Stagnant offense

[JohnVancouver]

Soles - I'm sold. Now, how do we get Hill comfortable coming off the bench?

[YFZblu]

Soles - I'm sold. Now, how do we get Hill comfortable coming off the bench?

It isn't about being comfortable, it's about being physically capable. The issue with Hill coming off the bench is that at his age, he can't play when his body is cold. Outside of convincing him to waste energy on a stationary bike at the start of each game, Hill will not come off the bench. IMO, Dudley just needs more minutes...but Hill still needs to start.

[Moochiefried]

I don't know if Nash can carry this team without Amare like he did last year. Those stats might have been true last year but without the Nash Amare pick and roll I think having Hill on the court takes a lot of the pressure off of Nash. I can understand the Dudley over Hill argument, but with the way Hill has been playing lately vs. the way Dudley has been playing I don't think it will or should happen.

[Frank Lee]

The 'Mooch' screwing the statistical Pooch

Statistics can distort reality.

[rsavaj]

Wait, there's an argument in this thread that Dudley is better than Hill?

Hill is CARRYING US this year. Without him, we'd only have like, 3 wins. How ridiculous.

To quote you from another thread:

Gee, that's some real in-depth, high quality, revolutionary analysis you got there.

The argument is that Dudley brings things that Hill doesn't, not necessarily making him a better overall basketball player, but making him a better fit to play with Nash.

I think our first criteria when we think of a quality basketball player is:
If we were to give him the ball and say, "Go make something happen..." something would happen.

There's definitely a lot of truth to that idea. The offense stalls if you don't have a player who can create. The best teams have a Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, etc. The issue here, though, is that you only need one or two of these players on the court. After that there are diminishing returns. Any given play will typically utilize the creative play-making of only one player. LeBron James and Dwyane Wade, two of the best creators in the game, have not found a way to additively use their abilities when they're on the court together. When you add them together, you get half of each of them: one stands around uselessly while the other has the ball.

Yeah, you have to have one or two great creators, but then you need the players who do everything else. Coaches like Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich are geniuses at finding the balance between their creators and the rest, who sometimes seem like a pack of random misfits. Derek Fisher, a point guard who's not a point guard? Ron Artest, who dribbles like a junior high girl? Dennis Rodman?? Jackson knows that he already has MJ and Pippen, or Kobe and Gasol. He needs players who do the little things. It's more important that he surrounds those guys with scrappers and shooters than with more ball-handlers.

Now to the Suns. The Suns have Steve Nash, possibly the greatest creator of all time. He led teams at both Dallas and Phoenix with a wide mix of players to some of the greatest offensive seasons in history. With or without Dirk, with or without Stat. You need one or two creators on the court: with Nash, you only need one. He creates for everyone else. He needs to be surrounded by players who can scrap, dunk, and hit open threes. He does not need to be surrounded by players who can dribble.

Hill can create but he can't hit open threes.
Dudley can't create but he can hit open threes.

Which do you think should play with Nash?

That was a "basketball" argument for Miklo. Now for another stats argument. I took the per unit adjusted +/- from each unit that played enough minutes together last year to log a score for when Hill and Dudley play with different point guards. I simply added each unit's score together.

Nash-Hill: -25.55 Dragic-Hill: 42.57
Nash-Dudley: 58.71 Dragic-Dudley: 25.44

Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Do they have the stats up for this season? Last season Dudley was phenomenal but he looks so mediocre this season and I'd be interested to see what the stats are.

Anyways, a good video analysis of HIll:
http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/11/25/g ... breakdown/

Ah, found it myself:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=PHX

So far this season Dudley has the 2nd worst adjusted plus minus on our team. Hill is 6th.

[Wannabe MEP]

Ah, found it myself:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=PHX

So far this season Dudley has the 2nd worst adjusted plus minus on our team. Hill is 6th.

1. Too early in the season to mean much. Those numbers have been bouncing like crazy, as expected. Nash was last on the team after a few games. Now he's bounced back up to all-star levels. JRich is currently last on the team.
2. Gentry is obsessed with his starting unit right now. Dudley hasn't gotten many minutes yet, and hardly any at all with Nash, where I believe he's most effective.
3. Four of Dudley's best nine units from last year (all with excellent numbers) didn't include Amare.

[Wannabe MEP]

But if we were to give a lot of weight to this year's stats, we would (clearly) be starting Childress over Hill. Which I'd also advocate. I haven't been making that argument because the case is stronger for Dudley based on last year's data. We just don't know as much about Childress after so few games. But I'd start both Childress and Dudley, or at least play them both a lot more.

(And we'd definitely be starting Warrick)

[YFZblu]

Do they have the stats up for this season? Last season Dudley was phenomenal but he looks so mediocre this season and I'd be interested to see what the stats are.

