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[Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for NYK! Part 5

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Re: Trading for Melo helps us retain our players, not lose them 

Post#401 » by BowlRips » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:16 pm

RHODEY wrote:So who do we sign with the MLE. I assume we'd be competing with Miami for some of the same types of players...


You'd definately be competing with Miami, but with our lineup vs theirs, plus the benefits of playing in NYC and being on the team that is built to beat the big 3, I dont think players would chose them over us.

I think Denver fans would relish at the opportunity to clear Harrington and Birdman off their books. WHat use are they if your going to have a 30 win team.

And lets say the Nuggets do end up trading for Chandler and resign Billups and Nene, do they expect to compete with this lineup

Nene
Harington
Chandler
Afflalo
Billups

Itd be better for them to do a complete rebuild.
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Re: Trading for Melo helps us retain our players, not lose them 

Post#402 » by BowlRips » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:17 pm

quackshot27 wrote:Yeah please no harrington. I would rather keep Gallo, he will spread the floor more with his 3 point shot.



By Taking Harringtons contract, it is allowing us to keep Gallo. Its not an either or, its the opposite its either lose Gallo or take Harrington and have hit sit until traded for a PG
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Re: Trading for Melo helps us retain our players, not lose them 

Post#403 » by nykballa2k4 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:22 pm

I agree with the premise here. I think it would be a **** on the roster, but we would have the most talented team in the league. You think we could turn some parts into Agent 0? Once we go into cap hell may as well go full tilt. Denver will not give up Mello that cheap.
Gallinari, AR, Curry should get it done.
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Re: Trading for Melo helps us retain our players, not lose them 

Post#404 » by iHeartKNicks » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:27 pm

If were going to trade for Melo, it really doesn't make sense to keep both Chandler and Gallinari. I would prefer to lose Chandler over Gallinari. You don't trade 6'11 3 point threats. So I came up with this:
NY trades AR for AJ Price & 2010 1st round pick.
Then we trade Chandler,TD Azibuke, Curry & indianas 1st for Carmelo.
Leaving us with:
Felton/Aj Price/ Mason
Fields/Walker/Mason
Carmelo/Williams
Gallinari/RT
Amare/Moz

We still lack depth in the back & frontcourt but according to some of you guys we lack that now. Only difference is with these trades we have our core group of players solidified. Let Denver worry about how much money Chandler deserves. 1 less headache for us. That being said, it'll be easier to find another Chandler via draft than it will be to find another Gallinari.
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Re: Trading for Melo helps us retain our players, not lose them 

Post#405 » by Starksfor3 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:30 pm

nykballa2k4 wrote:I agree with the premise here. I think it would be a **** on the roster, but we would have the most talented team in the league. You think we could turn some parts into Agent 0? Once we go into cap hell may as well go full tilt. Denver will not give up Mello that cheap.
Gallinari, AR, Curry should get it done.


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Re: Trading for Melo helps us retain our players, not lose them 

Post#406 » by RHODEY » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:47 pm

Gallo8 wrote:
RHODEY wrote:So who do we sign with the MLE. I assume we'd be competing with Miami for some of the same types of players...


You'd definately be competing with Miami, but with our lineup vs theirs, plus the benefits of playing in NYC and being on the team that is built to beat the big 3, I dont think players would chose them over us.

I think Denver fans would relish at the opportunity to clear Harrington and Birdman off their books. WHat use are they if your going to have a 30 win team.



