Are We Better Without Kirk?

[Kanyewest]

Anthony Goldwire?

Laron Profit?

Blasphemy!!!

Tyronn Lue, Javaris Crittenton, Mike James

[hands11]

No we are not better without him.

If Gil and Wall are both healthy at the same time, then we get to decide on the best way to use them.
Now we also have Nick playing better and Gee and we have AT to go along with that.

I don't believe we have had all healthy at the same time so let wait and see what line ups work best once we do.

I could see starting Gil and Nick. Gil and Wall. Gil and Kirk. Wall and Kirk.

What I do like is Gil and Nick playing together and contrary to Walls #1 pick status, Gil is still the proven vet pro. If we gain more by splitting up Gil and Wall so we always have a stud on the floor, I'm not sold that Gil doesn't get the start. Wall has plenty of time, plus he has been dinged up.

[RealOffenSE]

Scouting Report on Kirk from a Bulls fan who followed him his whole career:

The good:

Decent 3 point shooter
Above average one on one defender ~ scrappy
Has some dribble drive moves somtimes where he can lose his defender, mostly an exagerated hesitation dribble
Average passer but assist to turnover isnt great (dont know if this should be a good thing)

The bad

Had one dunk that I remember in a game, but not a finisher, not very athletic at all
Will drive all the way to the basket and then just keep dribbling until hes out of the lane
Will leave his man whos camping on the three point line when he shouldnt be helping and eventually that player will get passed to an nail a 3 (killed us in the playoffs last year, I mean come on Jamario moon was raping us)
Will start fights but not really fight
Has cold stretches

[nate33]

Will start fights but not really fight

[jimij]

That's one hell of an accurate scouting reports, especially the fighting.

[VA_story]

Yes..we are much better without that bum. When Wall is back healthy I expect to see Kirk's minutes drop drastically. If not, it's nothing else to do but question Flip's coaching.

[AceDegenerate]

Will drive all the way to the basket and then just keep dribbling until hes out of the lane

To me this is the most frustrating aspect of his game, as if he doesn't spend enough time with the ball in his hands when he actually makes a move toward the basket he simply dribbles it right out and passes off into the same 18ft contested jumper we could've taken by simply coming down the court and throwing it up.

[Hoopalotta]

I think there was a post from Closg in here, I was replying to said post (non-bombastic like).....

I'm surprised the Posting Police have not stopped by to stifle opinions they don't like.

Your problem was you tried to defend what was an originally indefensible position, disingenuously shifted your argument and slid in with "reading comprehension" remarks when it was obvious that they were not at all applicable. I held back from slamming your final post in the HEAT thread, but it would have been too easy to slam that one too as there were easy targets. I'm not trying to twist the knife by saying that but rather make it clear as to the dynamic at play.

You're pleasant enough in most regards, but you have issues with not being objective, fixating/placing too much emphasis on the bottom of the roster, heavily stressing the negative and then excessively flagellating a dead equine. And I do not find your breakdowns of roster issues to be particularly big picture, even handed or intuitive, not that that's the end of the world or anything. Otherwise, Closg, you have a nice enough sense of humor and are a good bloke who's greatly loyal to the 'Zards. But that there were about five or six separate drive-by posts taking shots at your positions well illustrates the sort of dynamic I'm talking about with how the continual negativity in your posting goes over and sometimes elicits overly bellicose responses. A lot of people here complain, but they are more consistent with hitting on core issues.

Hopefully this will go some ways towards our having an understanding and moving forward.

Anyway, as to the thread and the issue at hand, Hinrich is a rotation guard who's playing too much. The NBA's just like that - there's guys who are OK when they're hitting threshold X, but when you take them to Y, they stink. I have to wonder if Kirk's D would be better with less minutes (not that I'm sure, but I wonder). We also really lack shot creators in the rotation right now, so that exacerbates his weaknesses.

I can accept that there would be a few other rotation guards that we'd be better with playing Hiney's role, but our problems go all up and down the rotation. Our healthy 1st or 2nd option guys have a composite TS% of what, 50%? Statistically speaking, the only areas where this team excels is in forcing turnovers and offensive rebounding and, in just about every other metric, we're 25th or worse.

I can see Kirk as a problem for us as is, but our issues are very broad and deep. If we had Ridnour or Sessions or George Hill or Toney Douglas, I have to suspect said unfortunate would be getting called out.

