How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS%

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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#161 » by droponov » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:11 pm

BR0D1E86 wrote:
Rondo's TS% in the last 2 seasons was 54%.

Too small of a sample to assume it won't go back to that level by the end of the season.

By the same token his assists will likely regress to his mean.


Yes, I wrote about that just a few days ago when people were talking about Stockton's record.... but they won't regress as much as you may assume because he's dominating the ball more this season.

Again, this is why playing with Pierce+Allen+Garnett never really helped Rondo to put up bigger numbers. He makes a lot more set-up passes than Paul (who mostly does passes that lead to a finishing attempt). Rondo has made lots of passes that lead to a shot-creation attempt. This season, the rest of the team is playing more off of him, he has more responsibilities, meaning his assist % will go up.

As for hating/loving players, it's absurd. Being emotional about basketball players/teams clouds one's judgement too often.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#162 » by BR0D1E86 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:19 pm

Yes, I wrote about that just a few days ago when people were talking about Stockton's record.... but they won't regress as much as you may assume because he's dominating the ball more this season.

Again, this is why playing with Pierce+Allen+Garnett never really helped Rondo to put up bigger numbers. He makes a lot more set-up passes than Paul (who mostly does passes that lead to a finishing attempt). Rondo has made lots of passes that lead to a shot-creation attempt. This season, the rest of the team is playing more off of him, he has more responsibilities, meaning his assist % will go up.

I don’t watch as much of the Celtics as some people, but I don’t see an inordinate amount of iso-ing by the Celtics until you get to the end of the game when they do that play with Pierce at the foul line and the other 4 clearing out. I know that’s not what you said, but I don’t think he’s harmed by having good shot creators around him as much as he’s helped by having guys who catch and shoot at a very high level. I have no idea how to quantify this though.

As for hating/loving players, it's absurd. Being emotional about basketball players/teams clouds one's judgement too often.

:) I will never pretend to have good or impartial opinions.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#163 » by mid-post » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:35 pm

Rinaldi wrote:because many of those made-up stats are just stats. and stats are just scientific lies.

Assists are a crummy stat IMO and they're recorded arbitrarily. Not to mention that the assist is an ex-post facto statistic and is too reliant on the player who receives the ball.
I think (hypothetically) one of the better ways to measure a point-guard's impact in terms of assists is to measure the percentage of passes to a particular player that result in a made shot versus a missed shot. If you multiplied the total assists by the eFG% of those particular shots you'd have a better idea of how good a point guard is, regardless of the pace a team plays at.
So, for instance, player B is delivered the ball by player A 100 times; if player B makes 40 then you multiply 40 by the eFG%. Call this the eAsst% or something gay like that. If you compared Player A's eAsst% with player A's own personal eFG% you'd have a general idea if he's making a good decision hanging onto the ball or passing it off. For someone like DRose, it could explain why he shoots so much as a point guard; in certain cases, passing to his teammates could be detrimental to the team's offense.

Of course, if your teammates aren't very good at shooting or finishing that could be reflected in the statistic, but if you're racking up "empty assists" that could be measured as well. If the shooters' overall eFG% is higher than the eAsst% when they are assisted by player A, the quality of the assist is somewhat diminished. Or if a scrub point guard has a consistently higher eAsst% than the starter with the same exact players, maybe the starter's impact is overstated.
Or, more simply, maybe you just tally up the number of points that result when player A passes to player B, divided by the shots taken by B. That would give you a raw score, points per shot from the assist. For instance, Player B makes 48 assisted shots, but scores 100 points. Those 100 points should show up as some kind of statistic that shows player A's 48 assists accounted for 100 points. (I think a point guard should get some kind of credit for assisting free throws as well btw).

I only say all this stuff because it's a point guard's job to make the right reads of the defense; if you make the right reads consistently, your teammates are going to be making higher percentage shots than if you were making the wrong reads. In the flow of an offense choosing who to pass to and when is just as important as scoring the basketball or taking a high percentage shot.

