12/14 MIN V GSW 9:30: The Return of Flynn and Webster

[Worm Guts]

Because with our injuries it was either him or Ellington, and Ellington is worse. Now that we have 3 competent wings, Brewer should be the 4th, meaning only 10 minutes a game

As for room for development, his shot is still broke, he still plays out-of-control, and he still can't dribble. There simply hasnt been any improvement, and i think his decision making has been pretty poor this year as well.

Okay, and how many guards have we successfully developed here over the last 5 years? Who has come in and left looking like a new man? Let's look at some names.

Foye
McCants
Brewer
Telfair
Bracey Wright

Maybe that says more about our developmental staff as a whole than it does about Corey Brewer the player.

It's not like these players are blowing up once they leave (or in Telfair's case, before he got here). I think it says more about the caliber of players we've been drafting.

[_AIJ_]

I rather have Travis Diener than Ridnour.

[Dewey]

I said it a bunch of times yesterday, "Minnesota needs to slow down the pace and take good shots". Having Beasley taking horrendous shots and Ridnour jacking up long jumpers and three pointers fueled GS's fast break game. All of those long shots = long rebounds and that is what GS used to get back in the game. They got out on the break and pushed the tempo and got their crowd into the game.

Honestly, I think Minnesota would be better off without Beasley. I'm just not sure he's smart enough to run a team offensively. He takes some of the worst bone-headed shots ever. I also think that Minnesota needs to find their "Chauncey Billups", a PG that can set their offense, can hit the open shots, and commit few turnovers as well as control pace and tempo.

Minnesota has something many teams in the NBA don't, bigs that want the ball in the post. Nowadays, almost all of the big men want to play face up perimeter basketball. Darko and Pekovic and even Love go to the low block and call for the ball, but their guards only randomly get them the ball. The offense needs to start in the paint and work from there. That will help the Wolves control pace and will allow the Wolves to exploit their size in the paint. The Wolves play their best when the drop it into the paint, and end up with open shots based on the bigs getting doubled and passing out or going one on one and getting a shot over single coverage which allows other teammates to crash the glass (Darko and Love excel at this). The Wolves need cutters and good spacing but it's not happening with the guards they have. I've seen too many Ridnour and Beasley pull ups from 20 feet where nobody touched the ball in the paint. Those long misses end up going the other way on the fast break. It's just ignorant basketball and the Wolves shoot themselves right out of games that way. Slow it down, work the ball and offense and feed the post and make the other team play between 16-20 seconds of defense on every possession.

Agree ... We start playing inside-out and our shot selection will be far greater. Our shooters will be more efficient and Brewer will have a clear 10-15 minute role. Darko's production alone should make this a black and white priority. Rubio will manage this consistently and his defense will be a bonus.

[Jackattaq]

I said it a bunch of times yesterday, "Minnesota needs to slow down the pace and take good shots". Having Beasley taking horrendous shots and Ridnour jacking up long jumpers and three pointers fueled GS's fast break game. All of those long shots = long rebounds and that is what GS used to get back in the game. They got out on the break and pushed the tempo and got their crowd into the game.

Honestly, I think Minnesota would be better off without Beasley. I'm just not sure he's smart enough to run a team offensively. He takes some of the worst bone-headed shots ever. I also think that Minnesota needs to find their "Chauncey Billups", a PG that can set their offense, can hit the open shots, and commit few turnovers as well as control pace and tempo.

Minnesota has something many teams in the NBA don't, bigs that want the ball in the post. Nowadays, almost all of the big men want to play face up perimeter basketball. Darko and Pekovic and even Love go to the low block and call for the ball, but their guards only randomly get them the ball. The offense needs to start in the paint and work from there. That will help the Wolves control pace and will allow the Wolves to exploit their size in the paint. The Wolves play their best when the drop it into the paint, and end up with open shots based on the bigs getting doubled and passing out or going one on one and getting a shot over single coverage which allows other teammates to crash the glass (Darko and Love excel at this). The Wolves need cutters and good spacing but it's not happening with the guards they have. I've seen too many Ridnour and Beasley pull ups from 20 feet where nobody touched the ball in the paint. Those long misses end up going the other way on the fast break. It's just ignorant basketball and the Wolves shoot themselves right out of games that way. Slow it down, work the ball and offense and feed the post and make the other team play between 16-20 seconds of defense on every possession.

