Manning playing like garbage

[beantownski]

amazing how manning looks sub par without being surrounded by pro bowlers?!?!?

manning and his happy feet need pro bowlers around him, and a dome to play in to put up REGULAR SEASON stats. he is a choke artist. he won a ring against the weakest sb team i can remember (the bears and grossmans 6 superbowl turnovers)......correction...his running game won that game for him. he wasn't good that whole playoff run. anyways. he's a .500 playoff qb for a reason....he's overrated.

brady in the meantime will continue to show everyone that he has always been the better qb.

[Bleeding Blue]

amazing how manning looks sub par without being surrounded by pro bowlers?!?!?

manning and his happy feet need pro bowlers around him, and a dome to play in to put up REGULAR SEASON stats. he is a choke artist. he won a ring against the weakest sb team i can remember (the bears and grossmans 6 superbowl turnovers)......correction...his running game won that game for him. he wasn't good that whole playoff run. anyways. he's a .500 playoff qb for a reason....he's overrated.

brady in the meantime will continue to show everyone that he has always been the better qb.

Oddly enough Peyton has a high QB rating in the playoffs than Brady. Manning: 87.6 Brady: 85.5.

[Elway=GOAT]

He dosent have all world talent around him, like he has for most of his career that made him look better than he is. I guess he cant turn **** to gold like apologists like to claim. Its funny though, the growing trend. He gets all the credit when he wins, but when he litterally is throwing games away its not his fault. Its because he has no talent around him..

Lol, you've been waiting like 13 years for this moment huh? hahaha

Anyway, he had mediocre talent last year too. PoS runners, one great receiver, one really good but overvalued TE, and a garbage line, and he had 14 wins, an MVP, and a superbowl appearance.

Brees was playing like garbage this season too, **** happens mang.

As "bad" as Manning has been, with garbage talent around him, he's still going to end the season with way more TD's, yards, and a way better completion % than Elway could muster in his very best seasons that he gets slobbed on for.

I have been saying that forever, nobody outside of Aikman has had the luxory of playing with the amount of offensive talent that Manning has consistantly throughout a career. Thats a fact. This isnt new, I havent been waiting for anything. I am not surprised that he hasnt looked like this alleged regular season goat without all the people he allegedly made good.

In terms of Elway, you are the biggest hater I have ever seen. I dont know if you are that uneducated and didnt see him play or you just like to troll me. Or both, but here are facts. You cant really compare Mannings seasons to Elway, because this is an era where QB passing yards/td's/%'s and rating are highly inflated. Which makes me think like I said you are either uneducated or trolling. This is a league that makes Matt Cassell look like a hall of famer if you compare what he is doing to what the norm was for the 80's.

Manning was averaging 18 picks a year, before they chaged the rules in 2004. Obviously his numbers which were good before the change, have been severely inflated such as everyone elses.

You are clearly wrong about Elway, period. No player in history has put a team on his back the way Elway did in the ultimate team sport.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...987_roster.htm <---worst superbowl team ever, the only great player/hall of famer is elway. No 1000 yard receiver or rusher. No other hall of famer had to deal with tha adversity.

Elway was MVP this year.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm<--- more of the same. No thousand yard rush or reciever but make it through the playoffs in the cold to the superbowl.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... n/1990.htm<--- finallys Bobby humphires gets 1000 yards.

Those are the teams he took to the superbowl.

Later in his career where he had real talent around him, he won 2 superbowls obviously, including the walk off superbowl mvp real Michael Jordan style.

You dont like his numbers?

Under Reeves: comp % 54.4 yards: 3021.6 avg yards 7.0 td's 15.8 int's 15.7 72.9 rating

Now whats intresting is when he got to play under a modern offensive system, the west coast offense. Something Montana and almost every QB nowdays has the luxory of playing under. This started under Wade Phillips.

comp 60% yards 3543.2 avg gain 7.4 23.8 td's 11.5 int 89.1 rating

One has to think, if you are a numbers person which most of us are, how would his numbers look if he played under this style of offense that made Montana great and almost every modern day QB gets to play under in the prime of his career.. especially being the duel threat(for that time) that he was, and had talent around him in his early days like most of the other greats did.

You are wrong sir. Elway is the best ever, never played with hall of fame caliber talent untill his ladder years, didnt play in a conventional offense untill his latter years. 5 superbowls, 2 win 1 mvp. The Broncos have 4 memebers in the hall of fame. In their entire history 4.

Flloyd little who didnt play with John.

Zimmerman came in 93, still good an allpro but past his prime.. and TD in 95.

No player has impacted a franchise, on and off the field the way Elway did for the Broncos. He is the goat.

Even if you dont believe he is the goat, which is fine.. I have provided enough proof that shows he was more than the overrated bum you try and make him out to be.