On top of all that, the way a team is put together (by the GM and the coach) is just as important in all this. DRose would get more assists if he had more capable shooters on his team. But maybe if he had more shooters (different personnel) then the team wouldn't be as good as it is right now, or he'd be playing a different style of ball, scoring less, etc.
You can't measure a lot of this stuff with statistics. Rondo and Rose are both top 5 pg IMO. I think it's disingenuous to put one in "top 5 point guard" company, but not the other.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#164 » by bobbyc » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:47 pm

Monta Ellis > Rajon Rondo
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#165 » by Ayt » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:58 pm

Rinaldi wrote:because many of those made-up stats are just stats. and stats are just scientific lies.


A stat is just information. If a person doesn't know how to interpret it that is their problem. Stats can't lie anymore than my sock can lie.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#166 » by Alex_De_Large » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:03 am

checkit wrote:
Alex_De_Large wrote:Rose, CP3, Deron and Westbrook are all more complete and better than him.

explain how Rose and Westbrook are.


because they shoot better and that makes them more complete.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#167 » by DarkAzcura » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:53 am

The people who are saying Rondo gets a ton of assists off "simple" passes to Ray or Garnett really should check out hoopdata and see how many assists Rondo gets at the rim or within 10 feet of the rim (in comparison to jumpers) before posting in this thread.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#168 » by TAI8 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:55 am

Can't believe this (Please Use More Appropriate Word) thread made it this far...
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#169 » by ahonui06 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:59 am

bobbyc wrote:Monta Ellis > Rajon Rondo


At scoring.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#170 » by Baseline Runner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:40 am

This is a really bad thread. Rondo is neck and neck with Paul as the best PG in the league. He single-handedly dismantled the Cavs last year in the playoffs and now he is doing it to the entire league.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#171 » by Dirty Water » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:55 am

Alex_De_Large wrote:
checkit wrote:
Alex_De_Large wrote:Rose, CP3, Deron and Westbrook are all more complete and better than him.

explain how Rose and Westbrook are.


because they shoot better and that makes them more complete.


You're acting like shooting is 95% of basketball.

Have you ever stepped on a basketball court?
Have you ever played basketball?
Have you ever watched professional basketball?
Have you ever watched Rondo?

He's actually an ok shooter, if you actually watch some of the games (at least so far this year) he has made a good amount of his jumpers. I know he hasn't taken that many 3s this year, but hes shooting 40% out there I believe. If you go to his 82games you'll see his jumper percentage is fine (at least so far) Free throws are another story. I'll give any player the edge over him with that....

However, he's a better passer, ball protector, ball defender, stealer and rebounder than Rose and Westbrook.

Just as quick and has just as good of handles as either of them.

If Rondo didn't have a bunch of future Hall Of Famers and perenial all-stars on his team you'd see his scoring average go up. He's score 20 PPG then all you anti-Rondo people would forget that he doesn't have a jumpshot, and you would jump on the bandwagon cuz lykes he skoRES 20 ppG! omGZ!
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#172 » by Blame Rasho » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:00 am

This thread shows who doesn't appreciate everything that a player brings to the table.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#173 » by RichardsRival3 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:01 am

Dirty Water wrote:You're acting like shooting is 95% of basketball.

Have you ever stepped on a basketball court?
Have you ever played basketball?
Have you ever watched professional basketball?
Have you ever watched Rondo?

He's actually an ok shooter, if you actually watch some of the games (at least so far this year) he has made a good amount of his jumpers. I know he hasn't taken that many 3s this year, but hes shooting 40% out there I believe. If you go to his 82games you'll see his jumper percentage is fine (at least so far) Free throws are another story. I'll give any player the edge over him with that....

However, he's a better passer, ball protector, ball defender, stealer and rebounder than Rose and Westbrook.

Just as quick and has just as good of handles as either of them.

If Rondo didn't have a bunch of future Hall Of Famers and perenial all-stars on his team you'd see his scoring average go up. He's score 20 PPG then all you anti-Rondo people would forget that he doesn't have a jumpshot, and you would jump on the bandwagon cuz lykes he skoRES 20 ppG! omGZ!