Anyways, a good video analysis of HIll:
http://valleyofthesuns.com/2010/11/25/g ... breakdown/

Ah, found it myself:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=PHX

So far this season Dudley has the 2nd worst adjusted plus minus on our team. Hill is 6th.

Way too early to tell on Dudley this season. It's a much better idea to take a legitimate amount of time, such as the two years numbers---Dudley currently ranks 16th in the entire NBA in 2 year adjusted plus minus.

To give you an idea of why one shouldn't be awarding much value to adj +/- for this year, Kevin Durant currently features the 2nd lowest adj. +/- in OKC's starting lineup. Adjusted +/- is a great metric because over the long haul, it really gives some nice insight. In the short term though, it isn't very useful because it will fluctuate too much.

[JohnVancouver]

Soles - I'm sold. Now, how do we get Hill comfortable coming off the bench?

It isn't about being comfortable, it's about being physically capable. The issue with Hill coming off the bench is that at his age, he can't play when his body is cold. Outside of convincing him to waste energy on a stationary bike at the start of each game, Hill will not come off the bench. IMO, Dudley just needs more minutes...but Hill still needs to start.

That's what I meant by comfortable - well, I knew what I meant ...

We all saw what happened last time we brough Grant off the bench - so let me rephrase: how do we make it work?

Becuase a second unit with Hedo, Hill, DRagic and someone big - Barron, Siler - is pretty good
We have to get Lawal in there, if I may be so bold

so starters would be


Nash/Duds/Frye/Warrick/JRich - three 3-pt shooters, and a PnR option for Steve. 3 guys who can rebound, and Duds will fight whether he gets it or not, defense is okay

Hmmmmm

[YFZblu]

Soles - I'm sold. Now, how do we get Hill comfortable coming off the bench?

It isn't about being comfortable, it's about being physically capable. The issue with Hill coming off the bench is that at his age, he can't play when his body is cold. Outside of convincing him to waste energy on a stationary bike at the start of each game, Hill will not come off the bench. IMO, Dudley just needs more minutes...but Hill still needs to start.

That's what I meant by comfortable - well, I knew what I meant ...

We all saw what happened last time we brough Grant off the bench - so let me rephrase: how do we make it work?

Becuase a second unit with Hedo, Hill, DRagic and someone big - Barron, Siler - is pretty good
We have to get Lawal in there, if I may be so bold

so starters would be


Nash/Duds/Frye/Warrick/JRich - three 3-pt shooters, and a PnR option for Steve. 3 guys who can rebound, and Duds will fight whether he gets it or not, defense is okay

Hmmmmm

Hill off the bench cannot work. That's what I'm saying. He isn't physically capable of being productive off the bench. I really really like that lineup though. Four of the best three point shooters in the NBA with Nash at the helm, and obviously Warrick is dangerous as a roller.

But I'll also say this: I don't think Gentry has full control over the lineups. IMO, the front office is asking him to play Hedo because they signed him, and it simply isn't working out. The Suns need to drop either Childress or Hedo. Preferrably Hedo. But obviously that's easier said..

[DRK]

Should have done this when we could've.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1024176

The OP is a genius.

The Jazz needed a SG, and could've had Barbs instead of signing Bell.

[Wannabe MEP]

Ah, found it myself:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... C&team=PHX

So far this season Dudley has the 2nd worst adjusted plus minus on our team. Hill is 6th.

1. Too early in the season to mean much. Those numbers have been bouncing like crazy, as expected. Nash was last on the team after a few games. Now he's bounced back up to all-star levels. JRich is currently last on the team.
2. Gentry is obsessed with his starting unit right now. Dudley hasn't gotten many minutes yet, and hardly any at all with Nash, where I believe he's most effective.
3. Four of Dudley's best nine units from last year (all with excellent numbers) didn't include Amare.

I looked into this more. Last year the Suns top seven units all had:
1) Jared Dudley
2) Two playmakers: Nash-JRich, Dragic-Barbosa, Nash-Dragic, or Dragic-Hill.

Dudley is extremely effective, one of the best players in the league, as a complement to playmakers. He is the perfect complement to Nash in particular. He should not be asked to do any playmaking himself, especially on a team with a glut of playmakers.

We have five playmakers, including one of the best in history in Steve Nash. Why the hell are four of them playing together, especially with Nash, who doesn't need another one on the court with him? Dragic is not enough of a playmaker by himself to allow Dudley to do what he's capable of. Dudley didn't get worse this year, but his situation changed so that's he's no longer able to play his game. Either Dudley needs to play with Nash, or one of the starting playmakers needs to move to the second unit.

[DRK]

Hopefully this answers your questions?

Quote from a thread in the GB.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4LhXMkffC0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

He's straight up ballin.

[Fo-Real]

Nice vid.