Agree ... We start playing inside-out and our shot selection will be far greater. Our shooters will be more efficient and Brewer will have a clear 10-15 minute role. Darko's production alone should make this a black and white priority. Rubio will manage this consistently and his defense will be a bonus.

One of the problems I see is Ridnour, he's extremely happy to run pick and rolls where he jacks up a shot so quickly that the roller can't even crash the boards. He's trigger happy and his pull-ups on the fast break result in "wasted possessions". The more time you spend making a team play defense, often the more frustrated they get on offense. Most teams don't want to play defense for 16-20 seconds and when you are jacking up long jumpers they don't have to. When you make a team play that much D, often frustration leads them to take quicker shots than normal because they have expended so much energy defensively.

Next game, watch both Darko and Love. Both guys run to a spot on the low box and call for the ball, next watch how many times the ball actually get entered into the post. The offense often consists of forced and rushed shots and the post guys aren't always in a position to rebound. At least when a big man is shooting the ball or passing to open guys you're more likely to get an open look, or a rebound because short shots don't rebound long. It's simple. Shooting closer to the rim, increases the FG%. If the double teams come, the bigs pass out for OPEN SHOTS. It's simple and tried and tested basketball. Ask the Spurs.

[re49gb_2gho32fp]

I hear what you're saying Jackattaq, and its a very lucrative system with the right players - willing to learn, and more importantly not deviate from it (e.g. Beasley), but follow it consistently more or less.

Few of the problems Wolves are faced with with regards to a/m:
-Darko doesnt get to the line enough (almost at all)
-If he would, hes still a bad ft shooter
-Darko turns the ball over too much to get it more often, i think
- Love also needs to be more assertive around the rim with the ball if hes going for a shot attempt himself. Gets blocked too easily.

I think it could improve over time though, especially if Rubio joins this squad.

[Dewey]

Like it or not, PG and Beasley are limiting factors right now. Beasley can mature eventually, but right now he has the mindset that he should be THE guy ... well, we don't have a THE guy right now. Our PG's are not helping by taking shots early, and on the flip-side, struggle to penetrate.

I don't know exactly how the coaches see things or what they are communicating to the players, so it's hard to suggest if it's players or philosphy. Inside-out is one thing, but we don't seem to have any success cutting either ... Johnson, Brewer, and Beasley should be getting some lobs weakside with how we set our offense...

I like what I saw from Webster ... yes he made shots, but he saw the floor and made the right passes versus forcing junk.

Flynn is a work in progress, but he should help in terms of penetrating the lane ... other than that, I have little confidence he can defend his position in this league.

[Jackattaq]

I hear what you're saying Jackattaq, and its a very lucrative system with the right players - willing to learn, and more importantly not deviate from it (e.g. Beasley), but follow it consistently more or less.

Few of the problems Wolves are faced with with regards to a/m:
-Darko doesnt get to the line enough (almost at all)
-If he would, hes still a bad ft shooter
-Darko turns the ball over too much to get it more often, i think
- Love also needs to be more assertive around the rim with the ball if hes going for a shot attempt himself. Gets blocked too easily.

I think it could improve over time though, especially if Rubio joins this squad.

You are correct about many things, but you are missing the point on others.

Darko doesn't get to the FT line, that is correct. But when he misses he's usually followed up by K. Love or another guy (Wes) who are crashing the boards. When he gets doubled he looks for those guys cutting and both Love and Darko seem to have nice chemistry when it comes to interior passing to each other. When a post up shot goes up, do you notice that often a 2nd defender comes over to try to block the shot (Darko does it all the time defensively) and that often frees up the offensive glass?

