When is Pau going to surpass Kobe as the team's #1?

[Mamba Venom]

When Kobe retires

[Johnny Firpo]

<sigh>

Again, I am nowhere near a Kobe homer. I will call him out when he's lazy, when he mails it in, when he takes bad shots, etc - but I will also give him the credit that he deserves. I'll use the Jordan comparison simply because it's the same position. Jordan is still, without question, a superior player top to bottom and always will be - but you have to be pretty obtuse to not agree he's in the ballpark. It's not just me and most Laker fans that know - basketball historians, former players, current players, media professionals - basically lots and lots of experts that have far more credibility than 'guy who posts on message board'.

Using terms like 'prime impact' and 'efficiency' are basically admitting you have no real way of proving that he doesn't belong, because by most statistical categories he is unquestionably deserving. I've looked it up - he passes the stat test and he passes the eyeball test. You can go ahead and look it up yourself because I'm not going to do the research for you.

Sorry, but no. What do you mean no real way of proving? Stats aren't real? Every major advanced stat (PER, TS%, WIN SHARES, etc.) clearly shows that Bryant's prime efficiency (and impact) are inferior to not only Jordan, but Magic, Bird, KAJ, Duncan, also Shaq, Hakeem, and you could name other few, who had clearly better primes. Those really are the facts. You say i should look it up, no, you should. You can search the player comparison board, or use basketball-reference, and there are other good sites out there. It's not close. Don't get me wrong, Bryant is a tremendous player, i agree with everyone who think he's top 10, and you have to place him higher than a lot of guys who had bigger impact statistically in their prime, but i don't really see how you can place him in the top 5. He's in the same ballpark? Well, if that's the case, i think it has to be a huuuuuge one. Sorry if i offended anyone with the "homer" word. Wasn't my intention.

[Gek]

You can make an advance stat to make any player look good - advance stats are used by nerds who don't actually understand the sports they are watching.

For example -
Joe Crispin's rookie PER: 17.1, WS/48: .136
Lebron Jame's rookie PER: 18.3, WS/48: .078


Looks like Joe Crispin should take his talent's to South Beach to me.

[Johnny Firpo]

You can make an advance stat to make any player look good - advance stats are used by nerds who don't actually understand the sports they are watching.

For example -
Joe Crispin's rookie PER: 17.1, WS/48: .136
Lebron Jame's rookie PER: 18.3, WS/48: .078


Looks like Joe Crispin should take his talent's to South Beach to me.

That's not an example, that's a really weak argument. Nobody said anything about rookie years, we were talking about prime impact (years' statistical results). Tell me, how is it possible that basically every great player who people consider in the top 5, or worthy of top 10 has much better advanced stats than Bryant. Why is he the only one amongst them who looks a bit different by the numbers? Why is he only looks good through volume stats? How is it possible that MJ, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Shaq, Duncan, etc. all "relatively" close in all of the advanced stats that supposed to measure a player's impact, and Kobe's the odd man out? You don't really have to answer this question, it was rhetorical. Anyway, i'm clearly not at the best place trying to argue about that. Fans are fans. It's all good. Good luck for the season.

[Loki24]

Pau will never surpass Bryant...

[microfib4thewin]

argh, i hate the term "homer" when referring to posters. its totally unnecessary when trying to have a constructive conversation. its a weak cop out.

don't use it here.

Saying that Kobe is top 5 all time is being a homer. Saying that he is on the MJ/Wilt level is being a homer. I would say that to anyone who puts a player at a higher place than they're supposed to.

What metric are you using to place Duncan,Shaq and Bird over Kobe?

Both Bird and Duncan have more MVPs and are equal in All NBA 1st selections. The main thing that sets Bird and Duncan apart from Kobe is how long Kobe took before he became a leader, whereas Bird and Duncan had already led an unimpressive team to a title by their second year. This isn't to downplay what Kobe did during the 3 peat, but:

1. Kobe wasn't the guy who help his teammates through thick and thin. He was a player whose impact is only limited to what he does on court, kind of like Lebron right now, except young Kobe was(and still is) less efficient with possessions because he's not a great decision maker and he didn't possess godly athleticism like MJ or Lebron has.