[Elway=GOAT]

amazing how manning looks sub par without being surrounded by pro bowlers?!?!?
manning and his happy feet need pro bowlers around him, and a dome to play in to put up REGULAR SEASON stats. he is a choke artist. he won a ring against the weakest sb team i can remember (the bears and grossmans 6 superbowl turnovers)......correction...his running game won that game for him. he wasn't good that whole playoff run. anyways. he's a .500 playoff qb for a reason....he's overrated.
brady in the meantime will continue to show everyone that he has always been the better qb.

Oddly enough Peyton has a high QB rating in the playoffs than Brady. Manning: 87.6 Brady: 85.5.

One plays in the cold, one plays in the dome. Also if you look at the more important stats int% Brady is better. Cold hard football facts showed a stat that each INT in the playoffs decreases a teams chance to win by 20%. Brady has been consistant, while Manning has lit up a few AFC West teams and has looked down right bad against almost any good defensive team.

5 different years Manning has saved his worst game of the year for the playoffs.
As you can see he lit up some bad defense, Denver and KC and his looked mostly meh to everyone else.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... ayoffs.htm

The chargers game he threw a key pick with time winding down, the next year they failed to convert on a 3rd and 1 then a 4th and 1. Despite the numbers.

The superbowl, down 7, they decided to throw 9 straight times out of the shotgun before the famous pick 6 that lost the game, even though their run games was effective.

Also as you can see, it wasnt like the defense was getting lit up, the defense has played decent its the offense that shis the bad..

Now Brady

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... ayoffs.htm

Brady has had a few bad playoff performances, but nowhere near as bad as Mannings. You add into the fact he plays in the cold instead of a nice comfy dome and shows up typically against the Steelers ill take Brady.

Also and intresting stat, for people who constantly wanna blame the defense. for the Colts troubles.

PPG per loss.
Colts 14
Pats 18

A more important stat: Super bowl rating

Brady 100/156 1001 yards 7 td's 1 int rating of 94.5 td/int ratio 7:1 super bowls 3-1

Manning 56/83 580 2 td's 2 ints rating of 85.4 td/int ratio 1:1 super bowls 1-1

Manning overall had more offensive talent around him as well. Brady played his first 3 before the rule changes, which shows you how dominate hes been.

[Elway=GOAT]

These are from about a month ago, so the numbers have changed but not the total outcome.

A quick addition about the dome effect Tom Brady (outdoors career)= 93.06 rating. (4055 attempts)
Tom Brady (indoors career)= 99.13 rating. (400 attempts)
Tom Brady (total career)= 93.61 rating.

Peyton Manning (outdoors career)= 90.65 rating (3422 attempts)
Peyton Manning (indoors career)= 99.77 rating (3460 attempts)
Peyton Manning (total career)= 95.24 rating

Tom Brady with Equal Opportunity Peyton Manning has passed 3460 of his 6882 attempts in a dome (50.27%).
Let’s see where Brady would stand if given that same chance.
Brady has 4455 career attempts.
50.27% of that is 2239 attempts.
Here are Tom Brady’s numbers with 2239 indoor attempts and 2216 outdoor attempts.

Outdoor (before adjustment)= 2558-4055, 29265, 214, 90
Outdoor (after adjustment)= 1398-2216, 15993, 117, 49
Indoor (before adjustment)= 267-400, 3277, 25, 13
Indoor (after adjustment)= 1494-2239, 18343, 140, 73

Adjusted Numbers= 2892-4455, 34336, 257, 122
Quarterback Rating= 96.1

That 96.1 rating would be higher than the 95.2 rating Manning has for his career.

Peyton Manning with Equal Opportunity Tom Brady has passed 4055 of his 4455 attempts (91%) outdoors.
Let’s adjust Manning’s numbers to if he played like Brady does.

Manning with 9% indoors and 91% outdoors.
Indoors (before)= 2259-3460, 27324, 219, 89
Indoors (after)= 405-620, 4896, 39, 16
Outdoors (before)= 2201-3422, 25282, 163, 96
Outdoors (after)= 4004-6262, 46264, 298, 175

Adjusted Numbers= 4409-6882, 51160, 337, 191
Quarterback Rating= 91.2

[Dirty Water]

I'm a huge Patriots' fan and obviously as a homer I'd pick Brady, but you can argue either case. Brady has had less talent surrounding him on offense (Except the Moss years) but won SBs cause of his talented defense behind him. Manning has been helped by a Pro Bowl offense in years past and a weak but opportunistic D. So, they win in different ways.

[Elway=GOAT]

I'm a huge Patriots' fan and obviously as a homer I'd pick Brady, but you can argue either case. Brady has had less talent surrounding him on offense (Except the Moss years) but won SBs cause of his talented defense behind him. Manning has been helped by a Pro Bowl offense in years past and a weak but opportunistic D. So, they win in different ways.