[fugop]

By board standard, I probably qualify as a Hinrich fan. I like his effort on defense, and I like the idea of him as a mentor for Wall and complement for Gil.

But I can't understand why his shooting is so erratic -- he either airballs or bricks open jumpers (he front-rimmed a technical ft tonight) or hits bizarre side-fading turn arounds. Usually it's a fast-twitch, slow-twitch misfire when that sort of thing happens, but Hinrich doesn't appear to have anu fast twitch. I also hate the pointless drives through the lane, that mostly end in clean steals, dribbles off the knee, obvious blocks, or misguided passes that turn into opponent fast breaks.

The good that Hinrich does on the court is banal and boring, the bad horrific and galling. It's hard to keep the value of a player like that in perspective. Especially given how curiously he's being used -- a broken down Gil or green Wall seems an obvious better option at lead guard. And I don't want to see anymore 3 PG, 1SF, 1PF lineups (Gil, Hinrich, Wall, Booker, Blatche were on the court tonight, I think).

[closg00]

I think there was a post from Closg in here, I was replying to said post (non-bombastic like).....

I'm surprised the Posting Police have not stopped by to stifle opinions they don't like.

Your problem was you tried to defend what was an originally indefensible position, disingenuously shifted your argument and slid in with "reading comprehension" remarks when it was obvious that they were not at all applicable. I held back from slamming your final post in the HEAT thread, but it would have been too easy to slam that one too as there were easy targets. I'm not trying to twist the knife by saying that but rather make it clear as to the dynamic at play.

You're pleasant enough in most regards, but you have issues with not being objective, fixating/placing too much emphasis on the bottom of the roster, heavily stressing the negative and then excessively flagellating a dead equine. And I do not find your breakdowns of roster issues to be particularly big picture, even handed or intuitive, not that that's the end of the world or anything. Otherwise, Closg, you have a nice enough sense of humor and are a good bloke who's greatly loyal to the 'Zards. But that there were about five or six separate drive-by posts taking shots at your positions well illustrates the sort of dynamic I'm talking about with how the continual negativity in your posting goes over and sometimes elicits overly bellicose responses. A lot of people here complain, but they are more consistent with hitting on core issues.

Hopefully this will go some ways towards our having an understanding and moving forward.

Anyway, as to the thread and the issue at hand, Hinrich is a rotation guard who's playing too much. The NBA's just like that - there's guys who are OK when they're hitting threshold X, but when you take them to Y, they stink. I have to wonder if Kirk's D would be better with less minutes (not that I'm sure, but I wonder). We also really lack shot creators in the rotation right now, so that exacerbates his weaknesses.

I can accept that there would be a few other rotation guards that we'd be better with playing Hiney's role, but our problems go all up and down the rotation. Our healthy 1st or 2nd option guys have a composite TS% of what, 50%? Statistically speaking, the only areas where this team excels is in forcing turnovers and offensive rebounding and, in just about every other metric, we're 25th or worse.

I can see Kirk as a problem for us as is, but our issues are very broad and deep. If we had Ridnour or Sessions or George Hill or Toney Douglas, I have to suspect said unfortunate would be getting called out.

No-biggie Hoops, it's best to keep-on trucking on these boards, every guy on here is playing-out their GM fantasy's on the boards and it should never be taken too seriously, it's just a bunch of guys shooting the sh*t about hoops. Sometimes peeps just throw stuff out there, other times guys are posting their well thougth-out ideas/propsosals. It's all good.

Ps. Someone needs to kick-up the Happy thread, we need it.

[Hoopalotta]

No-biggie Hoops, it's best to keep-on trucking on these boards, every guy on here is playing-out their GM fantasy's on the boards and it should never be taken too seriously, it's just a bunch of guys shooting the sh*t about hoops. Sometimes peeps just throw stuff out there, other times guys are posting their well thougth-out ideas/propsosals. It's all good.

Ps. Someone needs to kick-up the Happy thread, we need it.

Well good, I'm glad we sorted that out. I'm sorry I got harsh, but we just kind of escalated things as happens sometimes.Even aside from our exchange though, it's definitely looking like a hard year of fandom with a fair share of the back and forth here being, well, rather terse. We were probably just an outlier there.

Take care, Closg.