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Can you build a championship team with no superstar?

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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#21 » by martypython » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:34 pm

There's a difference between having a team that's well balanced on both ends of the floor and having one superstar dominating the floor. Jordan can never win a NBA Finals without Pippen, neither can Kobe win it all without Shaq in his prime or Gasol and Bynum. Lebron can't win anything in Cleveland if your second option is a spot up shooter called Mo Williams.

The Heat can't win anything because 1. they have nobody who can stretch the floor with Miller out, 2. Joel Anthony is not a defensive presence in the middle, and 3 just because you have 3 superstars entering their prime doesn't mean that you are the best team in the NBA, especailly if they are all similar players in terms of ball dominance and reliance on scoring off of fouls.

In the end, the team has to be well balanced on both ends of the floor, and a good coach who can instill his philosophy on the court that works hard and plays tough defense can go far.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#22 » by HomieOmey » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:12 pm

You need at least one superstar or three all-star caliber players and great defense. The Pistons had a DPOY player and three two-way all-stars. Then they got Rasheed who was also a strong rebounder who could score.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#23 » by ih8 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:12 pm

No.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#24 » by Landomar » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:25 pm

It's almost impossible to win a championship without a superstar. Most teams with superstars don't win championships, after all. To even reach contendor status, you have to be able to compete with good teams built around players like Paul, Howard, James, Durant, Bryant, etc. Many of these teams even have excellent superstar/star combos, like Bryant + Gasol, Durant + Westbrook, Duncan + Parker + Ginobili, and so on. Beating those teams isn't easy, and you need a lot of talent to do it. You almost always are going to need your own superstar; that's the reality of the NBA.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#25 » by roundhead0 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:32 pm

First, define superstar. Is that top 3 in the league? Top 5? Top 10?

When Detroit won, Ben Wallace was 7th in MVP voting.

You need stars to win. Without a superstar you'd better have a lot of above average starters who mesh very well together. What was the last team to win with no true star? Last one that comes to mind in the 75-76 Celtics, and they had three all-stars on that team though none would be considered a superstar.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#26 » by UrosSlokar » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:18 pm

Those of you who are arguing the pistons had no superstar, is it really different from the current Celtics? Similar teams, strong defensively and top point guards. I'd make the argument that the Celtics have no superstar either.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#27 » by TheMainEvent » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:24 pm

To those negating the Pistons from this argument because they had 4 all-stars, there are two points to make:
First, you can argue that none of them, individually, warranted an all-star selection (except maybe Ben Wallace -- just because of the lack of centers). They all became all-stars because they all fit well together and because it was hard to say one deserved a spot over the other. It also didn't make sense to have NO all-stars from one of the best teams in the league, so coaches liked to vote them in collectively.

Secondly, the argument here is about a possible championship team without a SUPERstar, someone the Pistons did not have. I don't care if Billups is a leader and clutch shooter, I will never consider a 16 ppg, 6 apg, and 40% shooting PG to be a superstar. I also don't care how good a defender Ben Wallace was, a SUPERstar has to bring it on both ends of the floor.


As for the argument itself, I think it's certainly possible, but obviously difficult. It may be a cliche, but defense does win championships. It's best to have a mix of the two, but in recent years, teams like Detroit, San Antonio, and Boston proved that the offense can be lacking but if the defense is rock-solid, championships can be won (San Antonio and Boston had superstars and/or good offensive players, but their teams were never collectively "great" offensive teams). The problem with teams without a superstar is that there's generally no "go-to guy" on offense. All teams go on offensive slumps, but it's often superstars that can fight through them and still create the points. Otherwise, you'd really need an amazing defense, a great coach, and a group of players who really know and play according to their roles. Luck would also be extremely helpful.
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TheMainEvent on Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:03 pm wrote:I say the Raptors win the championship in 2019.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#28 » by So Clutch » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:37 pm

maxpower88 wrote:yes you can: detroit pistons, 2004.

they had a starting line of 5 great players, but not one of them was a superstar.


Here's a question: what's harder - finding one superstar, or getting five all-stars on the same team. Arguably, the latter is just as difficult to get.

What everyone seems to be actually asking is: Can you be a contender with mediocre/borderline-good players (the only players that Raptors appear to be able to obtain)?

The answer is a resounding "no".
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#29 » by Lauzy Lau » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:08 pm

I believe you can. And as everyone else points out the Detroit Pistons are an example of this.

If you want to look at this in a bit more detail the pistons were good because they were fundamentally good at what makes a championship team. They had the ability to make runs. Runs, as can be pointed out by any idiot with zero basketball knowledge, come from the ability to score (don't need to score on every posession mind you) + the ability to defend very well in succession.

If the raptors really want to take the road of "a championship team with no superstar" they need to beef up their post and perimeter defense. Physicality is paramount. A major overhaul of their roster is required including their style of play. How many times have you been frustrated that there is no big man under the bucket when a raptor jacks up a shot?
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#30 » by MLSE » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:14 pm

Bogut
Millsap
Iguodala
Hinrich
Billups

Bench: Ginobili, Curry, Battier, Noah, Scola


Hmm....