The defense while good, was hardly world beaters, and from a statistical yardage/turnovers/scoring allowed 2004 is the only one who cracks the top 10 of the decade. As I have shown you, Brady turns the ball over less in the playoffs, along with having a way less chance of not showing up unlike Manning. But to the defensive point.

Manning fans cry “look at Brady’s defense” every time someone mentions New England’s superior teams and Super Bowl championships in recent years. The heartless Cold, Hard Football Facts are here to extract a few more tears.

Brady certainly has the support of a better defense than Manning. But they have hardly been suffocating defenses like those that have carried certain other teams to Super Bowl championships. In fact, New England’s 2001 defensive unit ranked just 24th in total defense, making it the lowest rated defense ever to win a Super Bowl. The 2001 unit did rank sixth in scoring defense, surrendering 17.0 points per game. But 31 of the 39 teams to win a Super Bowl had a better scoring defense that the one Brady played with in 2001.

New England’s 2003 defense was markedly better. It ranked sixth in total defense and No. 1 in scoring defense, surrendering 14.9 points per game. That puts New England’s 2003 unit smack-dab in the middle of the championship pack: 18 Super Bowl winners boasted a better scoring defense than the 2003 Patriots.

Something you may find interesting..

Meanwhile, Indy has had at least one Super Bowl caliber defense during the Manning era. In 2002, the Colts fielded a defensive unit that ranked 7th in scoring and 8th in total defense. It was, in other words, a unit that was statistically superior to New England’s 2001 Super Bowl winning defense, which ranked 6th in scoring and 24th in total defense – which, as we mentioned, was the lowest rated defense ever to win a Super Bowl.

You know how Manning took advantage of that? By having the worst performance of his career against the Jets.

14-31 137 yards 0 td's 2 int's and a rating of 31.2

By the way from the same article, which I find interesting.

Brady has built his prolific career with a much different set of tools. Consider that he’s New England’s only offensive player to be named to the Pro Bowl since 2001 (New England running back Corey Dillon appeared in the 2004 Pro Bowl, but only as an injury replacement). Brady’s top receiver has been Troy Brown, an NFL journeyman who was drafted in the 8th round (198th pick) out of Marshall. Meanwhile, consider the pedigree of the players on the receiving end of Brady’s six Super Bowl touchdown passes:

* Deion Branch (a second-round draft pick from Louisville)
* David Givens (a seventh-round pick from Notre Dame)
* David Patten (an undrafted free agent from Western Carolina) and
* Mike Vrabel (a journeyman NFL linebacker).

New England’s offensive line in 2004 featured a second-round draft pick (Matt Light), two fifth rounders (Dan Koppen and Russ Hochstein), a seventh-round pick (Brandon Gorin) and three undrafted free agents (Stephen Neal, Joe Andruzzi and Tom Ashworth). In 2005, New England’s offensive line will finally future a first-round draft pick, guard Logan Mankins, who’s likely to fill the starting spot left by Andruzzi.

Most successful quarterbacks, meanwhile, depend upon a punishing ground game to open up the passing lanes for them. But

* the 2001 Patriots won the Super Bowl with the league’s 13th ranked ground attack.
* the 2003 Patriots had the 27th ranked ground attack, the lowest ranked rushing attack of any Super Bowl champion.
* the 2003 Patriots averaged just 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. Among all Super Bowl champions, only the 1970 Colts (3.3 yards per carry) had a more ineffective ground game.

[Dirty Water]

LOL you don't have to give me or the rest of the forum the skinny on what the Patriots have done the last decade. As a Pats fan I've been at some of those games at Gillete.

[CentralQB5]

can many of you finally get off the MANNING BANDWAGON, and ultimately realize that JOHN ELWAY is thee greatest QB in the history of the game? lets all finally put it to rest, peyton manning is an excellent QB in this league. but nowhere near the alltime greatness of a guy like elway.

are you serious?

[Bleeding Blue]

Elway,

This is a "manning playing like garbage" thread, not a "let me post things from another thread again in this thread, thread." Brady has nothing to do with Manning "playing like crap" so post your comparisons in the thread that is already dedicated to comparing Manning to other QB's. And no, this isnt me saying you win, this is me saying quit derailing the thread.

[Elway=GOAT]

LOL you don't have to give me or the rest of the forum the skinny on what the Patriots have done the last decade. As a Pats fan I've been at some of those games at Gillete.

