Shaun Marcum Traded to the Brewers for Brett Lawrie

[dagger]

All of his comments and remarks to the media and fans over the last two years have had a tendency not to come true. That would be my reason.

Roy Halliday was traded in part because he was expressly told Rogers was going to cut payroll and so he asked to be dealt to a contender (a contender in this sport usually means an organization will to spend north of $100 million which the Jays have never done, IIRC.)

Payroll was down against last year, and by my calculations, there's a 50-50 chance it's down again this year despite the balloon payments to Vernon.

Right now we have holes in the bullpen, a hole in either LF or 3B depending on where Bautista ends up - unless we're trading him for a prospect on the sell-high theory, in which case we would have both holes to fill. We have great uncertainty behind the plate and a possible downgrade at first since Lind's fielding is nowhere as good as Overbay's and aside from more power, he doesn't bring much more average that OverPay.

So while not assuming the payroll is being chopped again, I do see the possibility it will be smaller, and frankly, with the way the BoSox have improved, and even the Orioles made a nice acquisition in Reynolds, I have to wonder if this team really intends to duplicate its 85 win season, or whether we should prepare for the 70 win season everybody was expecting last year,

Call me cynical, but I need to see some of these question marks turned into answers before I buy any tickets.

And if this is to be a 70 win season, essentially by design, well, Rogers can go screw itself.

[guvernator]

All of his comments and remarks to the media and fans over the last two years have had a tendency not to come true. That would be my reason.

Call me cynical, but I need to see some of these question marks turned into answers before I buy any tickets.

And if this is to be a 70 win season, essentially by design, well, Rogers can go screw itself.

And then people spout things such as "Toronto is the 4th largest market in NA" and similar nonsense. Toronto is a Maple Laffs town. For rest of the teams, it is simply interested in following a frontrunner.
If you want a 150 million dollar payroll, then start showing up to the games, otherwise, don't squirm.

[youreachiteach]

Oh please. Why do you think the Yankee, Boston or Anaheim fans show up? Because they are "baseball" towns? Because they'll show up if they suck or if they don't spend money?

Why shouldn't we be allowed to expect the same? Because we have a "business" owner. Great. Yay us.

They show up because they KNOW the product on the field is consistently going to be excellent because they get what they pay for.

The Jays spend to win people will show up. Guaranteed. The reason it's a "Maplelaffs" town, is because the leafs did the same thing until the cap changed what they could do. But for all their fumbling, the fans know the leafs will do anything to win as far as money is concerned.

By the way, Rogers is the richest owner in the sportl. Doesn't it behoove them to behave like it, instead of acting like Minnesota?

By the way, why is this such a successful business model? In what business does the customer come to the supplier without any faith in the product and told, if you come, we'll make something better?

Does that sound like a good sales pitch?

[darth_federer]

Its a chicken and egg thing. Rogers will spend IMO. They wouldn't make public pronouncements and AA wouldn't reveal that they intend to spend unless the money was there. We arent ready to compete yet and AA is sticking to the timeline.

[guvernator]

Call me cynical, but I need to see some of these question marks turned into answers before I buy any tickets.

And if this is to be a 70 win season, essentially by design, well, Rogers can go screw itself.

And then people spout things such as "Toronto is the 4th largest market in NA" and similar nonsense. Toronto is a Maple Laffs town. For rest of the teams, it is simply interested in following a frontrunner.
If you want a 150 million dollar payroll, then start showing up to the games, otherwise, don't squirm.

Oh please. Why do you think the Yankee, Boston or Anaheim fans show up? Because they are "baseball" towns? Because they'll show up if they suck or if they don't spend money?

Why shouldn't we be allowed to expect the same? Because we have a "business" owner. Great. Yay us.

Actually that is one of the reasons. Yanks, Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Cardinals and Cubs (wouldn't include phillies since they are very much a front runner town as well) and mets can spend so much dough because their managements are aware that their is a baseball culture and If they bring in high profile players fans will show up, which will in turn allow the management to continue the spending.
No such correlation has been established in Toronto. When the jays payroll was up to 100 million, attendance was still stuck in the bottom third.

Baseball culture simply doesn't exist in this city to the extent that it does in the major metros in US.

[J Dilla]

Kinda shocked that one of our best pitchers is traded away when we aren't a good pitching team in the first place. I really liked Marcum.

Don't understand what AA is tryna do here. We must get Zack to make up for this loss.