I dunno, a competitive vet might choose us but someone looking for an easy ride with nice weather, less taxes, and less media scrutiny might opt for Miami. I think the former type of player is a lot more rare than the later nowadays.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#407 » by Houston99 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:51 pm

can someone please explain what the cap sitution looks like next year. lets say we let everyone expire and sign melo what do we have left? and is there way we can somehow sign chandler and melo. i really dont want to loose fields gallo and chandler.
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Re: Trading for Melo helps us retain our players, not lose them 

Post#408 » by knicks742 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:53 pm

moocow007 wrote:Under the model where the Knicks would shipt Gallinari, Randolph, Walker, Azubuike and Curry to Denver for Melo....it is possible Knicks do trade for Melo it's possible that they can also acquire someone like Birdman in the exchange. Turiaf AND Birdman (along with Mozgov perhaps) together may be doable enough as a tag team tandem at C that the Knicks wouldn't necessarily need to worry about finding one.

Would put them in the luxury tax (which is actually a plus) since it means they'd be able to use the MLE to acquire (presumably) a guard of some sort. And since they would have already have Melo's contract they could also resign (or sign-and-trade) Chandler.

Melo-Stoudemire-Felton-Chandler-Fields-Turiaf-Birdman-Douglas-[MLE guard] gives you 9 guys (the max D'Antoni would play).


That's what I am thinking. It gives us a chance to add Melo to replace Gallo, keep Chandler and add another piece or two to a nine man rotation. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced we need to figure out a way to make this trade before the deadline.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#409 » by Siem » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:54 pm

Houston99 wrote:can someone please explain what the cap sitution looks like next year. lets say we let everyone expire and sign melo what do we have left? and is there way we can somehow sign chandler and melo. i really dont want to loose fields gallo and chandler.


Well from what I know we can sign Melo and still be able to sign Chandler. As long as we keep Fields and one of the two between Gallo and Chandler I'm ok with it...We can risk and wait for the Summer, or we can make a trade with Den.I wouldnt be willing to give the whole farm since Den.has no leverage now.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#410 » by defjux21 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:54 pm

Houston99 wrote:can someone please explain what the cap sitution looks like next year. lets say we let everyone expire and sign melo what do we have left? and is there way we can somehow sign chandler and melo. i really dont want to loose fields gallo and chandler.


FieldsMedal wrote:This the the Knicks 2011-2010 committed guaranteed salaries (in millions)

1. Stat 18.2
2. Felton 7.6
3. Turiaf 4.4
4. Mozgov 3.3
5. Gallinari 4.2
6. Randolph 2.9
7. Douglas 1.1
8. Walker .9

That's $42.6m

Now 9.) Fields is non-guaranteed, but that's a moot point. Let's add his $800k. We'll leave off Rautins $800k (also non--guaranteed) and consider him a minor casualty.

$43.4m

Shawne Williams will be an UFA and the Knicks will have no Bird Rights for him. They'd need pure cap space or use of the MLE (we'll get to that) to sign him (unless for another minimum contract). If he shows anything worth more than the minimum (think Earl Baron last year), he's your second casualty.

Knicks have a 10.) 2011 1st round draft pick, and assuming it's between 15 (around $1.5m) and 23rd (about $1m), we're split the difference and add $1.25m

You're up to $44.65m

Azubuike has a $6.6m cap hold. He's gone too.

Teams under the cap effectively loose use of the MLE, so that's about $5.8m the Knicks can't spend on the MLE.

Likewise the bi-annual exception (valued at $2.18m next year).

So we're already cut loose Rautins, and Azubuike, use of two exceptions worth $5.8m and $2.18m, which effectively cuts loose Williams.

Which bring us to 11.) Wilson Chandler.

$3.1m qualifying offer, $6.4m cap hold (the $6.4m is his cap figure until he either signs his QO, signs an contract with another team or is renounced by the Knicks).

But let's be (extreme) optimists and say he agrees to the QO.

Knicks cap figure is now $47.75m.

The 2010-11 cap is $58m. Let's assume it goes up to $60m in 2011-12.

Knicks would now have $12.25m to sign Carmelo Anthony, who as things stand right now, would be eligible for an $18m starting salary.

Assuming he wants it, Knicks are $5.75m short.

So if you want to keep Chandler (assuming he sighs for QO) you got to trade away at least $5.75m of salary, but only to teams with cap room that don't have to send any salary back.