You are just assuming he would be able to score 20ppg on decent efficiency. I would bet against that happening. He has a great role on the Celtics that fits his strengths perfectly while minimizing what he does poorly.

When the C's 3 stars retire we will see if Rondo can carry a team offensively.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#174 » by Bomb_First » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:35 am

Baseline Runner wrote:This is a really bad thread. Rondo is neck and neck with Paul as the best PG in the league. He single-handedly dismantled the Cavs last year in the playoffs and now he is doing it to the entire league.


Mo Williams gets burned by everyone. He made Rose look just as good the series before. Replace CP3 with Rondo, and the Hornets might have 2 wins.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#175 » by NYK 455 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:40 am

beantownski wrote:
RoyceDa59 wrote:1. Paul

2. Willians
3. Nash

4. Rose
5. Westbrook
6. Rondo


this list is horrible, so i figured i'd put up a good one.

1A.paul
1B. dwill
3. rondo

4. nash
5. rose
6. westbrook
7. wall

i don't argue people who want to lower nash. he is a revolving door on d.


You talk about a how he has a horrible list....and then you put Rondo a tier ahead of Nash......

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#176 » by Bomb_First » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:47 am

Replace Rondo with Nash, and the Celtics win 70 games if they are healthy. Say what you want about Nash's defense, he has the Celtics defensive frountcourt behind him.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#177 » by IllinoisReppa20 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:47 am

NYK 455 wrote:
beantownski wrote:
RoyceDa59 wrote:1. Paul

2. Willians
3. Nash

4. Rose
5. Westbrook
6. Rondo


this list is horrible, so i figured i'd put up a good one.

1A.paul
1B. dwill
3. rondo

4. nash
5. rose
6. westbrook
7. wall

i don't argue people who want to lower nash. he is a revolving door on d.


You talk about a how he has a horrible list....and then you put Rondo a tier ahead of Nash......

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#178 » by mademan » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:55 am

I cant give rondo respect until he stops being a liability against the Lakers.
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#179 » by CousinOfDeath » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:04 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Patterns wrote:Rondo is a top 10 PG in the NBA. He's not top 3, not top 5. He certainly isn't anywhere near the best. If he's the best PG in the NBA, this "golden age" for PGs is sad.


Something I want to throw out there. There are 4 factors in determining offensive efficiency: field goal efficiency, rebounding, turnovers, and free throws.

Boston is #1 in the league in eFG%, and below average on all the other factors. Now ignore specifics you know about Boston's players, if I were to tell you there's a team that has those strengths & weaknesses on offense, there is no volume scorer on the team, 7 guys score in double digits on average, and the point guard has both the best +/- on the team (on offense and overall) and plays the most minutes, what conclusion would you reach about who is likely the star of the team?

Now add in that Rondo is by far the most spectacular player on the team and he's on pace to set a record for most APG in history.

In terms of actual value contributed to his club right now, I don't see how Rondo isn't a Top 10 MVP guy. If you want to take issue and say that his team didn't have competent scorers, and hold that against him in the more pure comparison of "best player" I get that, but make no mistake, Boston desperately needs what Rondo brings.

As far as where I rank him among point guards. Well he's clearly below Paul no matter how you look at it, so let's get that out of the way. On offense I'll also clearly rank him below Nash. Other than that, no one clearly ahead of him for me. Can certainly see arguments for Deron, but it's debatable.

Rose's name gets mentioned, but there is really no reason to treat those guys like they have similar strengths, and Boston clearly doesn't have a need for a ball dominant scorer who can't get to the rim.


Did you just say that Derrick Rose can't get to the rim?
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Re: How can you be a top 3 PG with a .480 TS% 

Post#180 » by TheDeadDodo » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:08 am

bobbyc wrote:Monta Ellis > Rajon Rondo

Let's leave Ellis out of this, please. He's a combo guard, not a point.

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