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Bring back S.S.O.L.

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Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#1 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:37 am

Common knowledge asserts Seven Seconds or Less died when the Suns traded Marion for Shaq. A 2008 Simmons article, "A requiem for the S.S.O.L. Era in Phoenix," suggests they started giving up sooner:

Nearly everyone regards the Shaq trade as the moment when PHOENIX (capital letters to represent the fact the Suns stood out) turned into Phoenix (lower-case letters, representing the fact that they were now just like any other team), but that's not necessarily true. Already straddling the fence between "run-and-gun Phoenix" and "more-conventional-than-you-think Phoenix," last summer's Grant Hill signing pushed them over the fence and made them hopelessly normal, even if we didn't want to admit it. Great guy, great athlete, phenomenally intelligent player, steal of a signing for the price ... and you could yell "Pull!" every time Hill launches a 3. For a team that revolved around high screens with Nash and Stoudemire, perfectly executed fast breaks and high-percentage 3s, Hill subtly changed what the Suns were. You didn't have to worry about defending him or Marion 25 feet from the basket -- two of the five Suns on the court, by the way -- making it impossible for them to spread the floor on those Nash/Stoudemire high screens.

So what were they? On paper, Hill made up for his long-range shooting faults with defense, leadership and all-around skills ... but did they want to get better defensively? What's the difference between being a D-minus defensively or a plus? Does it really matter? Two years ago, Jack McCallum called his season-in-the-life Suns book "Seven Seconds or Less" because that was their mentality -- they didn't care about getting defensive stops, only about forcing a high-speed tempo and taking high-percentage shots as quickly as possible (especially 3s). One of the great basketball chess matches happened in Round 1 of the '06 playoffs, when the Lakers were determined not to get caught up with Phoenix's breakneck pace, only the Suns kept dangling their high-speed game like a carrot -- "come on, run with us, it will be fun, come on" -- and the Lakers kept fighting them off and slowing things down. Ultimately, they couldn't hold the Suns off. That was the PHOENIX we knew and loved, but that "Seven Seconds or Less" mentality had faded into Bolivian well before the Shaq trade.


Simmons goes on to detail Sarver's numerous miscues over the years, and how Phoenix and S.S.O.L. slowly faded. Pretty interesting article. He claims S.S.O.L. is anti-defense. I disagree. D'Antoni isn't a good defensive coach, and the Suns haven't had good defensive players over the years, but it is possible to play S.S.O.L. and play good defense. Sometimes there are choices made to go small and fast, but that doesn't necessarily equal poor defense. The thing is, S.S.O.L. is incredibly effective. Efficient and brilliantly simple. If you can do it with players who also play good defense, you can win a championship. The Suns never won a championship with Nash-Amar'e, but they lost to exactly two teams in the playoffs over the years: Timmy's Spurs and Gasol's Lakers. Why? Amar'e faced a big who could defend him pretty well and who could score on him at will. Because Amar'e is a horrendous defender.

Look, we're seeing the Knicks starting to thrive in this system again. It's Amar'e, sure, but it's the system. They're playing faster than we are, jacking up more threes than we are (they're leading the league in attempts), and winning more than we are. They're shooting more than us at the rim and within 10 feet; we're shooting more than them between 10 and 23 feet. We have to buy into the system like that again, wholeheartedly.

We saw signs of it last night during that comeback, and it was beautiful.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#2 » by Kerrsed » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:29 am

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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#3 » by Sundamental » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:01 am

Los Soles wrote:Common knowledge asserts Seven Seconds or Less died when the Suns traded Marion for Shaq. A 2008 Simmons article, "A requiem for the S.S.O.L. Era in Phoenix," suggests they started giving up sooner:

Nearly everyone regards the Shaq trade as the moment when PHOENIX (capital letters to represent the fact the Suns stood out) turned into Phoenix (lower-case letters, representing the fact that they were now just like any other team), but that's not necessarily true. Already straddling the fence between "run-and-gun Phoenix" and "more-conventional-than-you-think Phoenix," last summer's Grant Hill signing pushed them over the fence and made them hopelessly normal, even if we didn't want to admit it. Great guy, great athlete, phenomenally intelligent player, steal of a signing for the price ... and you could yell "Pull!" every time Hill launches a 3. For a team that revolved around high screens with Nash and Stoudemire, perfectly executed fast breaks and high-percentage 3s, Hill subtly changed what the Suns were. You didn't have to worry about defending him or Marion 25 feet from the basket -- two of the five Suns on the court, by the way -- making it impossible for them to spread the floor on those Nash/Stoudemire high screens.