[flatjacket1]

Kinda shocked that one of our best pitchers is traded away when we aren't a good pitching team in the first place. I really liked Marcum.

Don't understand what AA is tryna do here. We must get Zack to make up for this loss.

We traded an old, 2 years left pitcher for who is now arguably the best prospect on our team with team control for 6 years (and hes Canadian, which makes re-signing likely)

I don't see how you guys would have rather Marcum for 2 years than Brett for his career?

Money saving or not, I hope we keep this kid and don't flip him. I bet he has a better career than Drabek or JPA.

[dagger]

Kinda shocked that one of our best pitchers is traded away when we aren't a good pitching team in the first place. I really liked Marcum.

Don't understand what AA is tryna do here. We must get Zack to make up for this loss.

We traded an old, 2 years left pitcher for who is now arguably the best prospect on our team with team control for 6 years (and hes Canadian, which makes re-signing likely)

I don't see how you guys would have rather Marcum for 2 years than Brett for his career?

Money saving or not, I hope we keep this kid and don't flip him. I bet he has a better career than Drabek or JPA.

First off, you make it sound like Marcum only has two years of good pitching in him. You don't know that. He could have 5-7 good years. Secondly, there is no sure thing Lawrie makes it to the bigs, and a kid from BC is no sure thing to stay here as an FA - Seattle, for example, is much closer to BC than Toronto. And the weather is much nicer in California.

[dagger]

Actually that is one of the reasons. Yanks, Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Cardinals and Cubs (wouldn't include phillies since they are very much a front runner town as well) and mets can spend so much dough because their managements are aware that their is a baseball culture and If they bring in high profile players fans will show up, which will in turn allow the management to continue the spending.
No such correlation has been established in Toronto. When the jays payroll was up to 100 million, attendance was still stuck in the bottom third.

Baseball culture simply doesn't exist in this city to the extent that it does in the major metros in US.

You certainly won't rebuild the baseball culture by not investing in it. Considering how many years the Jays have been out of the playoffs, and how much those "cultured" baseball markets do spend to remain relevant, you can't really blame the fans here for not wanting to stick their toe back in the cold waters.

I'm not asking for the team to be 2011 contenders, or sign someone like Crawford, but I also want to see some signs the Jays aren't going to take a step back from .500 ball in the name of more stockpiling of prospects before I pony up some cash. Just give me a sense that something positive might happen. Otherwise, I'll just set here and read the entrails of the minor league reports and like Rogers, save my money until the team is ready to contend.

I'd like to point out that sometimes, even if you have no intention of contending you can advance your future agenda by using financial clout. The Raptors added $5 million to the payroll to pry Bayless away from New Orleans. The team's payroll is not much less than it was last year, and I applaud that. In effect, we bought a lottery pick for $5 million.

But Rogers doesn't seem as willing to me to spend even up to former levels. If it wants to make a statement about its commitment to winning, but doesn't want to sign a guy like Crawford now because it's premature - and it would be - then scour around for a would-be contender which wants to spend but can't, and take on an albatross contract (a non-productive player earning, say, $7-8 million a year for two more years) and get a good prospect with him. That would be a better way to bulk up than trading good major league players. Maybe you throw in a lesser prospect to ensure the guy you are getting is a true Tier 1 guy.

Yes, we signed a couple of great Latin prospects last year but even adding that to the team's 2010 salary we are well below the team's peak spending level. The plan appears to be reasonable, but with some aggressive spending, it can be accelerated, too. Like the Raps did with Bayless.

[J Dilla]

Kinda shocked that one of our best pitchers is traded away when we aren't a good pitching team in the first place. I really liked Marcum.

Don't understand what AA is tryna do here. We must get Zack to make up for this loss.

We traded an old, 2 years left pitcher for who is now arguably the best prospect on our team with team control for 6 years (and hes Canadian, which makes re-signing likely)

I don't see how you guys would have rather Marcum for 2 years than Brett for his career?

Money saving or not, I hope we keep this kid and don't flip him. I bet he has a better career than Drabek or JPA.

We don't even know if Lawrie will be a good player in this league. Not every prospect pans out the way you would want them to. I hope to god this is not another Brett Wallace situation. I think Marcum wasn't fully matured as a pitcher, and I was expecting more growth from him in the next 2 years, but AA traded him away. Remember what we did with Carpenter?

This deal should've been made after getting Zack. What if we don't get him? Should I expect a **** starting rotation for the next 2 years?

[mappiah19]

Oh no, Raps fans are starting to spam this board. Lol and I'm pretty sure their knowledge of baseball is microscopic.

