[Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for NYK! Part 5

[Fury]

So what do we do?

Option 1- Trade for Melo, Resign Wilson Chandler and get a Center.. But we will most likely lose a combination of Gallo,Fields, and/or 1st round picks

Option 2- Wait for Melo to become a FA, lose wilson chandler to free agency and not able to sign a center, but keep gallo,fields, and/or 1st round picks.

We're not trading both Gallo and Fields, or both Chandler and Fields. Denver can suck it if they want two of those players. The most I'd offer is Anthony Randolph anyway.

[KnickFan33]

I'm just trying to say adding more offense isn't necessarily the answer. The pieces of the puzzle have to fit together.

We used to have a team full of offensive threats. Marbury, Crawford, Zach, Curry, Francis... What happened then? I'm pretty sure D'antoni couldn't have made that work.

We need smart players, not scorers.

[CHARLYMURPHY]

I'm just trying to say adding more offense isn't necessarily the answer. The pieces of the puzzle have to fit together.

We used to have a team full of offensive threats. Marbury, Crawford, Zach, Curry, Francis... What happened then? I'm pretty sure D'antoni couldn't have made that work.

We need smart players, not scorers.

[DishAndSwish]

I'm not understanding the hype for Anthony. Chandler is bringing everything that Melo would bring at this point, and he's playing within the offense.

Bringing Melo in via trade is only going to amplify the problems we already have.

You can't be serious. The only thing that Wilson arguably does better than Melo is defense. With or without Melo, the Knicks are going to never be a good defensive team. If Dantoni's strategy is to simply outscore opponents, how can anyone argue that Melo doesn't fit within this system? As someone else has pointed out, this is exactly like the Lee versus Amare debates. Anyone who thinks Chandler is as good as Melo has never seen Melo play.

Seriously? Melo has to fundamentally change his mindset on offense in order for this to work. Yes MD's strategy is to outscore opponents. But how? With ball movement. If you watched the game vs. Denver, the ball stops when in his hands.

If our offense stagnates, how do you think that's going to affect everybody else's game?

And Chandler is such a great ball mover? 1.7 assists per game is a great ball mover? Despite Melo's supposed reputation for being a ball hog, he averages over 3 assists per game. That's more than Chandler, more than Gallo, more than Fields. And the only person he really has to pass the ball to a consistent basis is Nene, who is nowhere close to the offensive talent that Amare is. In terms of Melo's play against the Knicks on Sunday -- let's say that one game is a sufficient sample of Melo's overall game. How do you know the lack of ball movement was Melo's fault, as opposed to perhaps Karl running ISO plays for Melo? What makes you think under Dantoni's system, that Melo won't be able to move the ball?

[K_ick_God]

I rather not trade Chandler or Gallo for Melo but I do think he would excel in this system. In the Olympics he was better at making quick decisions and taking better shots. Look at the difference in Joe Johnson when he is in Atlanta compared to Phoenix where he wasn't that iso player. But I do believe Anthony would play PF.

I think Melo will do well in NY. I really like how Wilson is developing though, at only 23. But I wonder if his contract being up factors in to his very good season so far. I would hate to keep Wilson, pay him Deng money, and then have him become Deng as far as impact. Deng is a good player but overpriced and did not develop beyond a good player as I think they thought he would. That's my concern with Wilson. That and he is not a pure shooter.

Melo would do well in NY though, I'm not worried about that really. And I look at his low 3PT% as a positive in a way because we don't need to be shooting an abundance of 3's.

I'd rather give up Gallo than Wilson which means we'd lose even more 3-point shooting but that's okay by me. I do think that MD probably has a problem with that aspect of the trade.

[Pharmcat]

So what do we do?

