ImageImageImageImageImage

Olerud a Hall of Famer?

Moderator: JaysRule15

User avatar
LittleOzzy
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 35,033
And1: 4,198
Joined: Dec 19, 2005
       

Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#1 » by LittleOzzy » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:45 pm

A few weeks ago, I was asked how I thought John Olerud would fare in this year’s Hall of Fame vote.

“Really?” I said. “John Olerud is eligible for induction this year?”

The question had been answered with that question.

Olerud’s first-year Hall of Fame candidacy mirrors his personality as a player: quiet, content to remain in the background, unobtrusive to the point you barely can tell he’s there.

Despite Olerud’s local ties – the graduate of Interlake High in Bellevue went on to star at Washington State, and later, after making the rare jump from college straight to the big leagues, he was a key cog in the last two Mariners teams to reach the playoffs – I’ve discussed Olerud in terms of the Hall of Fame only once. And that was in Spokane, en route to the Apple Cup.

A year ago, Edgar Martinez, another unassuming sort with no ambition to see his face on a TV screen or his name in a newspaper headline, created an uncharacteristic stir when he finally became eligible for the Hall of Fame. During the days before the deadline – ballots must be submitted by Dec. 31 – voters around the country were asked which way they were leaning. Responses varied from “sure thing” to “no way.”

Such a disparity of opinions was due, of course, to Edgar’s position, or lack thereof. The debate hinged on the extent a designated hitter should be penalized by voters for not occupying a defensive position.

Martinez, who had a chance to become the first DH enshrined in Cooperstown, ended up with 195 votes from the 539-person electorate. Although his 36.2 percent total was well below the 75 percent necessary for election, it was well above the 5 percent minimum needed to keep his case alive.

Olerud inspires no such debate. His career offensive statistics, while solid, are not spectacular. There’s no magic number that jumps off the page and catches the eye.

He didn’t retire with at least a .300 batting average. (It was .295.) He didn’t finish with 500 home runs. (He finished with 255). He didn’t accumulate 3,000 hits (he had 2,239), or 1,500 RBI (he had 1,230).

Although a fundamentally flawless first baseman whose ability to scoop throws out of the dirt was unrivaled by his peers, he contributed all that stellar defense at, well, first base – during an era when first basemen were primarily valued for their power. Perhaps that’s why Olerud was named to but two All-Star Games, and received MVP consideration only twice: With the Blue Jays in 1993, when he was third, and with the Mets in 1998, when he was 12th.

Hall-of-Fame voters generally hold one of two philosophies. Some espouse a small Hall, a shrine open to only the best of the best.



http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/12/1 ... o-but.html

Good read.
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 58,580
And1: 18,064
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#2 » by Schad » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:53 pm

Olerud's career WAR of 62.4 trumps that of recent inductee Jim Rice (56.1) despite an almost-identical number of plate appearances, but his low HR total and lack of individual awards means that he doesn't have a hope in hell. He probably won't survive his first year on the ballot, unfortunately.
Image
**** your asterisk.
Michael Bradley
General Manager
Posts: 9,490
And1: 2,163
Joined: Feb 25, 2004

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#3 » by Michael Bradley » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:07 am

Even if Olerud never makes the HOF, he'll still be the answer to the trivia question "who did the Jays trade in the worst deal in franchise history?".

John Olerud and $5 million to the Mets for Robert Person. One year after losing Roberto Alomar for draft picks. Oh, how I miss the Ash era.
luvtheteam
Junior
Posts: 358
And1: 0
Joined: Jun 08, 2010

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#4 » by luvtheteam » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:10 am

Amazing to me that he didn't have at least a .300 career avg. Remember the year he was chasing hitting .400 well into the summer? One of the sweetest strokes you'll ever see.

Funny how the article says after jumping from college he was a cog in the Mariners playoff teams. Actually he was a cog in the BJ's 2 world series after jumping from college!! Dumbass comments by the writer.
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 58,580
And1: 18,064
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#5 » by Schad » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:25 am

Michael Bradley wrote:Even if Olerud never makes the HOF, he'll still be the answer to the trivia question "who did the Jays trade in the worst deal in franchise history?".

John Olerud and $5 million to the Mets for Robert Person. One year after losing Roberto Alomar for draft picks. Oh, how I miss the Ash era.