So what were they? On paper, Hill made up for his long-range shooting faults with defense, leadership and all-around skills ... but did they want to get better defensively? What's the difference between being a D-minus defensively or a plus? Does it really matter? Two years ago, Jack McCallum called his season-in-the-life Suns book "Seven Seconds or Less" because that was their mentality -- they didn't care about getting defensive stops, only about forcing a high-speed tempo and taking high-percentage shots as quickly as possible (especially 3s). One of the great basketball chess matches happened in Round 1 of the '06 playoffs, when the Lakers were determined not to get caught up with Phoenix's breakneck pace, only the Suns kept dangling their high-speed game like a carrot -- "come on, run with us, it will be fun, come on" -- and the Lakers kept fighting them off and slowing things down. Ultimately, they couldn't hold the Suns off. That was the PHOENIX we knew and loved, but that "Seven Seconds or Less" mentality had faded into Bolivian well before the Shaq trade.


Simmons goes on to detail Sarver's numerous miscues over the years, and how Phoenix and S.S.O.L. slowly faded. Pretty interesting article. He claims S.S.O.L. is anti-defense. I disagree. D'Antoni isn't a good defensive coach, and the Suns haven't had good defensive players over the years, but it is possible to play S.S.O.L. and play good defense. Sometimes there are choices made to go small and fast, but that doesn't necessarily equal poor defense. The thing is, S.S.O.L. is incredibly effective. Efficient and brilliantly simple. If you can do it with players who also play good defense, you can win a championship. The Suns never won a championship with Nash-Amar'e, but they lost to exactly two teams in the playoffs over the years: Timmy's Spurs and Gasol's Lakers. Why? Amar'e faced a big who could defend him pretty well and who could score on him at will. Because Amar'e is a horrendous defender.

Look, we're seeing the Knicks starting to thrive in this system again. It's Amar'e, sure, but it's the system. They're playing faster than we are, jacking up more threes than we are (they're leading the league in attempts), and winning more than we are. They're shooting more than us at the rim and within 10 feet; we're shooting more than them between 10 and 23 feet. We have to buy into the system like that again, wholeheartedly.

We saw signs of it last night during that comeback, and it was beautiful.


It truly was beautiful. I am surprised so few here are excited about it. Think about it. Our second unit played their highly paid starters (for the most part) and we literally blew them out of the water. It gives me goose bumps thinking about it, especially the emotional explosion when we took the lead. I know we didn't win the battle but in my mind we won the war for the season last night. I know our second unit had some great nights last year but this exceeded any I can remember from last year. Sorry to get off topic a bit but you mentioned the beauty of last night and it truly was.

Back to SSOL. Does it work? Well, yes and no. You just have to know who it works and for and who it doesn't. So, who does it work for. Simple really. Teams that shoot better than their opponents. So, should the Suns play this way? Absolutely. After all, I believe we had the second highest three point shooting percentage ever last year and the addition of Turk just makes us that much better. With Nash distributing, possibly the best three point shooting team to ever step on the court.

Now, does it work for NY? The answer here isn't so clear. While they're shoot more threes than us, they have actually reduced the amount they're shooting this year. Last year they shot 2145 threes. This year they're on pace to shoot 2028, about a 5.5% reduction. So, SSOL can't be the only reason for their improvement this year. I'll let you figure out what the real reason is.

Now, having said that SSOL isn't the reason behind their improvement this year, a more interesting question is "Does SSOL help the Knicks". Well, here I think the answer is a pretty clear yes, for the most part. They are eighth in the league in FG % and 15th in threes but threes obviously count for 50% more so they benefit there. So, they should play SSOL against roughly 3/4 of the league. The rest they should slow the ball down.

There is a lot more to consider but I'm not going to go into it here. Some of those would certainly affect some of my analysis above. But I commend you for thinking outside of the box and being open to more ideas than "We need to trade Hedo". If I may suggest a tangential idea that would be interesting to discuss it's this. Why were we so successful in the fourth quarter last night? I don't really believe it was SSOL. I'll offer a link to get the conversation started if you'd like.

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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#4 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:59 am

Sundamental wrote:
Los Soles wrote:We saw signs of it last night during that comeback, and it was beautiful.


It truly was beautiful. I am surprised so few here are excited about it. Think about it. Our second unit played their highly paid starters (for the most part) and we literally blew them out of the water. It gives me goose bumps thinking about it, especially the emotional explosion when we took the lead. I know we didn't win the battle but in my mind we won the war for the season last night. I know our second unit had some great nights last year but this exceeded any I can remember from last year. Sorry to get off topic a bit but you mentioned the beauty of last night and it truly was.