Option 1- Trade for Melo, Resign Wilson Chandler and get a Center.. But we will most likely lose a combination of Gallo,Fields, and/or 1st round picks

Option 2- Wait for Melo to become a FA, lose wilson chandler to free agency and not able to sign a center, but keep gallo,fields, and/or 1st round picks.

option 1 is the way to go, that way you keep your mle, lle, first round pick, dont have to trade turiaf, etc...summer flex is the better option as you see how the team plays this year, and then make the necessary personnel changes in the summer when the flexibility is there

as far as package, curry, AR, gallo, walker, if they want fields, then they pony out affalo

saving chandler is key as his ability to play multiple spots is worthy

and azu/mozgov (an expiring combo, around 6 mill, factor in the 100K 125% rule) can get you a center on a longer deal this season too

so Im all for getting him this season

[Invictus]

We should probably spell Carmelo's name properly in the thread title before we entertain getting him

[KnickFan33]

And Chandler is such a great ball mover? 1.7 assists per game is a great ball mover? Despite Melo's supposed reputation for being a ball hog, he averages over 3 assists per game. That's more than Chandler, more than Gallo, more than Fields. And the only person he really has to pass the ball to a consistent basis is Nene, who is nowhere close to the offensive talent that Amare is. In terms of Melo's play against the Knicks on Sunday -- let's say that one game is a sufficient sample of Melo's overall game. How do you know the lack of ball movement was Melo's fault, as opposed to perhaps Karl running ISO plays for Melo? What makes you think under Dantoni's system, that Melo won't be able to move the ball?

I suppose assists are the only way in observe ball movement. By that logic, at 6.2 APG for his career, Iverson was a well above average at keeping his teammates involved.

Can you say with absolute confidence that he'll always make the extra pass for the easier shot when he has an opportunity to score? I can't...

I'm not saying that it can't change, but I can't just assume that it will.

[Knicker23]

Invictus, it was done purposely.

So what do we do?

Option 1- Trade for Melo, Resign Wilson Chandler and get a Center.. But we will most likely lose a combination of Gallo,Fields, and/or 1st round picks

Option 2- Wait for Melo to become a FA, lose wilson chandler to free agency and not able to sign a center, but keep gallo,fields, and/or 1st round picks.

option 1 is the way to go, that way you keep your mle, lle, first round pick, dont have to trade turiaf, etc...summer flex is the better option as you see how the team plays this year, and then make the necessary personnel changes in the summer when the flexibility is there

as far as package, curry, AR, gallo, walker, if they want fields, then they pony out affalo

saving chandler is key as his ability to play multiple spots is worthy

and azu/mozgov (an expiring combo, around 6 mill, factor in the 100K 125% rule) can get you a center on a longer deal this season too

so Im all for getting him this season

i agree 200%, option 1...been saying this for a few days now... the way Felton is playing, screw the whole cp3 (at least for now) thoughts, sign Melo, re sign Chandler, and use the money to get a big.

My offer to Denver would be similar to that as well, throw Curry perhaps AR and or walker, and Gallo. Without Gallo i dono if they do it, so lets be realistic. I want Chandler over Gallo. Chandler is better. He won't ask for more than he is worth and I think he'll be a real solid player.

[Fury]

I can't choose between Chandler and Gallo. I think they're both good for this team. Donnie Walsh needs to get creative and find a way to get Melo without hurting the starting lineup. If he holds tight, he might be able to.

[Pharmcat]

I can't choose between Chandler and Gallo. I think they're both good for this team. Donnie Walsh needs to get creative and find a way to get Melo without hurting the starting lineup. If he holds tight, he might be able to.

melo will be a starter if he comes here, so the starting lineup will get hurt anyways

[DishAndSwish]

And Chandler is such a great ball mover? 1.7 assists per game is a great ball mover? Despite Melo's supposed reputation for being a ball hog, he averages over 3 assists per game. That's more than Chandler, more than Gallo, more than Fields. And the only person he really has to pass the ball to a consistent basis is Nene, who is nowhere close to the offensive talent that Amare is. In terms of Melo's play against the Knicks on Sunday -- let's say that one game is a sufficient sample of Melo's overall game. How do you know the lack of ball movement was Melo's fault, as opposed to perhaps Karl running ISO plays for Melo? What makes you think under Dantoni's system, that Melo won't be able to move the ball?