I wasnt, I was providing the facts on the the statstical differences between Manning and Brady, and the two defenses. There was just as much Colts info as Pats info. I was responding to you by implying the Pats were carrier by a dominate defense, and I gave you Stats on the Colts offense and Manning in particular choking, that is hardly giving you a breakdown of the Patriots.. It was more showing the ignorants you have of Manning and the Colts in the playoffs. I dont care if you went to games, and I am not questioning your pats knowlege, but maybe I should with statments like:

Brady has had less talent surrounding him on offense (Except the Moss years) but won SBs cause of his talented defense behind him

Implying he was carried, maybe you needed facts to help your personal opinions from clouding reality. Also, if you dont like facts, or my posts, dont read them.

[Elway=GOAT]

Elway,

This is a "manning playing like garbage" thread, not a "let me post things from another thread again in this thread, thread." Brady has nothing to do with Manning "playing like crap" so post your comparisons in the thread that is already dedicated to comparing Manning to other QB's. And no, this isnt me saying you win, this is me saying quit derailing the thread.

Wait, I am derailing? I was responding to YOU making a comparison to Brady.. How am derailing, if you brought it up in the first place? The facts I gave apply here just as much as the other thread with you making the comparison. If I was really here to derail, I would of brought Brady or whoever else up in the 2nd post of this thread. I was simply responding to the misleading stat you like to throw out.

As I said to the poster above, if you dont like my facts, dont read them. I can care less. Dont accuse me of something you are more guilty of though.

[SSUBluesman]

He dosent have all world talent around him, like he has for most of his career that made him look better than he is. I guess he cant turn **** to gold like apologists like to claim. Its funny though, the growing trend. He gets all the credit when he wins, but when he litterally is throwing games away its not his fault. Its because he has no talent around him..

You mean like how you give Elway props for carrying horrible teams in the "ultimate team game" while overlooking his failure to actually win a SB until he actually had all-world talent around him like TD?

For someone who hates when other people make excuses and provide intellectually dishonest arguments you sure do like to make excuses and provide intellectually dishonest arguments.

[Elway=GOAT]

He dosent have all world talent around him, like he has for most of his career that made him look better than he is. I guess he cant turn **** to gold like apologists like to claim. Its funny though, the growing trend. He gets all the credit when he wins, but when he litterally is throwing games away its not his fault. Its because he has no talent around him..

You mean like how you give Elway props for carrying horrible teams in the "ultimate team game" while overlooking his failure to actually win a SB until he actually had all-world talent around him like TD?

For someone who hates when other people make excuses and provide intellectually dishonest arguments you sure do like to make excuses and provide intellectually dishonest arguments.

Its not an intellectually dishonest argument. They are two completely different situations. Nothing I have posted is intellectually hishonest. If you wanna take a cheap shot and run go ahead, but atleast come at me with facts.

Manning has had more offensive talent around him as compared to anyone in NFL history except for a handful of players. All the players throughout his career, who were only good because of him according to apologists are either retiring or injured. Manning has had the worst season of his career since the rule changes.

Its always been, Manning makes these guys good, even though a large chunk of his skill players and offensive talent were top 1-3 rnd picks. Now that players are hurt, its because he has no help. But if he made all these players great in first place, why would it matter? Why not just put anyone around him and work on a defense?

Even the talent he has now as better than alot of teams in the league. The excuses are sickening. For both Mannings to be honest. Atleast if you are going to make an excuse for the guy come at me with something outside of he has nobody around him. I want substance behind it, and nobody can give it to me.

[Dirty Water]

Didn't mean to come off as Brady was carried by his defense. But you can't argue that Pats didn't have a great D - front 7 during those years Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Ted Washington on the line with Vrabel, Bruschi, and Roman Phifer at LB... not to mention Rodney Harrison and Ty Law in the secondary.

That right there is 7 or 8 guys who were Pro Bowl caliber if not a step below... Pats only Pro Bowl caliber guy on the defense now is Wilfork, and maybe arguably rookie Devin McCourty

[Bleeding Blue]

Elway,

This is a "manning playing like garbage" thread, not a "let me post things from another thread again in this thread, thread." Brady has nothing to do with Manning "playing like crap" so post your comparisons in the thread that is already dedicated to comparing Manning to other QB's. And no, this isnt me saying you win, this is me saying quit derailing the thread.

Wait, I am derailing? I was responding to YOU making a comparison to Brady.. How am derailing, if you brought it up in the first place? The facts I gave apply here just as much as the other thread with you making the comparison. If I was really here to derail, I would of brought Brady or whoever else up in the 2nd post of this thread. I was simply responding to the misleading stat you like to throw out.

As I said to the poster above, if you dont like my facts, dont read them. I can care less. Dont accuse me of something you are more guilty of though.

If you go back and read I was talking purely manning for multiple posts disregarding the Brady comments and then I made a brief comment to get off the Brady talk that someone else started. Then you came in and decided to turn the whole topic into a Brady/Manning argument with paragraph long copy and pasted stats that have been pasted over and over.