2. Shaq may not have won without Kobe in 02, but I don't see how that holds true in 00 and 01 when he was playing the absolute best ball of his career. Conversely, I don't see how a young Kobe could have won a title, let alone 3, if he was paired up with a lesser center like Alonzo or KG. He didn't have the maturity to let other players play their part, and we really don't know if he would have played smarter if he didn't have Shaq to clean things up in the middle.

That leaves Shaq, who didn't have the leadership nor the stability to do the same thing as Duncan or Bird, but from 93-06 he was an allstar, and most of time was a top 5 player of the season, Kobe still needed a couple more years to reach that longevity. I would have Kobe passing Shaq if he wins one more title and be on par with Duncan but still below Bird.

[SoundGarden]

2. Shaq may not have won without Kobe in 02, but I don't see how that holds true in 00 and 01 when he was playing the absolute best ball of his career. Conversely, I don't see how a young Kobe could have won a title, let alone 3, if he was paired up with a lesser center like Alonzo or KG. He didn't have the maturity to let other players play their part, and we really don't know if he would have played smarter if he didn't have Shaq to clean things up in the middle.

That leaves Shaq, who didn't have the leadership nor the stability to do the same thing as Duncan or Bird, but from 93-06 he was an allstar, and most of time was a top 5 player of the season, Kobe still needed a couple more years to reach that longevity. I would have Kobe passing Shaq if he wins one more title and be on par with Duncan but still below Bird.

in case you dont remember kobe carried the team in 01 till finals,so its very arguable that shaq may not have won that year as well,not with chuckers like ai or young tmac.
i agree completely on 00 tho he was amazing.
and maybe young kobe couldnt have won title with kg or zo but his career numbers would be like 30-6-6 on that situation,are you taking this into account as well?
kobe was going to drafted by njn they took kerry kittles instead and he averaged 16,5 ppg with 14.5 fga per game.
that tells me a lot.
his career numbers would be god like in that situation,he already had one of the best individual career accomplishments in nba history in a situation where he is allowed to do whatever he wants his individual accomplishments would jump off the charts.

and in shaq s case youre also completely leaving out that shaq 93-06 always missed a lot of time due to injuries,coz of that his prime effect always took a solid hit.

i agree its too early for saying kobe is top 5 player,he is 9 in my list but im pretty sure by the time he finishes his career he will be in top 6.

[andrewww]

argh, i hate the term "homer" when referring to posters. its totally unnecessary when trying to have a constructive conversation. its a weak cop out.

don't use it here.

Saying that Kobe is top 5 all time is being a homer. Saying that he is on the MJ/Wilt level is being a homer. I would say that to anyone who puts a player at a higher place than they're supposed to.

What metric are you using to place Duncan,Shaq and Bird over Kobe?

Both Bird and Duncan have more MVPs and are equal in All NBA 1st selections. The main thing that sets Bird and Duncan apart from Kobe is how long Kobe took before he became a leader, whereas Bird and Duncan had already led an unimpressive team to a title by their second year. This isn't to downplay what Kobe did during the 3 peat, but:

1. Kobe wasn't the guy who help his teammates through thick and thin. He was a player whose impact is only limited to what he does on court, kind of like Lebron right now, except young Kobe was(and still is) less efficient with possessions because he's not a great decision maker and he didn't possess godly athleticism like MJ or Lebron has.

2. Shaq may not have won without Kobe in 02, but I don't see how that holds true in 00 and 01 when he was playing the absolute best ball of his career. Conversely, I don't see how a young Kobe could have won a title, let alone 3, if he was paired up with a lesser center like Alonzo or KG. He didn't have the maturity to let other players play their part, and we really don't know if he would have played smarter if he didn't have Shaq to clean things up in the middle.

That leaves Shaq, who didn't have the leadership nor the stability to do the same thing as Duncan or Bird, but from 93-06 he was an allstar, and most of time was a top 5 player of the season, Kobe still needed a couple more years to reach that longevity. I would have Kobe passing Shaq if he wins one more title and be on par with Duncan but still below Bird.

seriously, it's people like you that just baffle the mind. it's like the one scout on espn saying that kobe needs at least one more title to possibly be included in the top 10 of all time.

even if he were to get ring #6 and finals mvp #3 there are those who will still say he's barely tied with duncan (who mind you had plenty of help in 2005 and 2007 but no one ever belittles his accomplishments, in fact they go out of their way to say he had no help which is a myth).

