look at it, so let's get that out of the way. On offense I'll also clearly rank him below Nash. Other than that, no one clearly ahead of him for me. Can certainly see arguments for Deron, but it's debatable.

Rose's name gets mentioned, but there is really no reason to treat those guys like they have similar strengths, and Boston clearly doesn't have a need for a ball dominant scorer who can't get to the rim.

I think it's fairly obvious that Rondo thrives in that system because he is what they need. But we're talking about individual players and in that case you take away the system and analyze strengths/weaknesses.

I still hold the belief that in Rondo's case the team makes that player successful more so than the player makes that team successful. Just look at Rondo's numbers before the big 3 got there.

Rondo is the perfect fit for Boston's personnel. He's an unselfish/pass first PG with vision, creativity and a high basketball IQ. He finds his guys in rhythm and runs their sets to perfection.

We can look at box scores all day long and see that Rondo is putting up ridiculous statistics in the assist column, but is he actually creating shots for his teammates or are they knocking down simple passes? I think it's a little bit of both and his numbers wouldn't be near as eye popping if he were on a team where opponents focused on stopping him/closing off the open space he has.

Rose/Williams/Paul/Nash have all been shaded or double teamed in their careers. If you double team Rondo you leave his teammates open who have proven they can kill you. So you pick your poison and let Rondo roam free because when it comes down to it he's much less of an offensive threat as Pierce/Allen/KG.

Rondo needs players around him to be successful. The other elite PG's in this league can dominate games without much offensive help. There en lies the difference between Rondo and Nash/Rose/Westbrook/Paul/Williams/Wall.

[microfib4thewin]

I still hold the belief that in Rondo's case the team makes that player successful more so than the player makes that team successful. Just look at Rondo's numbers before the big 3 got there.

So far Boston is scoring at 113 points per 100 possessions with Rondo on the court and 100 points when he's not. Boston's system helps, but it's more than just making simple passes that make Rondo an effective player. Otherwise the team offense wouldn't struggle this much when Rondo isn't playing.

[calamity]

Rondo's assists are not merely finding an open man nor are they simple. He himself said he has to be very calculating in knowing the exact positioning of the player and the shot getting down. This shows extraordinary court vision that only Nash and maybe CP3 show. It is absolutely ludicrous to think that PGs such as Westbrook, Rose, others could get it done. They just simply don't have that type of court vision. He can get guys like Big Baby, Semih, and former Celtic Tony Allen good looks. Those players are nowhere as good as the starters that other PGs play with. So its not simply just having hall of famer teammates. Quit with it already.

[BadWolf]

but is he actually creating shots for his teammates or are they knocking down simple passes? I

guess you're not watching much rondo, do you?

[mid-post]

If there's ever such a thing called empty assists then that's what Rondo accumulates.

Um...I realize there's a history of animosity between the Bulls and Rondo, but dude...

but is he actually creating shots for his teammates or are they knocking down simple passes? I

guess you're not watching much rondo, do you?

I mean if you get to your spots by beating a defender off the dribble (forcing defenses to adjust/overcompensate) and then find an open teammate, you should obviously get credit for the resulting high- percentage shot.
It's unfortunate that Rose doesn't have the weapons around him that Rondo does, but these guys obviously have very different skillsets and they're two very different kinds of players.
It's pretty dumb how dismissive people are of Rondo's game considering his role and just how well he plays that role.

[beantownski]

1. Paul

2. Willians
3. Nash

4. Rose
5. Westbrook
6. Rondo

this list is horrible, so i figured i'd put up a good one.

1A.paul
1B. dwill
3. rondo

4. nash
5. rose
6. westbrook
7. wall

i don't argue people who want to lower nash. he is a revolving door on d.

[Rinaldi]

because many of those made-up stats are just stats. and stats are just scientific lies.

[Doctor MJ]

Rondo needs players around him to be successful. The other elite PG's in this league can dominate games without much offensive help. There en lies the difference between Rondo and Nash/Rose/Westbrook/Paul/Williams/Wall.