The jays board is a good read, please don't spam it.

Peace, I'm out.

[kwamebargnani]

So if we redo our 2013 starting line-up would look something like


Gose-CF
Escobar-2B
Snider-LF
Wells-RF
Lind-DH
JPA-1B
Lawrie-3B
D'Arnaud-C
Hech-SS

SP
Morrow
Romero
Dabek
Cecil
Zep

Closer
Stewart

Not a bad line-up at all if everyone pans out, could also trade JPA for a 1st basemen or sign one in FA, if Wells is gone by then sub in Thames or Moises Sierra, or Jake Maresnik into that last OF spot.

lol @ JPA playing 1st. That's like John Buck playing 1st base which isn't good.

[dagger]

So if we redo our 2013 starting line-up would look something like


Gose-CF
Escobar-2B
Snider-LF
Wells-RF
Lind-DH
JPA-1B
Lawrie-3B
D'Arnaud-C
Hech-SS

SP
Morrow
Romero
Dabek
Cecil
Zep

Closer
Stewart

Not a bad line-up at all if everyone pans out, could also trade JPA for a 1st basemen or sign one in FA, if Wells is gone by then sub in Thames or Moises Sierra, or Jake Maresnik into that last OF spot.

That might be your starting lineup, but it might be 2015 or 2016 before so many rookies mature. None of these position player prospects are at AAA yet. They have two more years minimum in the minors and then all would be rookies in 2013.

[guvernator]

Actually that is one of the reasons. Yanks, Sox, Angels, Dodgers, Cardinals and Cubs (wouldn't include phillies since they are very much a front runner town as well) and mets can spend so much dough because their managements are aware that their is a baseball culture and If they bring in high profile players fans will show up, which will in turn allow the management to continue the spending.
No such correlation has been established in Toronto. When the jays payroll was up to 100 million, attendance was still stuck in the bottom third.

Baseball culture simply doesn't exist in this city to the extent that it does in the major metros in US.

You certainly won't rebuild the baseball culture by not investing in it. Considering how many years the Jays have been out of the playoffs, and how much those "cultured" baseball markets do spend to remain relevant, you can't really blame the fans here for not wanting to stick their toe back in the cold waters.

I'm not asking for the team to be 2011 contenders, or sign someone like Crawford, but I also want to see some signs the Jays aren't going to take a step back from .500 ball in the name of more stockpiling of prospects before I pony up some cash. Just give me a sense that something positive might happen. Otherwise, I'll just set here and read the entrails of the minor league reports and like Rogers, save my money until the team is ready to contend.

I'd like to point out that sometimes, even if you have no intention of contending you can advance your future agenda by using financial clout. The Raptors added $5 million to the payroll to pry Bayless away from New Orleans. The team's payroll is not much less than it was last year, and I applaud that. In effect, we bought a lottery pick for $5 million.

But Rogers doesn't seem as willing to me to spend even up to former levels. If it wants to make a statement about its commitment to winning, but doesn't want to sign a guy like Crawford now because it's premature - and it would be - then scour around for a would-be contender which wants to spend but can't, and take on an albatross contract (a non-productive player earning, say, $7-8 million a year for two more years) and get a good prospect with him. That would be a better way to bulk up than trading good major league players. Maybe you throw in a lesser prospect to ensure the guy you are getting is a true Tier 1 guy.

Yes, we signed a couple of great Latin prospects last year but even adding that to the team's 2010 salary we are well below the team's peak spending level. The plan appears to be reasonable, but with some aggressive spending, it can be accelerated, too. Like the Raps did with Bayless.

1) since 93, jays have had several good teams. They have also had several marquee players (clemens, Doc, delgado). So where is the culture?
2) Regarding willingness to spend, What do you call doling out 10 million on an unknown international FA and Picking up 6 million of Doc's and 4 million of Rolen's salary in trades to get better returns?
3) Please don't put sound management/team building strategy and raptors management in the same sentence.

[youreachiteach]

The key word is consistency.

In 92 and 93, they had the highest payroll in the league. That;s why they won. Yes, they had a great
development team in South America--but that cost money too.

As far as Roger's goes, this is what we have seen from them in terms of their modus operandi:

The Jays spent at least 3-5 years making Ricciardi gut the team to save them money, working on a shoestring budget (so he tries for college players). Given all the money they saved, they finally throw him a bone for two years--so of course he spends like a drunken sailor on injury prone players, the team sucks, and the attendance falls.

