Official Countdown Grunfeld Era-2nd SuperStar?

[Induveca]

Also, I do think it's time to dump Grunfeld.

One thing the lockout may do for us is allow for some major changes in the front office. Leonsis if anything will probably force his staff into research mode during that period. So I suspect Grunfeld could be axed in the name of progress/change/new chapter.

Let's hope so, he's done a decent job......but change is likely a good thing at this point. He had his 6 years and has nothing to show for it.

[JonathanJoseph]

3) That the critics continue to point to the Miller/Foye trade is actually proof of how solid Grunfeld is as a GM.

Perhaps I should have phrased better. If the argument against a GM is ONE glaring mistake, the GM is doing a pretty good job. Every GM has at least 1 bad deal and on balance, EG has made a number of very successful transactions during his time with the Wiz with the Miller/Foye trade looking like the standout exception.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

One glaring mistake? The mother of all mistakes happened when injured Gil was given 156Mil. Maybe that was Abe's wish. I posted many times before that deal that Arenas opted out after a bad, injury-plagued season. Said he wasn't healthy and that his body might be breaking down. Said it was foolhardy to tie that much money over an injured player. I said let both Arenas and Jamison walk since neither played good defense. EG signed both. Years of losing later he ends up giving Haywood away for nothing while being stuck with Gil's deal for a long time.

Ernie hasn't done poorly post-Abe IMO. However, he's made some bad decisions in the past.

[Dat2U]

One glaring mistake? More like Ernie's clusterfu*ck. The whole 'one big mistake means your a good GM' shtick is a new on me. I hadn't heard that before. You reach any harder and you'll be pulling some ligaments there buddy.

CCJ, Ernie may not have done horrible post-Abe, but I don't think he's been all that great either. Yi was terrible move. Armstrong is worthless. Ernie waxed poetic about adding a veteran influence in the backcourt to help Wall but he totally ignored adding that veteran influence in the front court with guys who probably needed it more. When Blatche is your front court leader, that should tell you your in trouble. And Hinrich isn't such a great fit stylistically with the current roster. Time will only tell with Seraphin & Booker.

I just think things would have been so much worse had we landed Wes Johnson or Al-Farouq Aminu instead of John Wall and I suspect the optimism around the direction were going in with Flip & Ernie would not be nearly as strong as it is now.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Ernie's "successful" transactions have led to exactly one first round playoff advancement and no second round wins, with only one second round appearance.

[JonathanJoseph]

One glaring mistake? The mother of all mistakes happened when injured Gil was given 156Mil. Maybe that was Abe's wish. I posted many times before that deal that Arenas opted out after a bad, injury-plagued season. Said he wasn't healthy and that his body might be breaking down. Said it was foolhardy to tie that much money over an injured player. I said let both Arenas and Jamison walk since neither played good defense. EG signed both. Years of losing later he ends up giving Haywood away for nothing while being stuck with Gil's deal for a long time.

Ernie hasn't done poorly post-Abe IMO. However, he's made some bad decisions in the past.

Sorry, but knee injury or not, it's beyond absurd to suggest a 26 year old's body is breaking down. NBA players do not hit their primes until closer to 30. It's the same knee injury that Jason Kidd and Amare and others have come back from just fine, so sorry but that hindsight claim holds no validity.

I would actually, on second thought, agree that the Jamison extention was a mistake, but that was likely on Abe and he since got rid of it.

[JonathanJoseph]

Ernie's "successful" transactions have led to exactly one first round playoff advancement and no second round wins, with only one second round appearance.

Do you think injuries were at all a factor?

[JonathanJoseph]

And I'm sure this is appropriate for various different threads, but this stuff is way beyond ridiculous.

The Wizards (6-16) will likely need more of that spectacular version of Young as they host the two-time defending champion Lakers on Tuesday at Verizon Center. They could possibly be without their three top scorers, with Andray Blatche out because of swelling in his left knee, John Wall "very questionable" with soreness in his right knee and Gilbert Arenas probable after missing practice on Monday with what the team has referred to as "general soreness."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121305936.html

WTF IS GOING ON HERE? This has been going on for years. No other teams have had anywhere close to the number of consistently injured players as the Wiz.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

One glaring mistake? More like Ernie's clusterfu*ck. The whole 'one big mistake means your a good GM' shtick is a new on me. I hadn't heard that before. You reach any harder and you'll be pulling some ligaments there buddy.

CCJ, Ernie may not have done horrible post-Abe, but I don't think he's been all that great either. Yi was terrible move. Armstrong is worthless. Ernie waxed poetic about adding a veteran influence in the backcourt to help Wall but he totally ignored adding that veteran influence in the front court with guys who probably needed it more. When Blatche is your front court leader, that should tell you your in trouble. And Hinrich isn't such a great fit stylistically with the current roster. Time will only tell with Seraphin & Booker.