Heh, and then we traded Person for Spoljaric, and then packaged Spoljaric with Hentgen -- who was pretty bad at that point, but still -- for:

- the comedy act that was Alberto Castillo's bat (OPS+ of 38 in 357 PAs with the Jays);
- Lance Painter (sucked and was released after half a season);
- and Matt DeWitt (who sucked, became a footnote in the Sirotka debacle, and didn't pitch in the majors past age 24).
Image
**** your asterisk.
The Flying Gent
Veteran
Posts: 2,562
And1: 1,275
Joined: May 29, 2008
Contact:
         

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#6 » by The Flying Gent » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:50 am

Schadenfreude wrote:
Michael Bradley wrote:Even if Olerud never makes the HOF, he'll still be the answer to the trivia question "who did the Jays trade in the worst deal in franchise history?".

John Olerud and $5 million to the Mets for Robert Person. One year after losing Roberto Alomar for draft picks. Oh, how I miss the Ash era.


Heh, and then we traded Person for Spoljaric, and then packaged Spoljaric with Hentgen -- who was pretty bad at that point, but still -- for:

- the comedy act that was Alberto Castillo's bat (OPS+ of 38 in 357 PAs with the Jays);
- Lance Painter (sucked and was released after half a season);
- and Matt DeWitt (who sucked, became a footnote in the Sirotka debacle, and didn't pitch in the majors past age 24).


That's like that one guy who started with a red paperclip and traded his way to a house, but in reverse.
User avatar
SharoneWright
RealGM
Posts: 28,560
And1: 13,135
Joined: Aug 03, 2006
Location: A pig in a cage on antibiotics
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#7 » by SharoneWright » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:51 am

Even if he never makes the Hall of Fame, he's enshrined in the Hall of My Heart.
Is anybody here a marine biologist?
Hoopstarr
RealGM
Posts: 22,285
And1: 10,312
Joined: Feb 21, 2006
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#8 » by Hoopstarr » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:02 am

Michael Bradley wrote:Even if Olerud never makes the HOF, he'll still be the answer to the trivia question "who did the Jays trade in the worst deal in franchise history?".

John Olerud and $5 million to the Mets for Robert Person. One year after losing Roberto Alomar for draft picks. Oh, how I miss the Ash era.


John Buck > John Olerud in Cito's eyes.
Mike Hunt
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,769
And1: 37
Joined: Apr 11, 2004
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#9 » by Mike Hunt » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:50 am

Schadenfreude wrote:
Michael Bradley wrote:Even if Olerud never makes the HOF, he'll still be the answer to the trivia question "who did the Jays trade in the worst deal in franchise history?".

John Olerud and $5 million to the Mets for Robert Person. One year after losing Roberto Alomar for draft picks. Oh, how I miss the Ash era.


Heh, and then we traded Person for Spoljaric, and then packaged Spoljaric with Hentgen -- who was pretty bad at that point, but still -- for:

- the comedy act that was Alberto Castillo's bat (OPS+ of 38 in 357 PAs with the Jays);
- Lance Painter (sucked and was released after half a season);
- and Matt DeWitt (who sucked, became a footnote in THE SIROTKA DEBACLE, and didn't pitch in the majors past age 24).

I would argue that that was easily one of the worst trades in Jays history.
Hoopstarr
RealGM
Posts: 22,285
And1: 10,312
Joined: Feb 21, 2006
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#10 » by Hoopstarr » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:25 pm

Ash made the three worst trades in Jays history. Olerud for Person, Wells for Sirotka, and Michael Young for Loaiza.
User avatar
J-Roc
RealGM
Posts: 33,149
And1: 7,550
Joined: Aug 02, 2008
Location: Sunnyvale
       

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#11 » by J-Roc » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:28 pm

Why was this article written? I thought they'd tell us why Olderud WAS a candidate. It's like a rip job.
Michael Bradley
General Manager
Posts: 9,490
And1: 2,163
Joined: Feb 25, 2004

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#12 » by Michael Bradley » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:13 pm

Hoopstarr wrote:Ash made the three worst trades in Jays history. Olerud for Person, Wells for Sirotka, and Michael Young for Loaiza.


Don't forget trading David Cone to a pre-Dynasty Yankees squad for the great trio of Marty Janzen, Jason Jarvis and Mike Gordon. The three of them combined to throw 98.2 innings with a 6.38 ERA, 20 home runs allowed, and a blistering 51/64 BB/K ratio over the span of their MLB careers (all thrown by Janzen). Cone of course went on to help lead the Yankees into their late-90's dynasty.
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 58,580
And1: 18,064
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#13 » by Schad » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:48 pm

Michael Bradley wrote:
Hoopstarr wrote:Ash made the three worst trades in Jays history. Olerud for Person, Wells for Sirotka, and Michael Young for Loaiza.


