Statistically D-Rose is the second best player in the NBA

[alucryts]

Fallacy, shame on you for turning this into a RW / Dr debate

ya +1. he complains about people bringing up rose all the time then tacks on westbrook in every singla argument its kinda ironic how hes turning into the westbrook version of the rose homers he hates.

as for the OP, as far as points+reb+assists sure 2ns best, but it obviously doesnt mean he is the #2 player in the NBA. like someone else said, top 15 sure, top 2 not so sure

[alucryts]

By the way, has anyone thought to mention that Derrick Rose is SECOND TO LAST in the league in inverse points + assists + rebounds? And Danny Green is leading the league at INFINITY?

and i believe danny green is leading at undefined

[fallacy]

Fallacy, shame on you for turning this into a RW / Dr debate

I know, right

[SJAXnCRASH]

[Don Draper]

I love when people reference stats and don't fully grasp their meaning/value. This little Rose/Westbrook discussion makes me want to shoot myself. I was all ready to pull out oRtg and then you went ahead and did it for me....and entirely failed to realize that you just proved yourself wrong.

A 110 oRtg is well above average. Rose IS efficient offensively, just not as insanely efficient as Westbrook. This is coming from someone who is generally anti-Rose just because I hate all the Rondo/Rose debates. To call the stats Rose has put up this year "inefficient" is flat out wrong. In comparison to Westbrook sure, but 90% of the league is inefficient then.

player EFFICIENCY!!!! rating as you like to refer to it really isn't all that much about efficiency. PER is essentially the equivalent of taking oRtg X possessions used + some defensive stats sprinkled in. As you can see, possessions are a key ingredient to that formula, it's why someone like Antoine Walker could post a decent PER despite being incredibly INEFFICIENT. PER is a nice way of comparing players who use about the same number of possessions, other than that, it's wildly over referenced.

+1 his ORtg is above league average.

Also Derrick Rose carries more of a load on offense than Westbrook so the efficiency and production sorta cancel each other out. They are playing similar. I give Rose the edge on offense b/c he is more important to his team's offense, but Westbrook is a better defender

[nonemus]

Ortg is too focused on Team offense for it to be a reliable stat when comparing two individuals offensive impact. DUH.

[Wavy Q]

Well there's individual ORtg and Team ORtg

[eloper]

Ortg is too focused on Team offense for it to be a reliable stat when comparing two individuals offensive impact. DUH.

individual oRtg has nothing to do with team offense (except assists, and to some extent offensive rebounds). Well, I guess you can make the argument that EVERYTHING a player produces has to do with the team's offense.....but yeah.

I love when people reference stats and don't fully grasp their meaning/value. This little Rose/Westbrook discussion makes me want to shoot myself. I was all ready to pull out oRtg and then you went ahead and did it for me....and entirely failed to realize that you just proved yourself wrong.

A 110 oRtg is well above average. Rose IS efficient offensively, just not as insanely efficient as Westbrook. This is coming from someone who is generally anti-Rose just because I hate all the Rondo/Rose debates. To call the stats Rose has put up this year "inefficient" is flat out wrong. In comparison to Westbrook sure, but 90% of the league is inefficient then.

player EFFICIENCY!!!! rating as you like to refer to it really isn't all that much about efficiency. PER is essentially the equivalent of taking oRtg X possessions used + some defensive stats sprinkled in. As you can see, possessions are a key ingredient to that formula, it's why someone like Antoine Walker could post a decent PER despite being incredibly INEFFICIENT. PER is a nice way of comparing players who use about the same number of possessions, other than that, it's wildly over referenced.

+1 his ORtg is above league average.

Also Derrick Rose carries more of a load on offense than Westbrook so the efficiency and production sorta cancel each other out. They are playing similar. I give Rose the edge on offense b/c he is more important to his team's offense, but Westbrook is a better defender

You're right in concept, but in this case not quite....Westbrook has a higher PER with fewer used possessions. He's basically produced as many/more points without having to dominate the ball as much. That's sort of cut and dry when it comes to deciding who's been the more productive offensive player thus far....that isn't to say things won't be different going forward or that situation doesn't have a lot to do with their production (I'm sure Rose being the #1 option and Westbrook having Durant has a big impact), but statistically Westbrook has been more productive offensively thus far

[Slax]

By the way, has anyone thought to mention that Derrick Rose is SECOND TO LAST in the league in inverse points + assists + rebounds? And Danny Green is leading the league at INFINITY?

and i believe danny green is leading at undefined

True. And of course, that just means that Danny Green is playing so well, you can't even put a number to his performance.