And even IF you're willing to let Chandler go and renounce him, you're still $2.65m short.

So in re-summary, getting 'Melo for "nothing" likely costs you Chandler, Azubuike, Rautins, Williams, and two free agents exceptions worth $5.8m and $2.18, plus ANOTHER $2.65m in salary from somewhere(?)

As it stands, Randolph, Mozgov or Turiaf is really the only contracts that can come from (Walker AND Douglas perhaps if Anthony is willing to take a little less).
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#411 » by seren » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:54 pm

Siem wrote:
Houston99 wrote:can someone please explain what the cap sitution looks like next year. lets say we let everyone expire and sign melo what do we have left? and is there way we can somehow sign chandler and melo. i really dont want to loose fields gallo and chandler.


Well from what I know we can sign Melo and still be able to sign Chandler. As long as we keep Fields and one of the two between Gallo and Chandler I'm ok with it...We can risk and wait for the Summer, or we can make a trade with Den.I wouldnt be willing to give the whole farm since Den.has no leverage now.


Absolutely wrong.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#412 » by Siem » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:57 pm

Well if I'm wrong, Instead of just putting absolutely wrong, why dont you put absolutely wrong and answer the Question.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#413 » by seren » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:58 pm

Siem wrote:Well if I'm wrong, Instead of just putting absolutely wrong, why dont you put absolutely wrong and answer the Question.


Just check the zillion posts. Including the long quote just on top of yours.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#414 » by kane2021 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:01 pm

Siem wrote:Well if I'm wrong, Instead of just putting absolutely wrong, why dont you put absolutely wrong and answer the Question.

The truth is we are on pace to be 2 million short of a max offer for melo and have no way to make a offer to chandler. All of this talk of leverage shifts in the off season. Where we may actually lose 2 players to sign one.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#415 » by Siem » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:01 pm

lmao you know what Seren your right my fault. I'll let you know what actually happened...I was viewing my posts,b/c I'm going back n forth with some1 on the GD post about the Bulls and Heat running the East for the next decade. I accidentally clicked on this post and thought a Knicks fan had jumped asking about our Melo situation,so I didnt take time to read the post above it...Honest mistake my fault.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#416 » by BowlRips » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:02 pm

defjux21 wrote:
Houston99 wrote:can someone please explain what the cap sitution looks like next year. lets say we let everyone expire and sign melo what do we have left? and is there way we can somehow sign chandler and melo. i really dont want to loose fields gallo and chandler.


FieldsMedal wrote:This the the Knicks 2011-2010 committed guaranteed salaries (in millions)

1. Stat 18.2
2. Felton 7.6
3. Turiaf 4.4
4. Mozgov 3.3
5. Gallinari 4.2
6. Randolph 2.9
7. Douglas 1.1
8. Walker .9

That's $42.6m

Now 9.) Fields is non-guaranteed, but that's a moot point. Let's add his $800k. We'll leave off Rautins $800k (also non--guaranteed) and consider him a minor casualty.

$43.4m

Shawne Williams will be an UFA and the Knicks will have no Bird Rights for him. They'd need pure cap space or use of the MLE (we'll get to that) to sign him (unless for another minimum contract). If he shows anything worth more than the minimum (think Earl Baron last year), he's your second casualty.

Knicks have a 10.) 2011 1st round draft pick, and assuming it's between 15 (around $1.5m) and 23rd (about $1m), we're split the difference and add $1.25m

You're up to $44.65m

Azubuike has a $6.6m cap hold. He's gone too.

Teams under the cap effectively loose use of the MLE, so that's about $5.8m the Knicks can't spend on the MLE.

Likewise the bi-annual exception (valued at $2.18m next year).

So we're already cut loose Rautins, and Azubuike, use of two exceptions worth $5.8m and $2.18m, which effectively cuts loose Williams.