Most of the turnovers I've seen out of Darko are from him getting stripped from the blindside because his teammates aren't communicating with him. When their man peels off defensively to strip the ball from the blindside they need to let Darko know and call for the ball because they are open. Another point about turnovers in the post, I don't think a turnover in the post up situation is a bad as a turnover out top or a bad long jumper. Hear me out, a turnover in the low post will not usually result in a fast break or easy points for the opposition. The ball being turned over from 90 feet from the opponents hoop is different than a guy playing a passing lane and getting an easy dunk or the first turnover by Beasley where he was stripped and his man got a dunk. Some of Darko's turnover came from his post moves. He got called for traveling two times. One was bogus because Biedrins had two forearms in his back on his spin move (NOT LEGAL) and the other was legit. Darko should eventually start commanding more respect from the referees as his post game improves and he starts going to more attack the rim plays. Those are confidence issues. When that part of his game comes around he'll get more FT's.

Love looked a lot more assertive going to the rim last night as he tried to dunk on a couple people. You are right, he often goes for the little banker off glass (padding his reb number a la M. Malone). I have noticed a nice chemistry that works between Love and Darko though. They look for each other slashing and cutting through the paint. It's nice to see that kind of passing with the big men. I also really like K. Love's outlet passing. He's good at getting the ball out quickly after rebounds.

My whole point was that by running the ball inside, you can control tempo and you can use your bigs to dictate where your shots come from. Use that size to the team's advantage. You have 7'1 Darko and 6'11 K. Love, make other teams match that size inside and use them to get easy baskets. Use them to get get open looks for Beasley and Wes and Ridnour. I'm not a fan of quick hurried shots that take away from "every possession mattering". The Wolves have too many wasted possessions.

[re49gb_2gho32fp]

Id have to spend a significant amount of time to analyze the potential flaws of the reasoning developed which i can't afford in combination to being lazy.And the result probably would not turn out different than me agreeing to most points. Quality discussion, send an application to ESPN or something.

[Jackattaq]

Id have to spend a significant amount of time to analyze the potential flaws of the reasoning developed which i can't afford in combination to being lazy.And the result probably would not turn out different than me agreeing to most points. Quality discussion, send an application to ESPN or something.

Awe shucks, is dat der da best ya got?

P.S. Intelligent enough ?

LOL.

[re49gb_2gho32fp]

Battle lost, war not over (Unless Wolves improve record at a better pace, and Darko improves his game).

p.s. Fastidiously and borderline out of context - Love is substantially smaller than suggested or Im blind. This has been stated on the general board as well earlier. 6'9 with shoes would be a relatively accurate guess rpesumably.

[Worm Guts]

He was measured at the combine. He's 6'7.75 without shoes.

[horaceworthy]

Foye, McCants, Telfair and Wright were all pre this coaching staff. Brewer improved last year but it's reasonable to say it was more the confidence he got from playing massive minutes then anything else.

He's fine I guess, but from last year to now he's been mis-used. As a 4th wing, defensive energy guy he should be fine, in theory. It's when he's asked to do too much that he runs into problems.

I don't think Brewer's being asked to do too much, I don't think he knows his limitations. If he did, I'm not sure he'd be as adept for putting himself in the position to make plays on both sides of the ball as he is.

He's like a new puppy. He's constantly moving too fast for his own good, and no matter how adorable he is throughout the game, it's just a matter of time before he pees on the rug. You just have to hope that at the end of the day, the good outweighs the bad.

I doubt he'll ever get himself under control, but if he gets back to shooting the long ball like he did last year he could really be an asset, despite his faults.

[horaceworthy]

Most of the turnovers I've seen out of Darko are from him getting stripped from the blindside because his teammates aren't communicating with him. When their man peels off defensively to strip the ball from the blindside they need to let Darko know and call for the ball because they are open.

I have trouble pinning all those on his teammates given the consistency with which they occur. Darko needs to be stronger with the ball, get his elbows up, and stop holding it casually around his belly button. He needs to realize that double teams are coming now and be better prepared for them.