Don't forget trading David Cone to a pre-Dynasty Yankees squad for the great trio of Marty Janzen, Jason Jarvis and Mike Gordon. The three of them combined to throw 98.2 innings with a 6.38 ERA, 20 home runs allowed, and a blistering 51/64 BB/K ratio over the span of their MLB careers (all thrown by Janzen). Cone of course went on to help lead the Yankees into their late-90's dynasty.


Definitely not in the same ballpark, but he had many other head-scratching deals. Woody Williams + two minor leaguers for Joey Hamilton was brilliant...Woody would go on to throw another 1600 league-average innings as a starter, while Hamilton would flame out. Shawn Green for Raul Mondesi and Pedro Borbon, with Mondesi later getting punted for nothing, was another good one.

And perhaps my favourite hallmark of the Ash era, the parade of fail at 2B after Robbie left: Tomas Perez, Domingo Cedeno, Felipe Crespo, Carlos Garcia, Craig Grebeck, and Homer Bush. Being the Jays' second baseman during that time was a lot like being the drummer for Spinal Tap...you'd be in the background for a little while before spontaneously combusting, ne'er to be spoken of again.
Image
**** your asterisk.
Msgrv32
Ballboy
Posts: 37
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#14 » by Msgrv32 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:34 pm

Gord Ash is a monster.
Michael Bradley
General Manager
Posts: 9,490
And1: 2,163
Joined: Feb 25, 2004

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#15 » by Michael Bradley » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:52 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:
Michael Bradley wrote:
Hoopstarr wrote:Ash made the three worst trades in Jays history. Olerud for Person, Wells for Sirotka, and Michael Young for Loaiza.


Don't forget trading David Cone to a pre-Dynasty Yankees squad for the great trio of Marty Janzen, Jason Jarvis and Mike Gordon. The three of them combined to throw 98.2 innings with a 6.38 ERA, 20 home runs allowed, and a blistering 51/64 BB/K ratio over the span of their MLB careers (all thrown by Janzen). Cone of course went on to help lead the Yankees into their late-90's dynasty.


Definitely not in the same ballpark, but he had many other head-scratching deals. Woody Williams + two minor leaguers for Joey Hamilton was brilliant...Woody would go on to throw another 1600 league-average innings as a starter, while Hamilton would flame out. Shawn Green for Raul Mondesi and Pedro Borbon, with Mondesi later getting punted for nothing, was another good one.


Agreed on Williams/Hamilton. Woody was already a better pitcher than Hamilton at the time of the trade, and that was with Williams in the AL (East) and Hamilton in the NL. I don't know what Ash expected Hamilton to turn into once he switched leagues. Williams of course did better in the NL, as expected. Hamilton was promptly signed to a big contract before throwing a pitch for the Jays, and ended his Jays career with a 5.83 ERA in 253 innings pitched.

Green for Mondesi was a typical treadmill/appease the fans move. Mondesi was an exciting player who could have reasonably been above average in RF getting away from LA, while a big enough name to fool the fanbase into thinking the Jays made a good trade. I believe Mondesi had two option years in 2002 and 2003 which Ash promptly picked up at the time of the trade. So instead of having Mondesi for two years/~$20 million, we had him for four years/~$45 million. No need to explain what happened there, except Steinbrenner saved the Jays by taking Raul's contract away in 2002.

Ash just made a huge amount of blunders during his time here, and amazingly he was still closer to making the playoffs in 1998-2000 than at any other time during Toronto's post-93 playoff drought. Imagine if he was actually making some good moves.....
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 58,580
And1: 18,064
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#16 » by Schad » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:35 pm

Michael Bradley wrote: I believe Mondesi had two option years in 2002 and 2003 which Ash promptly picked up at the time of the trade. So instead of having Mondesi for two years/~$20 million, we had him for four years/~$45 million. No need to explain what happened there, except Steinbrenner saved the Jays by taking Raul's contract away in 2002.

Ash just made a huge amount of blunders during his time here, and amazingly he was still closer to making the playoffs in 1998-2000 than at any other time during Toronto's post-93 playoff drought. Imagine if he was actually making some good moves.....