Seriously, I was flipping out. I actually started flipping out in the third quarter: we weren't hitting, but we were getting amazing looks and making stops with small-ball, with Nash, Dragic, Dudley, Childress, and Frye on the court. We haven't been doing that kind of thing, and it completely changed the atmosphere.

Sundamental wrote:Back to SSOL. Does it work? Well, yes and no. You just have to know who it works and for and who it doesn't. So, who does it work for. Simple really. Teams that shoot better than their opponents.

I disagree. It's simply an incredibly efficient offensive system. Sure, you have to have the right pieces. Same with any system. The Knicks haven't had the right pieces with D'Antonti until this year. That doesn't mean they should switch to a less efficient offense when they go up against teams that shoot better than them.

I believe that:
1) The Knicks would be worse offensively under a different system.
2) The Suns would be better offensively under S.S.O.L. I believe we have the personnel to do it, do it well, and play better defense than we did under D'Antoni.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#5 » by Sundamental » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:46 am

I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with since I guess I don't know what SSOL means exactly. If it literally means to shoot quickly (which is what I thought, thus SSOL) then I'll stand by what I said. Now if it's really SSOLPLOT (SSOL plus lots of threes) then yes I agree it is more efficient. I never read the book. Don't know the true definition but we essentially agree.

Now as to the Knicks, sure it helps them against most teams. I said that. But if they try to play that way against a team such as the Suns that play the same way but better, on average they will lose more than they win (all else being equal such as defense). Speeding up the tempo merely allows them to slowly fall farther and farther behind because they shoot a lesser percentage. It's like if I were to have a free throw shooting contest against Steve Nash and I am given the choice of how many shots we will shoot. What is the number of shots I should select? Well, my best chance to beat him is to select one shot. The larger the number the less chance I have for variance to allow me to win. Given such, the Knicks should not play an up tempo game against the Suns. As for the Suns, I'd love for them to play SSOL. Like you, I believe a championship can be won playing that way.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#6 » by Calvin Klein » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:08 pm

We have to stop living in the past, wanting old washed up players back and move on.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#7 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:21 pm

Sundamental wrote:I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with since I guess I don't know what SSOL means exactly. If it literally means to shoot quickly (which is what I thought, thus SSOL) then I'll stand by what I said. Now if it's really SSOLPLOT (SSOL plus lots of threes) then yes I agree it is more efficient. I never read the book. Don't know the true definition but we essentially agree.


Here's Simmons' article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/080501

I think Simmons, Jack McCallum, and other authors have used S.S.O.L. as a nickname for the Suns 2004-2007 totally unique style: basically, D'Antoni's offense. The whole system shocked the NBA. It's aptly named, because the most important, most surprising feature is to shoot quickly. Fastbreak as much as possible, and as soon as there's a good shot, take it instead of trying to continue to work the ball for a better one, as was assumed to be the standard for good basketball. But S.S.O.L. was also:
1) Play fast, even if that goes later into the shot clock. Keep the ball moving quick, trying to get the defense off-balance. It was so different from the deliberate style of pretty much the entire NBA.
2) Key or three.
3) Spread the court with athletes and/or three point shooters. Four out. Slash and shoot threes.
4) Keep It Simple, Stupid: Pick-and-roll and "dribble-ats"
5) No isos.

The 2004-2007 Suns were incredibly efficient on offense, some of the most efficient offensive teams in history. 2005-2006 proved that it could be done without Amar'e. This year, for the first time, we're seeing that it can be done without Nash. The Knicks have been becoming more and more like the old S.S.O.L. Suns, while the Suns have gradually become more and more conventional. I feel like most people on this board are suggesting changes to make us more conventional. I'm advocating for the exact opposite. I think some of the players we have on this team, particularly Frye but also a lot from the bench, make it possible for us to play the best S.S.O.L. basketball we've ever played.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#8 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:22 pm

Calvin Klein wrote:We have to stop living in the past, wanting old washed up players back and move on.

Nobody said anything about wanting old players back.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#9 » by Sundamental » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:33 pm

Los Soles wrote:
Calvin Klein wrote:We have to stop living in the past, wanting old washed up players back and move on.

Nobody said anything about wanting old players back.


Calvin,

I think your jeans are too tight cutting off oxygen to your brain.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#10 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:58 pm

Kerrsed wrote:Image

Kerrsed, I'm trying to figure out what you meant by that post. Was that your way of saying...