[shangrila]

Whether he's being asked to do too much or just doing it himself isn't really the point. The point is that he's doing a lot more then he should be given his skillset. He should play defence, make some cuts, hit the corner three and, if people close out on that, do his lay-up high bank shot off the glass that seems to work for him.

I don't think he'll ever be an "asset" either. His gambling hangs his team mates out to dry and his offensive game gives the ball back more times then it should. I mean, it's not even about praying he'll be a net positive anymore, it's about praying he'll do enough good to cancel out all of the bad stuff he consistently does. Sometimes it works and he looks alright, most times it doesn't and he looks crap.

He's not a player worth holding on to really. Maybe he goes somewhere and becomes the role player we all want him to be, but this is as good as it looks like it'll get for the foreseeable future.

[horaceworthy]

Whether he's being asked to do too much or just doing it himself isn't really the point. The point is that he's doing a lot more then he should be given his skillset. He should play defence, make some cuts, hit the corner three and, if people close out on that, do his lay-up high bank shot off the glass that seems to work for him.

I don't think he'll ever be an "asset" either. His gambling hangs his team mates out to dry and his offensive game gives the ball back more times then it should. I mean, it's not even about praying he'll be a net positive anymore, it's about praying he'll do enough good to cancel out all of the bad stuff he consistently does. Sometimes it works and he looks alright, most times it doesn't and he looks crap.

He's not a player worth holding on to really. Maybe he goes somewhere and becomes the role player we all want him to be, but this is as good as it looks like it'll get for the foreseeable future.

It is when you're talking about him being better off in a smaller role. If he's doing too much because a coach is asking too much of him, there's a better chance of that being the case than if he's the reason he's playing outside of himself.

Brewer can be an asset. Highest adjusted +/- on the team over the last two years, one of just 4 players on the team not in the red in this category (Love, Tolliver and Webster are the others). His game is decidedly awkward looking, but it's been more effective than people give him credit for.

According to Synergy, he's a better defender in ISO situations than Wes, where his man only scores 35.9% of the time and turns the ball over 12.8% of the time (45.9% and 8.1% for Wes), where he really struggles is fighting through screens. Wes has been the better overall defender (0.82 PPP to 0.87 PPP), but Brewer is better at creating turnovers (6.4% of his man's possesions for Wes, 12.2% for Brewer). There's a use for that.

He's a nice shot in the arm, energy type off the bench, or at least he would be if he were knocking down outside shots at last year's clip. He does a fantastic job putting himself in position to make plays on both ends of the court, unfortunately, his ability to capitalize on that knack is mediocre at best.

He's getting a bit of a raw deal on the board this year because there are preferable options on the wings most of us would rather see developed, but I agree he isn't really worth hanging onto.

[wilt]

Love´s "defense" is almost as annoying as the fact that seemingly no one notices or mentions it. For every rebound he gets he give a guy an open shot, an open lane to the basket or fails to put his hands up so that he can get rebounding position.

the main problem on offense imo is that there is very, very poor spacing on the court when Darko, Love and Beasley play at the same time. Beasley f.e. needs to learn to play off the ball and move the ball while drawing attention.

I also think that running more pick and roll plays would help a lot. Both Darko and Beasley in theory should be good option as the screener/roller, Love can pop out for jumpers and Tolliver should be able to do both when healthy.
Plus both Flynn (due to a lack of controll) and Ridnour (due to a lack of speed) would benefit from it.

There´s just too much standing around going on on offense as of now.

[re49gb_2gho32fp]

Just watched Darko's game vs Gsw on YT from that teamdarko user that uploads them.
By all indications it appears to me that this guy will never improve or even reach half of the potential he had. Hook shot after Hook shot after Hook shot after Hook shot. there were at least 3 occasions where he should have just easily dunked the ball. On two occasions he posted up good and displayed some good footwork, but ended up taking the hook shot when imo clealy a jumper would have been a better option (+ more likely do draw a foul).

Im not very optimistics as far as his offensive game goes. At all.

[Krapinsky]

Three weeks ago he couldn't make a hook shot. It's a marathon, not a sprint.