The thing is though is that really the "need players around him" is the knock used against point guards as a whole, and it's completely legit across the board. If your teammates are bad enough, there's no point in passing. Because of Rondo's lack of scoring ability, he is more dependent on the teammates than other point guards, and that's not something to be ignored. However, if you're judging point guards simply based on independence, you're ignoring a key part of what point guards are.

Now, is Rondo racking up 15 APG because he's so much better at passing than the Pauls & Nashes? No I don't think so. He is benefiting there from supporting cast & structure. But he's not getting passing-stats out of nowhere. He is a first class distributor, there aren't that many of those guys, and they are extremely valuable.

[Slax]

I still hold the belief that in Rondo's case the team makes that player successful more so than the player makes that team successful. Just look at Rondo's numbers before the big 3 got there.

In the sense that your stats are going to look different as a rookie starting 25 games on a team featuring Gerald Green, Kevin Pinckney, Kendrick Perkins, Ryan Gomes, Allan Ray, Leon Powe before he got decent, and Sebastian Telfair (you can look this up, this was their entire lineup for a bunch of games near the end of the season when Rondo finally got to start) than you will as a fifth-year player on a team featuring Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O'Neal, Jermaine O'Neal, Glen Davis, Marquise Daniels, Delonte West, and Nate Robinson, I think we are in total agreement.

[BR0D1E86]

Rondo's assists are not merely finding an open man nor are they simple. He himself said he has to be very calculating in knowing the exact positioning of the player and the shot getting down. This shows extraordinary court vision that only Nash and maybe CP3 show. It is absolutely ludicrous to think that PGs such as Westbrook, Rose, others could get it done. They just simply don't have that type of court vision. He can get guys like Big Baby, Semih, and former Celtic Tony Allen good looks. Those players are nowhere as good as the starters that other PGs play with. So its not simply just having hall of famer teammates. Quit with it already.

There’s no doubt that he has some of the better court vision in the league. There’s also no doubt that he gets a lot of easy assists by Ray Allen running around off of screens, getting open and popping an open jumper off of an easy pass.

I don’t see why they can’t both be true.

[droponov]

Rondo's TS% in the last 2 seasons was 54%.

Too small of a sample to assume it won't go back to that level by the end of the season. He's finishing a bit worse at the rim but that will go up; his FT% will also climb. Overall it may go down a bit because he's scoring less -> a bigger % of his shots are bail-out jumpers. But it will closer to 55% than to 48%.

This thread = Beasley thread. Both OPs lack understanding of how small samples can be misleading.

Rondo once started a season shooting 50% on his jumpers after 20 games. It's like this.

[droponov]

Yes, Rondo is a top-3 PG. The 3rd best PG in the league.

Having the Celtics big 3 around him hurts Rondo's reputation because those guys can make plays -> less ball on Rondo's hands -> lesser boxscores.

Rondo was great in the playoffs 2 seasons ago with a relatively mediocre supporting cast around him: All-Star in Pierce, quality starter in Ray Allen, backup in Big Baby, starter but inept offensively Perkins, Scalabrine as the 6th man, Mikki Moore, Marbury's corpse.

Rondo would have a bigger reputation if he had a Chris Paul type of supporting cast. Just guys to finish plays. An offense built around him, a running game, him surrounded by shooters, cutters and athletes. Guys to merely play off him.

Anthony Morrow + Trevor Ariza + LMA + Tyson Chandler = an example of a great supporting cast for Rondo.

The idea that having good shot-creators helps Rondo - in the sense of making him look better than he is - is absurd. Reveals lack of understanding of the game. It's the other way around.

[BR0D1E86]

Rondo's TS% in the last 2 seasons was 54%.

Too small of a sample to assume it won't go back to that level by the end of the season.

By the same token his assists will likely regress to his mean.

I have to say, I seriously hate Rondo. The first reason is because I’m a Bulls fan and he’s clearly a bastard . The second is I’m tired of 18 page threads arguing about him. Yet here I am in a Rondo thread, but I can attribute that to a severe desire to avoid working.