[eloper]

I remember how happy I was when Gerald Green (Danny's second cousin by the way!) started off a season with a made three pointer in the first minute of the game....his oRtg and PER was through the roof!

[BJ43]

Clearly, Rose is performing at a level never-before-seen in the NBA.

High FG% = awesome efficiency. Plus he's doing it with no talent around him at all.

I'd have to say that, atm, he's a top 3 NBA player. Behind Pau and Paul.

Rose's PER/TS% - 22.7/ .547
Westbrook's PER/TS% - 26/ .569

When russell is more efficient than you, you're doing it wrong. Rose is FAR from highly efficient

Kind of like you as a poster?

[Don Draper]

I love when people reference stats and don't fully grasp their meaning/value. This little Rose/Westbrook discussion makes me want to shoot myself. I was all ready to pull out oRtg and then you went ahead and did it for me....and entirely failed to realize that you just proved yourself wrong.

A 110 oRtg is well above average. Rose IS efficient offensively, just not as insanely efficient as Westbrook. This is coming from someone who is generally anti-Rose just because I hate all the Rondo/Rose debates. To call the stats Rose has put up this year "inefficient" is flat out wrong. In comparison to Westbrook sure, but 90% of the league is inefficient then.

player EFFICIENCY!!!! rating as you like to refer to it really isn't all that much about efficiency. PER is essentially the equivalent of taking oRtg X possessions used + some defensive stats sprinkled in. As you can see, possessions are a key ingredient to that formula, it's why someone like Antoine Walker could post a decent PER despite being incredibly INEFFICIENT. PER is a nice way of comparing players who use about the same number of possessions, other than that, it's wildly over referenced.

+1 his ORtg is above league average.

Also Derrick Rose carries more of a load on offense than Westbrook so the efficiency and production sorta cancel each other out. They are playing similar. I give Rose the edge on offense b/c he is more important to his team's offense, but Westbrook is a better defender

You're right in concept, but in this case not quite....Westbrook has a higher PER with fewer used possessions. He's basically produced as many/more points without having to dominate the ball as much. That's sort of cut and dry when it comes to deciding who's been the more productive offensive player thus far....that isn't to say things won't be different going forward or that situation doesn't have a lot to do with their production (I'm sure Rose being the #1 option and Westbrook having Durant has a big impact), but statistically Westbrook has been more productive offensively thus far

PER doesn't apply hear b/c I am not talking about defensive efficiency and I don't use PER to evaluate playes, but I think your reasoning is backwards. The more a player uses of his teams possession the less efficient he becomes (I don't think this is debatable). Based on this if your were to decrease Rose's attempts his efficiency should increase (probably to a level similar to Westbrook). You really can't say Westbrook has has been more productive because ... well he hasn't.

[BJ43]

I have two efficiency stats to back me up. These stats are designed to tell you have efficient one player is, hell PER is player EFFICIENCY rating.

Ignoring these stats that are designed for the one thing we are arguing is ignorant

And I have 2 eyes and a brain, and over 20 yrs of following the NBA as well as 25 years of playing basketball, with 10 of them being at a reasonably high level. And all I need to do is watch players play to come to a conclusion on whether they're an efficient player or not

[SJAXnCRASH]

I have two efficiency stats to back me up. These stats are designed to tell you have efficient one player is, hell PER is player EFFICIENCY rating.

Ignoring these stats that are designed for the one thing we are arguing is ignorant

And I have 2 eyes and a brain, and over 20 yrs of following the NBA as well as 25 years of playing basketball, with 10 of them being at a reasonably high level. And all I need to do is watch players play to come to a conclusion on whether they're an efficient player or not

ahh...the fallback of everyone trying to make claims when the facts don't back them up

[Legendary 33]

You want me to tell you why advanced stats aren't the be all end all of rating a players efficiency?
You argued that Rose's 4 TOs per game are a reason for being inefficient. Looking at TO% guess who has a high TO% Rose or Westbrook? Thats right your boy Westbrook does.

By .3%, yes. Westbrook also goes to the line 3.5 time more a game and shoots 92% from the line (16% better)

I can bring out more advanced stats if you really want.