MVPs nowadays are pure politics, based on your reasoning steve nash is higher on the all time greats list than kobe or shaq because his 2 MVPs is worth more than either of their single ones.

it's about stats, but also the context of what they mean. bird was one of the smartest offensive players of all time, even moreso than kobe which is no slight to kobe. bird's team defense was smart but not at kobe's level.

young kobe in 2001 more than held his own and was the first year where you cant say he played the pippen role (not trying to hate on pip, i think his allocades have been diminished by too many ppl playing up jordan as god even though i will fully admit MJ is the GOAT). kobe was the main difference in the 2001 WCF ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb5eifJpD-Q

and if you look at stats alone, pau is the best player on the lakers' right? but we all see what happens when physical big men defend him, he bitches up. i love pau, but he's still got another level to go in his toughness and defense before we can prop him up at the true superstar level imo.

another thing with being a leader, kobe was a rookie out of HS joining a shaq-led team with phil jackson at the reigns. you think a veteran squad is just going to led a rookie come in and lead them? of course not, no matter who the rookie was, whether it be lebron or bird (who were thrust into leadership roles because let's be real they weren't on the best team to start).

kobe's in the bottom half of the top 10 right now if anyone takes off their hater/homer glasses, and before it's all said and done i have a feeling he'll be firmly entrenched in the top 5, haters be damned like you.

[MasterRyu]

So far this year, Gasol has been the more consistent producer. In that sense, he has been the better player than Kobe thus far this season. Kobe has faced double and triple teams before, but never has he struggled with his shot like this. I haven't seen many Lakers games this year, but judging from the stats, putting up more 25 shot attempts (not saying that' his average, but he's had games with 30 and 33 attempts...wow) are a little much for a team with so much fire power. Plus, I think Kobe really takes it easy on defense. I don't care if he can turn the D on just like that against superstar players; defense is 90% effort, and if you don't try hard most of the time, then it doesn't matter if you stopped a few high calibur players.

That said, Kobe is still Kobe. He is the most skillful player in the NBA with a ton of playoff experience. On a pure basketball comparison, Kobe is definitely IMO the best in the league. Unfortunately or fortunately (depends on your viewpoint), the Lakers will always be Kobe's team. Gasol just doesn't have the IT factor in terms of hungriness and leadership to take over Kobe.

Right now I will say it's Kobe 1AA, Gasol 1BB

[Dekadez]

Do you guys think Pau has the ability to lead and carry a team the way Kobe has these past couple of years? As time advances, it's only logical that Gasol will one day take over, unless Kobe his skills will deteriorate at a really slow pace.

I'm really not that sure if Pau has the personality to do it.

[ALL HAIL]

micro is much like myself ... a man who is not afraid to have his OWN opinion ... even if he is all alone ... and a little on the stubborn side.

All that being said, I agree with him.

I don't see how Kobe is one of the top five players in history (and that has nothing to do with his numbers this year) ... but everybody has their own litmus test.

I base my opinions about top 5 players ever on whether I've seen them play (so that personally excludes Wilt, Russell, West, Robertson, Baylor, etc.) and their direct impact on winning championships (although, like micro, the number of rings is not as important as their direct impact on winning those rings ... especially their direct impact in playoff and championship games, with even greater emphasis given to close out games).

At their absolute best, I think Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Bird, and Kareem (in no particular order -- although Magic is the best IMO) are higher on the list than Kobe. I might even put Olajuwon, Isiah Thomas, and Shaq above him, as well as Malone (even though he never won a ring).

I absolutely love Kobe and all his accomplishments but as a purely objective fan of NBA basketball he just isn't top 5 to me, even if you exclude some of the all-time greats.

He'd be much closer to top 5 if he were more cerebral in his play (consistently better decisions) and his shot selection over his career was markedly better (he's never came close to 50% from the field -- that says a lot folks -- he's really the only "great player" in the discussion of top 5 to not scratch 50% from the field).

I feel you micro ... today at least. Pau is still a softy though ... it is what it is.

[Kilroy]

Pau Gasol is 30yo... He's in his prime (maybe past) and likely the best he's ever going to be...

If he hasn't taken over from Kobe now, he's not going to.

I think it's pretty safe to say nobody currently on this Lakers team is going to take over duties as the team's #1 option. At least not a 'play-offs bound #1'...