Maybe :D

---------------------------

But seriously in all reality it would take some serious cap control.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#31 » by HeyJoe » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:18 pm

pistons
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#32 » by TheMainEvent » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:23 pm

So Clutch wrote:Here's a question: what's harder - finding one superstar, or getting five all-stars on the same team. Arguably, the latter is just as difficult to get.

What everyone seems to be actually asking is: Can you be a contender with mediocre/borderline-good players (the only players that Raptors appear to be able to obtain)?

The answer is a resounding "no".


The latter is much more difficult. Finding one superstar requires either lots of money, a favorable destination, and/or a good (usually high) draft pick.
Getting a bunch of all-stars on one team generally requires all of the above, plus a really great/lucky GM.

Also, the OP specifically referenced the Pistons as an example of a team having achieved this (and it is his/her question), so the Pistons have been a reference point for other posters. Therefore, it would seem a team of all-stars is included in the discussion, not just semi-decent players.

But I'd even argue that the Pistons were actually a bunch of mediocre/borderline-good players. What worked for them was the fact that they just had really good chemistry and listened to their coaches about playing tough defense. On paper, it'd be difficult to say that any of them really deserved an all-star nod. Billups averaged about 16.5 points on 40% shooting and 6 assists during his best years in Detroit -- believe it or not, leadership doesn't get you all-star nods. Hamilton averaged about 19 points, but he was considered very one-dimensional, and isn't much different than the present day Kevin Martin. R. Wallace averaged about 13.5 points on 41% shooting, and 7 rebounds. B. Wallace was probably the only legit all-star, and that's mainly because of the lack of good centers, especially in the East. I don't remember if Prince ever got an all-star nod, but he averaged 13 points and 4.5 rebounds during those years.

My point is that more than anything, the reason they became all-stars is because the team was winning a lot. It was difficult for the Eastern conference coaches to give all-star nods to others in the East because the East was generally weak (compared to the West) and because they couldn't really declare one Piston as being more an all-star than the other.
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TheMainEvent on Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:03 pm wrote:I say the Raptors win the championship in 2019.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#33 » by Volcano » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:26 pm

What if you buy low on all-star level players while giving up picks, cap space, expirings or young players. How would a Gasol + Bosh + Caron Butler + Stephen Jackson + Arenas line-up look?

A bit weak defensively I guess.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#34 » by HighOctane » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:28 pm

There's no clear definition of "superstar" here - are we talking about upper echelon like Wade/Kobe/Lebron?
If you are suggesting that, then sure, Detroit didn't have any. But they had a ton of All-Stars. Ben Wallace and Chauncey, Tayshaun was on the USA team and Rip/Sheed were both borderline All-Stars, I can't remember. They were stacked regardless.
Point is, you need talent all around the luxury tax threshold to really contend in this league.
The fact that we are in Canada is also hampering, but that can be saved for later.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#35 » by dawn_wan » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:11 pm

2004 pistons kid
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#36 » by Mr.Raptorsingh » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:44 pm

If you buy low on talent (which is essentially what Dumars did - well, aside from the Stackhouse-for-Hamilton, and S&T Hill for Wallace), you have a chance, however small it may be, to have some of them actually reach their potential. In Detroit's case, they brought in two guys who were high draft picks - Billups was the 2nd overall pick, Hamilton was the 7th overall pick, etc.), and it just so happens, that all they needed was an opportunity to play.

The thing about Detroit is, they didn't actually draft any of those guys. The guy they did draft as a high lottery pick (Darko Milicic) did not contribute at all to their championship team. So, it's funny how everything kind of fell in place for them.

BC is doing something similar right now, in acquiring Bayless. And if you remember, he also did something similar back in Pheonix, when he acquired Joe Johnson for veterans.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#37 » by architect_ed » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:41 am

Yup Detroit Pistons....
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#38 » by lucky777s » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:03 am

I like the 'Defensive Superstar' line about Wallace. Very true.

And I would add another term - 'Superstar by Committee'. 3 all stars in your starting lineup has to equal 1 superstar, doesn't it? Pistons had 5 all star level starters.

And Rasheed was a supremely talented dude. He could have been an all time great if he had that internal drive.

Another thing they had was a 'Superstar Coach'. LB was perfect for that team and got the absolute best out of them for the 2 Finals appearances. He was probably at the top of his game then.

Given that they are the clear exception to the rule I am not sure it makes sense to try to recreate that. It was a very unique situation with perfectly complimentary pieces and 2 way players.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#39 » by dkmo » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:42 am

"Can you build a championship team with no superstar?"

No, I can't...

but it's possible that a competent GM might be able to put one together with a bit of luck a la Joe Dumars and that championshop winning detroit pistons team.
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Re: Can you build a championship team with no superstar? 

Post#40 » by [SJJ] » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:44 am

How many teams not named the Pistons have won a championship without a superstar since the NBA's inaugural season???
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