I suppose assists are the only way in observe ball movement. By that logic, at 6.2 APG for his career, Iverson was a well above average at keeping his teammates involved.

Can you say with absolute confidence that he'll always make the extra pass for the easier shot when he has an opportunity to score? I can't...

I'm not saying that it can't change, but I can't just assume that it will.

I actually do think Iverson in his prime was a fantastic ball mover. Let's not forget that he started off as a point guard early on in his career. For all the flack that Iverson gets today, it's mostly about his attitude, his refusal to become a role player, and his refusal to beileve that he's lost a step. During his prime, however, he was unquestionably an elite player. He was incredible on both offense, defense, and getting his teammates involved. In 2001, he carried a starting lineup comprised of Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, and Dikembe to 54 wins, all the way to the NBA Finals, and with that team still managed to rack up nearly 5 assists per game. I think people simply forget how incredible AI was.

That aside, I actually don't think assists tells the whole story about a player's ability to move the ball. There are guys like Gallo, who I think make the pass that leads to the extra pass. I brought up the assist numbers because as you said there's no other measuring stick to go by. Don't get me wrong, I think Wilson is a great player, but I haven't seen anything that tells me he's necessarily a better ball mover than Melo.

[TrueWarrior]

And Chandler is such a great ball mover? 1.7 assists per game is a great ball mover? Despite Melo's supposed reputation for being a ball hog, he averages over 3 assists per game. That's more than Chandler, more than Gallo, more than Fields. And the only person he really has to pass the ball to a consistent basis is Nene, who is nowhere close to the offensive talent that Amare is. In terms of Melo's play against the Knicks on Sunday -- let's say that one game is a sufficient sample of Melo's overall game. How do you know the lack of ball movement was Melo's fault, as opposed to perhaps Karl running ISO plays for Melo? What makes you think under Dantoni's system, that Melo won't be able to move the ball?

I suppose assists are the only way in observe ball movement. By that logic, at 6.2 APG for his career, Iverson was a well above average at keeping his teammates involved.

Can you say with absolute confidence that he'll always make the extra pass for the easier shot when he has an opportunity to score? I can't...

I'm not saying that it can't change, but I can't just assume that it will.

I actually do think Iverson in his prime was a fantastic ball mover. Let's not forget that he started off as a point guard early on in his career. For all the flack that Iverson gets today, it's mostly about his attitude, his refusal to become a role player, and his refusal to beileve that he's lost a step. During his prime, however, he was unquestionably an elite player. He was incredible on both offense, defense, and getting his teammates involved. In 2001, he carried a starting lineup comprised of Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, and Dikembe to 54 wins, all the way to the NBA Finals, and with that team still managed to rack up nearly 5 assists per game. I think people simply forget how incredible AI was.

That aside, I actually don't think assists tells the whole story about a player's ability to move the ball. There are guys like Gallo, who I think make the pass that leads to the extra pass. I brought up the assist numbers because as you said there's no other measuring stick to go by. Don't get me wrong, I think Wilson is a great player, but I haven't seen anything that tells me he's necessarily a better ball mover than Melo.

Iverson is the most overrated player in history. The guy had a career 52% TS%, 42% FG%, 31% 3P%, 105/106 O/D Rating, 0.126 WIn Shares/48. Those are mediocre to below mediocre numbers across the board. His teams never won squat besides one run to the finals in a weak East. He got his numbers but at what cost to the team? There are MANY articles and people who feel the same way as me.

The guy led the league in Usage% 6 times with ridiculous years of 35%+. Sure he was an OKAY passer, but having the ball that much and holding the ball that much means you're going to get SOME assists by default.

Melo has pretty much identical numbers to Iverson (I listed them a page or two back) and its not a wonder Melo hasnt had much success either.