When Kobe retires... Which I have a sneaking suspicion, might be sooner than any of us are ready for... Pau might still be here and be the go-to guy, but I doubt that will be much of a positive thing.

The Lakers are good at bringing in the right talent at the right time for the right price, so the next #1 is probably out there somewhere but not in a Lakers uniform right now.

Frankly, I'm going to be real curious about what happens next season... Possible lock-out year... Phil leaves, but if the team is basically in tact does that mean the Triangle goes too? What about the coaching staff? Does Jerry Buss take this opportunity to step down and hand over the team to his son? (I hope not)
And the big question, if Kobe really does want to 'Retire a Laker' how long does he put up with a team in transition to a new system? I think he plays out his contract if everything goes perfectly and we're still competitive at a high level... If not... I could see an early retirement maybe for him too...

[vmor]

When Kobe retires and Lakers get a top mature, penetrating + passing guard

I don't see how Kobe is one of the top five players in history...
He'd be much closer to top 5 if he were more cerebral in his play (consistently better decisions) and his shot selection over his career was markedly better (he's never came close to 50% from the field -- that says a lot folks -- he's really the only "great player" in the discussion of top 5 to not scratch 50% from the field).
I feel you micro ... today at least. Pau is still a softy though ... it is what it is.

Kobe: do I think that he's great? Yes. Complete? Not until he watches tapes of Magic (my GOAT - perhaps because I used to play guard in college) to learn how to choose various ways to make the team win a game (and ignore manhood challenges.)

Pau: do I think that he's great? Yes. Complete? He's from an upper middle class family from Barcelona. He'll never be Shaq, physically or mentally - I think more The Admiral?

Magic and Kareem / Kobe and Pau ... do we NEED to decide who's better?

[ALL HAIL]

Kobe: do I think that he's great? Yes. Complete? Not until he watches tapes of Magic (my GOAT - perhaps because I used to play guard in college) to learn how to choose various ways to make the team win a game (and ignore manhood challenges.)

True!

You can't measure a player's greatness by the athleticism they possess to do ALL things on the court. If this were true, Jordan and Kobe would be at the top of the list. Magic and Bird's defense weren't super but they made up for it in MANY other ways. Jordan and Kobe's athleticism made them CAPABLE of doing EVERYTHING on the floor on offense and defense ... but they, especially Kobe, quite honestly, just didn't do it (EVERYTHING -- passing, team play, sacrafice).

Jordan's greatness in undeniable. So strong was his "superhero" play, he is on every top three on the planet.

Kobe's "superhero" play is superb as well but a notch under Jordan. Mix this with Kobe's ineffieciency, and Kobe slips way down the list in my opinion.

[michaelc204]

Gasol will be the #1 option next season. I don't really see Kobe keeping up this prime time play for much longer.

[semi-sentient]

No, he won't be. Do people even watch the Lakers? He's NEVER going to be the #1 option. It will be Kobe until the day he retires, whether we like it or not. Is anyone going to stop him from taking 20+ shots per game or being more aggressive/competitive than anyone else in the NBA? Is Gasol going to take on the same leadership role come playoff time? Are teams going to scheme against Gasol and let Kobe get his?

Even if Kobe were actually willing to let Gasol be the man, which he isn't, he doesn't have it in him to carry the team for a full season. Hell, the guy was worn out after what, 3 weeks? He's going to find the fountain of youth in the off-season? I love me some Pau Gasol, but he's made it perfectly clear that he is not a franchise player or guy that can carry a team anywhere.

[Slava]

^adding to that every good thing we do in the 4th quarter comes when Kobe is doubled in the post and makes a play out of it. We've never more than on a couple of occasions put Pau in that position. He might do it for a short stretch but I think last game has made it abundantly clear that the pecking order is still 1. Kobe and 2. Pau.

[Anklebreaker702]

^adding to that every good thing we do in the 4th quarter comes when Kobe is doubled in the post and makes a play out of it. We've never more than on a couple of occasions put Pau in that position. He might do it for a short stretch but I think last game has made it abundantly clear that the pecking order is still 1. Kobe and 2. Pau.

I have to agree with both u & semi. I will add 1 more thing as well. In order to be a # 1 option you have to have that mental fortitude & grit built in you from the beginning & Pau seems to draw his off others.

Initially I said why not? But now my why has been answered.