Does Roger;s reconsider and start being more consistent with the money to make runs with the best pitcher in baseball? No, theaboy decide to cut bait and, wait for it, save more money again.

Now we're starting all over again w/ the Roger's master plan. But this time, and it is pure genious, there IS NO TIMETABLE! So they can tell people for 6, 7, 8 years about how much progress they are making all the while shoe stringing it until it's "right".

And no, spending money on the LEAST expensive parts of the process doesn't cut it. Sure, they're important, yes they should be investing in it. But I'm not paying to go see the prospects in double a, am I? What about their committment to the major league team (outside of one or two overpaid players?)

Edit: 20 million more, pssh! They should be spending 100 a year. If the Yankees and Red Sox can spend at 250, we should be at one hundred.

[WpgPage]

So if we redo our 2013 starting line-up would look something like


Gose-CF
Escobar-2B
Snider-LF
Wells-RF
Lind-DH
JPA-1B
Lawrie-3B
D'Arnaud-C
Hech-SS

SP
Morrow
Romero
Dabek
Cecil
Zep

Closer
Stewart

Not a bad line-up at all if everyone pans out, could also trade JPA for a 1st basemen or sign one in FA, if Wells is gone by then sub in Thames or Moises Sierra, or Jake Maresnik into that last OF spot.

That might be your starting lineup, but it might be 2015 or 2016 before so many rookies mature. None of these position player prospects are at AAA yet. They have two more years minimum in the minors and then all would be rookies in 2013.

I meant it like how BA does it, its obviously not going to be 100% like that nor do I expect it to be as guys will adjust to higher levels of ball differently and will take longer or shorter to do so. As for JPA playing first that has been suggested several times before and I see no reason why it is not viable. By all accounts JPA has the worst defense of any of our C prospects but the most power. A move to 1st is completely possible and there are numerous examples that I wont bother getting into but the catcher to 1st base position change is one of the most often position changes in baseball.

I would be shocked if we now trade for Grenkie AA made it very clear that he sees Lawrie as a part of the future of the Jays. I really don't understand the post above about having a terrible starting rotation for the next 2 years if we replace Marcum with Drabek the rotation has the potential to actually be much better same if we replace the 5th starter with a effective season of Zep.

I really don't mean to offend anyone please take the time to at least quickly check the facts before posting things that simply make no sense.

[J-Roc]

Some fired up fans in this thread. I guess what Rogers is trying to convince us is they won't go blow dough in free agency, but they'll do it to keep our own talent. So the plan is to build up as much of our own talent as possible, from the ground up.

But then I don't get how the Greinke deal fits in.

[Fairview4Life]

http://deadspin.com/5707799/blue-jays-f ... -infielder
http://www.millerparkdrunk.com/baseball ... d-as-tool/

Apparently BC is the Jersey Shore of Canada.

[J-Roc]

http://www.millerparkdrunk.com/baseball ... d-as-tool/

The tattoo reads:

Success is my only option failure's not
so here I go it's my shot feet fail me not
this may be the only opportunity that I got

Eminem's lyrics read:

Success is my only ****' option, failure's not
Mom, I love you, but this trailer's got to go
I cannot grow old in Salem's lot
So here I go with my shot, feet fail me not
This may be the only opportunity that I got

Apparently the part about growing up in a trailer park doesn't apply to Brett.

Anyways, have fun with this guy Blue Jays fans.

MARCUM! MARCUM! MARCUM!

[flatjacket1]

Kinda shocked that one of our best pitchers is traded away when we aren't a good pitching team in the first place. I really liked Marcum.

Don't understand what AA is tryna do here. We must get Zack to make up for this loss.

We traded an old, 2 years left pitcher for who is now arguably the best prospect on our team with team control for 6 years (and hes Canadian, which makes re-signing likely)

I don't see how you guys would have rather Marcum for 2 years than Brett for his career?

Money saving or not, I hope we keep this kid and don't flip him. I bet he has a better career than Drabek or JPA.

First off, you make it sound like Marcum only has two years of good pitching in him. You don't know that. He could have 5-7 good years. Secondly, there is no sure thing Lawrie makes it to the bigs, and a kid from BC is no sure thing to stay here as an FA - Seattle, for example, is much closer to BC than Toronto. And the weather is much nicer in California.

No, I make it sound like he wants to years after the 2 years of Alb. which he said he wants.
We could wait a year to trade him or let him leave the year after for picks, but I'd rather get a teams best prospect...