D rose - 110 OffRtg, .8 Offensive Win Shares
Westbrook - 116 OffRtg, 1.4 Offensive Win Shares

Anyways, i have proved all that i need to. If you still believe that Rose is "incredibly effecient" you can. I have proved to you otherwise and any more arguing on my part is redundant and long as you are ignorant to these stats that are here for this reason.

I'm gonna laugh at the end of the season when Westbrook returns to his abysmal efficiency. I"ll love to hear your excuses then.

[IBD]

Clearly, Rose is performing at a level never-before-seen in the NBA.

High FG% = awesome efficiency. Plus he's doing it with no talent around him at all.

I'd have to say that, atm, he's a top 3 NBA player. Behind Pau and Paul.

Rose's PER/TS% - 22.7/ .547
Westbrook's PER/TS% - 26/ .569

When russell is more efficient than you, you're doing it wrong. Rose is FAR from highly efficient

Kind of like you as a poster?

he mad

[Dekadez]

I don't get all the hate. Rose is clearly the best player in the NBA right now, followed closely by Millsap.

If he would play in Prime Jordan his era, on another team, we'd see the biggest rivalry in sports history. In history!!!!

[BJ43]

I have two efficiency stats to back me up. These stats are designed to tell you have efficient one player is, hell PER is player EFFICIENCY rating.

Ignoring these stats that are designed for the one thing we are arguing is ignorant

And I have 2 eyes and a brain, and over 20 yrs of following the NBA as well as 25 years of playing basketball, with 10 of them being at a reasonably high level. And all I need to do is watch players play to come to a conclusion on whether they're an efficient player or not

ahh...the fallback of everyone trying to make claims when the facts don't back them up

Great, I just typed up a 10 minute response and pressed the wrong button and lost it all...unbelievable.

Screw it I'm not re-typing the whole thing. Here's the summarised version (and yes this is summarised, I'd written a lot more, and made better points but I CBF going through that again with examples)

1. I didn't make any claims, so I dont need to back anything up. I never said Rose was a top 2 player and neither did the op, he simply worded the thread poorly (possibly intentionally). He's simply stating that according to a stat on NBA.com Rose ranks 2nd

2. Watching players, and not just every now and then, and not just through the eyes of a regular fan but as someone who will go back and watch a game 2 or 3 times and try to focus on different things, I'll take my judgement on a player over a so called "advanced stat" ...but that doesnt mean you completely ignore stats, they are useful if applied in the correct context. It's like people who want to argue that defense wins championships, or offense wins championships instead of understanding it has to be a combination of both

3. I've seen many games and then gone to look at boxscores out of interest or because the announcers had spent half the game discussing non related subjects and not brought up any stats, and come out scratching my head at how a player finished with a certain stat line. Sometimes I've thought well they didnt seem to have that kind of an impact on the game, for example someone like David Lee, or even Love grabbing 31 rebounds. If you had the game on mute, you wouldnt have guessed he had 31. A lot? Sure but not that many

On other occassions I've seen games in which players have been out there doing everything for their team to win and if you just check the boxscore you get no indication, if anything you'd think why did they get so many mins and they were invisible the whole time. I remember watching a Blazers game and there was no chance in hell they win without Jerome Kersey and Buck Williams, they were just out there doing everything....or so it seemed, but according to the boxscore they had a very mediocre game, or didnt play efficient basketball because they didnt shoot the ball well and had some turnovers, but I'll tell you what, anyone who watched that game understood that those "turnovers" that they were 'credited' with were not their fault, and the shots they missed were often tip in attempts which is a sign of players hitting the offensive glass i.e. good effort

The problem with using stats, is not every play ends up as a stat. Deflections that ends up in a teammates hand wont show on that players statline, playing good defense and forcing someone to alter their shot wont show up, taking a charge wont show up, making the right pass that leads to another easier pass that leads to an easy basket wont show up, drawing defenses out or away from teammates because you're a threat and they choose to double allowing your team to take advantage of a 4 on 3 wont show up...so many things just dont show up, but if you watch the games and understand basketball then you'll be able to make your own decisions

4. I couldn't care less what you think but I wanted to at least type something so you didnt think you were right, although you still probably do

[jowglenn]

Sure.

And statistically, the average person has one testicle and one ovary.

[Patterns]

I don't get all the hate. Rose is clearly the best player in the NBA right now, followed closely by Millsap.

If he would play in Prime Jordan his era, on another team, we'd see the biggest rivalry in sports history. In history!!!!

1. Rose
2.Milsap
3.Beasley