Right now Melo is not a good passer. Lets not look at his 3 assists as a positive. Gallo and Fields could easily get more than that if they touched the ball every time down and was the focal point of the offense. Wilson on the other hand wouldnt. Melo needs to step up his passing game if he comes here and that isnt debatable.

[Fury]

I can't choose between Chandler and Gallo. I think they're both good for this team. Donnie Walsh needs to get creative and find a way to get Melo without hurting the starting lineup. If he holds tight, he might be able to.

melo will be a starter if he comes here, so the starting lineup will get hurt anyways

Well our depth for the most part. We can still do what we do whether he's on the court or not.

[KnickFan33]

Iverson is the most overrated player in history. The guy had a career 52% TS%, 42% FG%, 31% 3P%, 105/106 O/D Rating, 0.126 WIn Shares/48. Those are mediocre to below mediocre numbers across the board. His teams never won squat besides one run to the finals in a weak East. He got his numbers but at what cost to the team? There are MANY articles and people who feel the same way as me.

The guy led the league in Usage% 6 times with ridiculous years of 35%+. Sure he was an OKAY passer, but having the ball that much and holding the ball that much means you're going to get SOME assists by default.

Melo has pretty much identical numbers to Iverson (I listed them a page or two back) and its not a wonder Melo hasnt had much success either.

Right now Melo is not a good passer. Lets not look at his 3 assists as a positive. Gallo and Fields could easily get more than that if they touched the ball every time down and was the focal point of the offense. Wilson on the other hand wouldnt. Melo needs to step up his passing game if he comes here and that isnt debatable.

[Pharmcat]

^his team beat the bucks who had ray allen, cassell, big dog robinson and tim thomas off the bench

that was a stacked team!

[FieldsMedal]

Somebody asked why I think we should acquire Melo? Honestly...because our owner is likely fixated on him, due to having his own personal Rasputin whispering in his ear. If it were me, however, I would think carefully about acquiring him for anything other than a sweetheart price, and then paying him crazy money given his obvious limitations as a player.

Not sure I understand the impossible hypothetical.

Knicks aren't getting him for anything less than the max, so saying "I'd think twice about giving him crazy money" is pointless. It's not an option.

I want to retain my cap flexibility for as long as possible, especially into 2012 (should Dwight Howard miraculously come into play).

Legtimate contenders don't have cap flexibility. They have to use all their space (and a lot more) to acquire the kind of talent necessary to have a legit shot at a ring.

If you're serious about leaving money in the bank until 2012-2013, that's basically saying you're cool if the next 3 seasons are basically building years, towards the goal of 2013-2014.

[KnickFan33]

^his team beat the bucks who had ray allen, cassell, big dog robinson and tim thomas off the bench

that was a stacked team!

I'm not quite sure what your argument is right now...

If you're trying to say that proves Iverson was good at keeping his teammates involved in the offense you couldn't be more wrong.

[TrueWarrior]

^his team beat the bucks who had ray allen, cassell, big dog robinson and tim thomas off the bench

that was a stacked team!

Oh wow the Bucks! That team had no defense! Iverson's Sixers may not have had much offense, but they were a great defensive team, not thanks to Iverson besides a few steals.

I mean seriously look at Iversons FG% his time in Philly. Its disgusting. People say Iverson was on the decline when he played with Melo, but those were actually his most efficient scoring years (45%) and he still dropped 25+ ppg with 7+ apg.

Wanna know another coincidence? Melos FG% was also the highest with Iverson. Yet they still didnt win squat. For that I have hope that Melo will raise his % with Amare, but Im still not sure how well it will translate to wins. We'll have to see.

[duetta]

If you're serious about leaving money in the bank until 2012-2013, that's basically saying you're cool if the next 3 seasons are basically building years, towards the goal of 2013-2014.

I am - but building years when we win. Bottom line, chemistry is everything and we have to get the chemistry right. This isn't some damn computer game - and guys getting paid max money rarely change their stripes.