True for 2000, though that was largely a product of the AL East at the time; I don't think that the '98-'00 teams were better than, for instance, the '06-'08 teams, but 2000 was a perfect storm. Down years for our competitors (the Yanks won the Series, but were terribly average in the regular season), but undone by some terrible pitching -- Escobar, Carpenter and Halladay with 400+ IP of 6 ERA ball -- and a depressingly-familiar late-season collapse where we finished 2-8 against non-playoff teams. 7-3 and we force (at worst) a one-game playoff with the Yanks, who only played 161 that year.
Image
**** your asterisk.
Hoopstarr
RealGM
Posts: 22,285
And1: 10,312
Joined: Feb 21, 2006
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#17 » by Hoopstarr » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:46 am

In 2000, I think we were first place at one point in June or July and there was legit hope. In 2001, they started 16-7 or something and that sticks in my mind because all 3 Toronto teams were peaking together (Leafs and Raptors were on a roll in the playoffs) and Dick Schaap's final comment on Sports Reporters that week was about just that. That was the last time there was excitement about sports in Toronto. Sigh.
User avatar
Schad
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 58,580
And1: 18,064
Joined: Feb 08, 2006
Location: The Goat Rodeo
     

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#18 » by Schad » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:15 am

Hoopstarr wrote:In 2000, I think we were first place at one point in June or July and there was legit hope. In 2001, they started 16-7 or something and that sticks in my mind because all 3 Toronto teams were peaking together (Leafs and Raptors were on a roll in the playoffs) and Dick Schaap's final comment on Sports Reporters that week was about just that. That was the last time there was excitement about sports in Toronto. Sigh.


There was a bit in 2008, when we ran off that ten-game win streak to get within 6.5 of the Sox and the Wild Card, with a four-game series against them in Fenway, and three more at home the next week (of course, we went 2-5). It's really the only point since 2000 where you could actually game the final weeks out to produce a possible playoff berth without sounding like a total crazy person.

Though if memory serves, I did tell anyone on this board who did so that they were a total crazy person.
Image
**** your asterisk.
evilRyu
General Manager
Posts: 8,394
And1: 2
Joined: Jan 23, 2006

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#19 » by evilRyu » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:21 am

Michael Bradley wrote:
Agreed on Williams/Hamilton. Woody was already a better pitcher than Hamilton at the time of the trade, and that was with Williams in the AL (East) and Hamilton in the NL. I don't know what Ash expected Hamilton to turn into once he switched leagues. Williams of course did better in the NL, as expected. Hamilton was promptly signed to a big contract before throwing a pitch for the Jays, and ended his Jays career with a 5.83 ERA in 253 innings pitched.

I remember this trade.. IIRC, I believe it was all Dave Stewart's brilliant idea to trade for Hamilton, and then give him that contract..
Michael Bradley
General Manager
Posts: 9,490
And1: 2,163
Joined: Feb 25, 2004

Re: Olerud a Hall of Famer? 

Post#20 » by Michael Bradley » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:27 am

Schadenfreude wrote:
Hoopstarr wrote:In 2000, I think we were first place at one point in June or July and there was legit hope. In 2001, they started 16-7 or something and that sticks in my mind because all 3 Toronto teams were peaking together (Leafs and Raptors were on a roll in the playoffs) and Dick Schaap's final comment on Sports Reporters that week was about just that. That was the last time there was excitement about sports in Toronto. Sigh.


There was a bit in 2008, when we ran off that ten-game win streak to get within 6.5 of the Sox and the Wild Card, with a four-game series against them in Fenway, and three more at home the next week (of course, we went 2-5). It's really the only point since 2000 where you could actually game the final weeks out to produce a possible playoff berth without sounding like a total crazy person.

Though if memory serves, I did tell anyone on this board who did so that they were a total crazy person.


In 1998, the Jays were 3 games back of the Wild Card on September 14 and September 23. They went on a huge tear at the end of that season and gave the Red Sox a scare. They finished 4 games out of the Wild Card that year.

In 1999 they were leading the Wild Card on August 11, but then they collapsed badly from that point on going 19-27 the rest of the way.

Then there was 2000, when they lead the AL East a bit in July, and Ash went nuts trying to take advantage of their opportunity (trading Young and Abernathy for Loaiza and Trachsel respectively in a last ditch effort to patch together a decent pitching staff).

I felt the Jays had a chance in all three of those seasons, but unfortunately Ash didn't do enough good to make up for the bad.

Return to Toronto Blue Jays