1) A whole post filled with...sentences?!? Not just sentences, but analytical sentences. No pictures? No video? No obscure references?!? No Internet slang??? Not even a single smilie? :o :confused: :x :no: :sleep: :-? :cry:
:jawdrop:
2) I'm too A.D.D. to read that much (but I repeat myself?)
3) You got a point, but it's not going to happen
4) I disagree

If it was 3 or 4, would you mind stating why?
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#11 » by YFZblu » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:01 pm

Los Soles wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:Image

Kerrsed, I'm trying to figure out what you meant by that post. Was that your way of saying...

1) A whole post filled with...sentences?!? Not just sentences, but analytical sentences. No pictures? No video? No obscure references?!? No Internet slang??? Not even a single smilie? :o :confused: :x :no: :sleep: :-? :cry:
:jawdrop:
2) I'm too A.D.D. to read that much (but I repeat myself?)
3) You got a point, but it's not going to happen
4) I disagree

If it was 3 or 4, would you mind stating why?


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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#12 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:05 pm

Yeah, I got that part. The question was, why the sarcastic response?
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#13 » by YFZblu » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:12 pm

Los Soles wrote:Yeah, I got that part. The question was, why the sarcastic response?

:lol: Have you not seen Kerrsed post before?

He's a 4chan guy, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong Kerrsed)--That should tell you everything you need to know.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#14 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:23 pm

Los Soles wrote:A whole post filled with...sentences?!? Not just sentences, but analytical sentences. No pictures? No video? No obscure references?!? No Internet slang??? Not even a single smilie? :o :confused: :x :no: :sleep: :-? :cry:
:jawdrop:

Does it sounds like I haven't seen Kerrsed post before? :lol:
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#15 » by YFZblu » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:39 pm

Los Soles wrote:
Los Soles wrote:A whole post filled with...sentences?!? Not just sentences, but analytical sentences. No pictures? No video? No obscure references?!? No Internet slang??? Not even a single smilie? :o :confused: :x :no: :sleep: :-? :cry:
:jawdrop:

Does it sounds like I haven't seen Kerrsed post before? :lol:


:lol: ... I think he's great for this board, and the forum overall especially...But once he's had enough of a topic, he pulls a 4chan
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#16 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:42 pm

Sundamental wrote:Now as to the Knicks, sure it helps them against most teams. I said that. But if they try to play that way against a team such as the Suns that play the same way but better, on average they will lose more than they win (all else being equal such as defense). Speeding up the tempo merely allows them to slowly fall farther and farther behind because they shoot a lesser percentage. It's like if I were to have a free throw shooting contest against Steve Nash and I am given the choice of how many shots we will shoot. What is the number of shots I should select? Well, my best chance to beat him is to select one shot. The larger the number the less chance I have for variance to allow me to win.

You definitely have a logical point. I heard Larry Brown does that kind of thing. That could make a lot of sense in high school or college: a mid-major could use that strategy to knock off a powerhouse in the NCAA tourney. I would definitely do it if I was coaching a smaller, less athletic but fundamentally-sound high school team in the playoffs (oh wait, I have done exactly that).

But I don't think most teams would or should do that in the NBA. Only if the coach is Larry Brown or if a team is desperate in the playoffs. It's basically an admission of inferiority. It's saying: "How can we squeak by this team that's clearly better than us?" Rather than: "Let's play as efficiently as possible, and make the other team play as inefficiently as possible. If they can beat us when we play our game, then we need to get better at playing our game."

My opinion.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#17 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:46 pm

YFZblu wrote:
Los Soles wrote:
Los Soles wrote:A whole post filled with...sentences?!? Not just sentences, but analytical sentences. No pictures? No video? No obscure references?!? No Internet slang??? Not even a single smilie? :o :confused: :x :no: :sleep: :-? :cry:
:jawdrop:

Does it sounds like I haven't seen Kerrsed post before? :lol:


:lol: ... I think he's great for this board, and the forum overall especially...But once he's had enough of a topic, he pulls a 4chan

Totally agree. I think he's great for this forum. :wordyo:

But that still doesn't explain why the original post annoyed him.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#18 » by Calvin Klein » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:26 pm

Los Soles wrote:
Calvin Klein wrote:We have to stop living in the past, wanting old washed up players back and move on.

Nobody said anything about wanting old players back.



I know, but it's a constant in here: wanting Marion, Diaw, Bell, etc back.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#19 » by albasuna » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:05 pm

Seeing Dragic in SSOL would be pure awesomeness, even though he would look so erratic out there.
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Re: Bring back S.S.O.L. 

Post#20 » by JohnVancouver » Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:15 pm

well, we have the bodies for it - why not?

Siler will lose those last few annoying pounds for sure


seriously though - worth a shot
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