Which bring us to 11.) Wilson Chandler.

$3.1m qualifying offer, $6.4m cap hold (the $6.4m is his cap figure until he either signs his QO, signs an contract with another team or is renounced by the Knicks).

But let's be (extreme) optimists and say he agrees to the QO.

Knicks cap figure is now $47.75m.

The 2010-11 cap is $58m. Let's assume it goes up to $60m in 2011-12.

Knicks would now have $12.25m to sign Carmelo Anthony, who as things stand right now, would be eligible for an $18m starting salary.

Assuming he wants it, Knicks are $5.75m short.

So if you want to keep Chandler (assuming he sighs for QO) you got to trade away at least $5.75m of salary, but only to teams with cap room that don't have to send any salary back.

And even IF you're willing to let Chandler go and renounce him, you're still $2.65m short.

So in re-summary, getting 'Melo for "nothing" likely costs you Chandler, Azubuike, Rautins, Williams, and two free agents exceptions worth $5.8m and $2.18, plus ANOTHER $2.65m in salary from somewhere(?)

As it stands, Randolph, Mozgov or Turiaf is really the only contracts that can come from (Walker AND Douglas perhaps if Anthony is willing to take a little less).



Which exactly why it makes sense for the Knicks to sacrafice Cap flexibility to keep their current prospects. The way the cap works its much better to be $1 over than 7 million under.

Make a trade to keep our prospects but using our current cap flexibility to take on Denver's bad contracts like Harrington and Andersen.

YES WE KNOW NO ONE LIKES HARRINGTON BUT IF YOU LIKE MELO, GALLO, WILSON, FIELDS, and 5.8 MILLION TO SPEND ON A CENTER LIKE PERKINS, DALEMBERT, TYSON CHANDLER THEN ITS WORTH AL BUCKETS RIDING THE BENCH UNTIL WE CAN FIND A SUITABLE TRADE PARTNER (sorry venting)
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#417 » by towelie » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:33 pm

Gallo8 wrote:Which exactly why it makes sense for the Knicks to sacrafice Cap flexibility to keep their current prospects. The way the cap works its much better to be $1 over than 7 million under.

Make a trade to keep our prospects but using our current cap flexibility to take on Denver's bad contracts like Harrington and Andersen.

YES WE KNOW NO ONE LIKES HARRINGTON BUT IF YOU LIKE MELO, GALLO, WILSON, FIELDS, and 5.8 MILLION TO SPEND ON A CENTER LIKE PERKINS, DALEMBERT, TYSON CHANDLER THEN ITS WORTH AL BUCKETS RIDING THE BENCH UNTIL WE CAN FIND A SUITABLE TRADE PARTNER (sorry venting)


There is never any benefit to being over the cap vs. under. What are you getting at?
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#418 » by Pharmcat » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:34 pm

Gallo8 wrote:
defjux21 wrote:
Houston99 wrote:can someone please explain what the cap sitution looks like next year. lets say we let everyone expire and sign melo what do we have left? and is there way we can somehow sign chandler and melo. i really dont want to loose fields gallo and chandler.


FieldsMedal wrote:This the the Knicks 2011-2010 committed guaranteed salaries (in millions)

1. Stat 18.2
2. Felton 7.6
3. Turiaf 4.4
4. Mozgov 3.3
5. Gallinari 4.2
6. Randolph 2.9
7. Douglas 1.1
8. Walker .9

That's $42.6m

Now 9.) Fields is non-guaranteed, but that's a moot point. Let's add his $800k. We'll leave off Rautins $800k (also non--guaranteed) and consider him a minor casualty.

$43.4m

Shawne Williams will be an UFA and the Knicks will have no Bird Rights for him. They'd need pure cap space or use of the MLE (we'll get to that) to sign him (unless for another minimum contract). If he shows anything worth more than the minimum (think Earl Baron last year), he's your second casualty.

