Why Joe and Josh can't work long term...

[azuresou1]

And we should have let Joe walk. Warning, this will be a moderately long post.

Here's how it works when we lose. We start off slow, for one reason or another. Joe Johnson reacts the only way he knows how: by trying to score, because he has few if any leadership characteristics. He is unwilling to lead, to call out teammates for playing poorly on defense or not giving effort or in taking poor shots, and instead simply tries to score our way back into the game. In doing so, all ball movement stops, and we have a barrage of jumpers. If they go in and we catch up, okay, we're out of the clear for now. But when they don't fall?

Josh gets upset, because they're down and because Joe is taking too many bad shots to the detriment of ball movement and the team's offense as a whole. However, Josh, although very demonstrative, seems to be a guy who doesn't like to create conflict, and I have never seen him call out Joe on his shot selection. This could be okay. However, unlike many other secondary stars, he will continue to defer to Joe, and either not look to create his own shots, or be content with shooting long Js himself because it's easier and also lets him feel like a hero if he makes it. IMO it's kind of a passive-aggressive move. In turn, when they fail to fall, this causes Joe to feel like he needs to score even more. Rinse and repeat.

This is greatly in contrast with a guy like Pau, who usually is content with being a second option, but who will absolutely look to create his shot when Kobe begins to start chucking to no avail. Similarly, Tim Duncan is more than happy to have Tony Parker or Manu score the majority of the points, but if they're not getting it done he will demand the ball. Simply put, guys like Pau, Duncan, and Ray Allen are willing to step up and shoulder the burden if their main scorer isn't getting it done, and also to call out their teammates on poor shots.

Long story short, there is no effective leadership on this team. Al Horford has presence and motivates, but hasn't truly taken on the mantle of captain yet. Mike Bibby actually has leadership, but you can only lead so much when you're old and mediocre.

Imagine if instead of Joe Johnson we had Kobe (but slightly worse). He would challenge Josh whenever he was playing stupid. And Josh might get resentful and eventually they'd have an argument, but afterward when the dust cleared, we'd be a better team for it. Or a Duncan, who would be more supportive and probably not be as much of a dick, but would absolutely call out people for a lack of effort.

There is no accountability on this team, including from the coaching staff, and until there is, we'll be a pretender team at best.

[nvc]

Couldn't agree more. I am very disappointed that Drew can't be more on top of things when it comes to accountability. You've described our players very well, and given their shortcomings, we need a strong minded coach to come in, demand respect, and tell the players exactly what their roles are. A good coach wouldn't let Joe kill ball movement when things get tough, and they wouldn't put up with Josh sulking on the court.

[D21]

The only one in this team who have leadership are Bibby and Horford, that's right, so we could think they they have to talk and the other have to hear.
But even if they talk, there is a problem : Bibby is getting old like you said, and Horford is the young guy in the middle, so they may not receive all the respect they should have from other players.

The other players, especially Joe and Josh, or even Crawford should keep in mind that this team started to really win once Bibby and Horford came in. That's for Joe and Josh.
And for Crawford, he should keep in mind that he brings us nowhere we already see.

The two guys who help this team improve the most are Bibby and Horford.
That's also why I would keep Horford, and Bibby. I'd prefer to see him coming from the bench, playing behind a good PG and a good SG not being Joe, but I think it's a mistake to try to trade him for expiring.
Bibby has problem on individual defense, but he knows how to play team defense at least enough to limit the problem and make it lower than what he brings on offense.

If I could, I would trade Joe first, then see if what Josh do.
Another thing that I see since long time, is that Josh looks to me like a still young guy that desperately wants to be the new Nique.
Watching him taking 3s, willing to play SF instead of PF... just makes me see a young player saying "hey, I want to be like Nique !"
Don't know if Nique was the super-hero of Josh in the past, but I see it on his game. Maybe I'm wrong.

Last point, there would certainly be more people to see this team with Josh and a star, than Joe at this contract and not Josh or another star.
If we trade Joe and get a good player, the team can be fun to watch.
If we trade Josh and doesn't get a star, it will be another thing.