I just think things would have been so much worse had we landed Wes Johnson or Al-Farouq Aminu instead of John Wall and I suspect the optimism around the direction were going in with Flip & Ernie would not be nearly as strong as it is now.

Dat, I just want Flip's head before EGs. You aren't lying about EG. You are on point. Singleton provided the toughness and leadership the frontcourt needed. I don't think EG valued his contribution at all. As you say, Dat, there's a leadership void in the frontcourt.

I like EG selecting Seraphin and Booker for toughness and athleticism but he surely drafted Booker too high, and I don't like the price of Hinrich's contract being added to Seraphin NOW that it's obvious Kirk's leadership isn't helping this team win diddly. I think Booker would fit stylistically for another coach that wasn't all about the jump shot and execution. Right now I'm not mad at EG because Booker has finally played with some toughness, urgency, and he's begun to score inside. Seraphin seems like he's tough on defense. Time will tell.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

One glaring mistake? The mother of all mistakes happened when injured Gil was given 156Mil. Maybe that was Abe's wish. I posted many times before that deal that Arenas opted out after a bad, injury-plagued season. Said he wasn't healthy and that his body might be breaking down. Said it was foolhardy to tie that much money over an injured player. I said let both Arenas and Jamison walk since neither played good defense. EG signed both. Years of losing later he ends up giving Haywood away for nothing while being stuck with Gil's deal for a long time.

Sorry, but knee injury or not, it's beyond absurd to suggest a 26 year old's body is breaking down. NBA players do not hit their primes until closer to 30. It's the same knee injury that Jason Kidd and Amare and others have come back from just fine, so sorry but that hindsight claim holds no validity.
I would actually, on second thought, agree that the Jamison extention was a mistake, but that was likely on Abe and he since got rid of it.

Hindsight? JJ I didn't know you in 2007 but I said then Gil might be chronically injured, that I feared his body might be breaking down -- in 2007. I said resigning Gil was a HUGE RISK and one I wouldn't take if I were in EG's position. I predicted Gil's body might be breaking down THEN.

The season before Gil resigned the Wizards made the playoffs pretty much without Gil. Gil came back, obviously still hurting, and the team got eliminated with him in the lineup in round one of the playoffs. I said then after he opted out that the reason he did so was for longterm security in light of his injuries and the possibility and even the likelihood his body was breaking down.

I'm saying the same thing over 3 years later. I would have let him and Jamison walk before giving him the deal he got. Gil's deal could have been for 95-105 Mil (nate figured that out then). That range I liked. Him being offered the max and settling on 111MIl on the condition Jamison got 56Mil was in my mind tantamount to extortion, coming from an injured player.

I was happy for Gil and couldn't blame him for looking out wisely for his future. No hating involved. Just thought then and now EG screwed the Wizards future big time. I said then the team would be up against the cap and in dire straights should Gil never be the same.

Bottom line is the worst-case happened.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

And I'm sure this is appropriate for various different threads, but this stuff is way beyond ridiculous.

The Wizards (6-16) will likely need more of that spectacular version of Young as they host the two-time defending champion Lakers on Tuesday at Verizon Center. They could possibly be without their three top scorers, with Andray Blatche out because of swelling in his left knee, John Wall "very questionable" with soreness in his right knee and Gilbert Arenas probable after missing practice on Monday with what the team has referred to as "general soreness."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/13/AR2010121305936.html

WTF IS GOING ON HERE? This has been going on for years. No other teams have had anywhere close to the number of consistently injured players as the Wiz.

Part of it could be this team absolutely sucks and the team is going nowhere fast.

[willbcocks]

Firing Flip before EG would be a mistake, even if you think that Flip is doing a worse job (which I personally don't). That would mean hiring the new coach would be EG's responsibility, and if we were to get a new GM, he would be stuck inheriting the old regime. Alternatively, a provisional coach would probably be a bad idea for our not-so-serious personnel.

[nate33]

Amare and others have come back from just fine, so sorry but that hindsight claim holds no validity.

CCJ hasn't been right about everything, but it's absolutely true that he was against resigning Arenas to a large contract. He repeatedly warned us in his usual, persistent, annoying manner.

[JonathanJoseph]

Amare and others have come back from just fine, so sorry but that hindsight claim holds no validity.

CCJ hasn't been right about everything, but it's absolutely true that he was against resigning Arenas to a large contract. He repeatedly warned us in his usual, persistent, annoying manner.

I'm not suggesting he didn't say it beforehand and that it didn't work out that way, but that doesn't change the point.

Betting that a 26 year old with a routine injury history will be "breaking down" without the benefit of a medical evaluation is just a random guess that flies in the face of the odds.

Now, if you wanted to bet that ALL Wizards are likely to be injury prone, thanks to this ridiculous medical staff, that would be another story. That would be a suggestion based on many data points.