Knicks have a 10.) 2011 1st round draft pick, and assuming it's between 15 (around $1.5m) and 23rd (about $1m), we're split the difference and add $1.25m

You're up to $44.65m

Azubuike has a $6.6m cap hold. He's gone too.

Teams under the cap effectively loose use of the MLE, so that's about $5.8m the Knicks can't spend on the MLE.

Likewise the bi-annual exception (valued at $2.18m next year).

So we're already cut loose Rautins, and Azubuike, use of two exceptions worth $5.8m and $2.18m, which effectively cuts loose Williams.

Which bring us to 11.) Wilson Chandler.

$3.1m qualifying offer, $6.4m cap hold (the $6.4m is his cap figure until he either signs his QO, signs an contract with another team or is renounced by the Knicks).

But let's be (extreme) optimists and say he agrees to the QO.

Knicks cap figure is now $47.75m.

The 2010-11 cap is $58m. Let's assume it goes up to $60m in 2011-12.

Knicks would now have $12.25m to sign Carmelo Anthony, who as things stand right now, would be eligible for an $18m starting salary.

Assuming he wants it, Knicks are $5.75m short.

So if you want to keep Chandler (assuming he sighs for QO) you got to trade away at least $5.75m of salary, but only to teams with cap room that don't have to send any salary back.

And even IF you're willing to let Chandler go and renounce him, you're still $2.65m short.

So in re-summary, getting 'Melo for "nothing" likely costs you Chandler, Azubuike, Rautins, Williams, and two free agents exceptions worth $5.8m and $2.18, plus ANOTHER $2.65m in salary from somewhere(?)

As it stands, Randolph, Mozgov or Turiaf is really the only contracts that can come from (Walker AND Douglas perhaps if Anthony is willing to take a little less).



Which exactly why it makes sense for the Knicks to sacrafice Cap flexibility to keep their current prospects. The way the cap works its much better to be $1 over than 7 million under.

Make a trade to keep our prospects but using our current cap flexibility to take on Denver's bad contracts like Harrington and Andersen.

YES WE KNOW NO ONE LIKES HARRINGTON BUT IF YOU LIKE MELO, GALLO, WILSON, FIELDS, and 5.8 MILLION TO SPEND ON A CENTER LIKE PERKINS, DALEMBERT, TYSON CHANDLER THEN ITS WORTH AL BUCKETS RIDING THE BENCH UNTIL WE CAN FIND A SUITABLE TRADE PARTNER (sorry venting)


it makes more sense to get him now

you retain all your summer goodies (mle/first rounder)
you get to see this year what personnel changes are needed to fix the roster (instead of waiting till next year to see how the group plays out)
you can use remaining contracts to acquire more talent this year as bad teams look to unload contracts (Ive repeated myself, but the AZU/MOz is a great expiring combo package for a team)

so while you lose a prospect or 2, building a team around the core of felton,amare, melo can be done faster
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#419 » by DishAndSwish » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:47 pm

The whole purpose of getting under the cap is to have the flexibility and room to sign a max free agent. That's the position we're in right now. If we use the cap space to sign less than max players like Wilson and a Center or backup PG, then we not only lose the ability to sign a max free agent in the future, but we also lose the flexibility of cap relief exceptions and we'll basically have to stand pat with that team. What Pharmcat is saying is that by maxing out our salary via trade right now, we get full use of a number of cap exceptions this summer, including Wil's bird rights and the MLE. This gives us the opportunity to keep Wil, and use the MLE to sign that Center or backup C.
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Re: [Camelo Thread] - Update: He's Pushing for Knicks! Part 5 

Post#420 » by FieldsMedal » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:55 pm

To me it always comes down to knowing the options.

Of course a trade vs off season signing is entirely dependent on what the trade would be, but I have no problem with people concluding an off season signing is more attractive than hypothetical trade proposals.

The "Knicks give up nothing" by waiting notion was just never based in reality.

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