[JonathanJoseph]

Hindsight? JJ I didn't know you in 2007 but I said then Gil might be chronically injured, that I feared his body might be breaking down -- in 2007. I said resigning Gil was a HUGE RISK and one I wouldn't take if I were in EG's position. I predicted Gil's body might be breaking down THEN.

The season before Gil resigned the Wizards made the playoffs pretty much without Gil. Gil came back, obviously still hurting, and the team got eliminated with him in the lineup in round one of the playoffs. I said then after he opted out that the reason he did so was for longterm security in light of his injuries and the possibility and even the likelihood his body was breaking down.

I'm saying the same thing over 3 years later. I would have let him and Jamison walk before giving him the deal he got. Gil's deal could have been for 95-105 Mil (nate figured that out then). That range I liked. Him being offered the max and settling on 111MIl on the condition Jamison got 56Mil was in my mind tantamount to extortion, coming from an injured player.

I was happy for Gil and couldn't blame him for looking out wisely for his future. No hating involved. Just thought then and now EG screwed the Wizards future big time. I said then the team would be up against the cap and in dire straights should Gil never be the same.

Bottom line is the worst-case happened.

There are a few parts of this that don't fly, beyond the fact that betting on injuries is just guessing:

1) There is very little practical difference between the 95-105 numbers and the 111 Arenas ended up getting. Either way, it was a "franchise" level commitment.

2) Letting Jamison or Arenas walk were simply not viable options with an owner nearing death and wanting to make one last run.

3) You say the "worst case scenario" has happened because:

the team would be up against the cap and in dire straights should Gil never be the same.

While the Arenas injury issue seems to be somewhat out of anyone's hands, the other part of your statement just isn't true. The Wizards are NOT in any way "up against the cap" in the short OR long term.

I concede that the Jamison extension was a "mistake" for Grunfeld (even though there was a Pollin factor) but that mistake was quickly rectified in a trade that came at no cost and came with a pick (which became Booker) and a prospect (Thornton).

[LyricalRico]

I concede that the Jamison extension was a "mistake" for Grunfeld (even though there was a Pollin factor) but that mistake was quickly rectified in a trade that came at no cost and came with a pick (which became Booker) and a prospect (Thornton).

Ernie did what he was told by his boss (Abe) when it came to signing Jamison, and once he had the opportunity he dealt Jamison for young prospects. I don't have a problem with any of that.

I also agree with the points above that there was no way the Wiz could have let Arenas walk. Was it a risk? Yes. But it was a risk they had to take because they wouldn't have otherwise had any significant cap room to acquire another star. In other words, they couldn't have taken that $111M and given it to somebody else because they didn't have enough actual cap space. It was either take a chance on Gil or go immediately to the gutter.

And it really was a no-win for the Wizards franchise. If they were to pay Gil but he didn't pan out, they'd be called stupid for giving him the money. If they let him walk and he got healthy somewhere else, they'd be called cheap for NOT giving him the money. They only way the Wiz would win would be if the paid Gil and he lived up to the contract. So they took the chance. Again, I have no problems with that. It just happened to not work out.

Go Wiz!

[closg00]

Even if the blame the dead guy excuse were to be accepted as truth, it was Grunfeld who structured the deals and both were horrible deals which did little to protect the organization. Gilbert holds the opt-out card, not he org. Jamison was paid an absurd amount for a player his age. Again, it was Ernie who structured the deal with zero fall-back for the org. We were lucky a GM more desperate than Ernie, was foolish-enough to take-on AJ's contract.

[AlohaWiz]

Ernie's "successful" transactions have led to exactly one first round playoff advancement and no second round wins, with only one second round appearance.

Do you think injuries were at all a factor?

In an article discussing Jarvis Hayes' knee injuries, EG said:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01066.html

When asked about the decision not to have surgery initially, Grunfeld said: "That was the advice we had from our medical staff, and we don't second-guess that. At the time, it was a very uncommon thing to have happen again."

Do you think the GM's failure to exercise due diligence by getting a second opinion was at all a factor in the many injuries?

[closg00]

DAGGER! Aloha.

[JonathanJoseph]

Ernie's "successful" transactions have led to exactly one first round playoff advancement and no second round wins, with only one second round appearance.

Do you think injuries were at all a factor?

In an article discussing Jarvis Hayes' knee injuries, EG said:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01066.html

When asked about the decision not to have surgery initially, Grunfeld said: "That was the advice we had from our medical staff, and we don't second-guess that. At the time, it was a very uncommon thing to have happen again."

Do you think the GM's failure to exercise due diligence by getting a second opinion was at all a factor in the many injuries?

I don't know what other teams do, but I was under the impression that the reason you have your own doctors is so that you can get a medical opinion you can trust. Do the Suns get second opinions when they sign players?

Either way, the list of players who haven't been healthy in Washington is long and if it isn't a problem with the in house medical staff then it's certainly an example of a cursed franchise rather than a systemic failure to do diligence.