Official Countdown Grunfeld Era-2nd SuperStar?

[mhd]

Seriously, fire Ernie and hire Kevin Prtichard. If you want to rebuild, at least Pritchard will try and draft players and be aggressive. He won't be a total fraud by claiming Lewis is a rebounder and defender.

[LyricalRico]

*Yawn*

Folks said the same stuff after the Dallas trade last season, only to later realize that it was for the best. Well, this was just an extension of the purge initiated at least year's deadline. A lot of folks have come around on Ernie's post-Ted moves and once they get over their personal feelings for Gil they'll come around on this too. Even if folks get their wish and Ernie doesn't oversee the entire rebuild, years from now it'll be clear that this move benefited the team by better positioning them for the long-term. I have no doubts about that.

[AceDegenerate]

*Yawn*

Folks said the same stuff after the Dallas trade last season, only to later realize that it was for the best. Well, this was just an extension of the purge initiated at least year's deadline. A lot of folks have come around on Ernie's post-Ted moves and once they get over their personal feelings for Gil they'll come around on this too. Even if folks get their wish and Ernie doesn't oversee the entire rebuild, years from now it'll be clear that this move benefited the team by better positioning them for the long-term. I have no doubts about that.

*Yawn*

Once people get over their personal feelings for Ernie, they'll come around to the fact that he built the same mess that you were clamoring for him to break up. Ernie will not be here if/when this team ever sees success, that is something Ted can take to the bank.

[fishercob]

*Yawn*

Folks said the same stuff after the Dallas trade last season, only to later realize that it was for the best. Well, this was just an extension of the purge initiated at least year's deadline. A lot of folks have come around on Ernie's post-Ted moves and once they get over their personal feelings for Gil they'll come around on this too. Even if folks get their wish and Ernie doesn't oversee the entire rebuild, years from now it'll be clear that this move benefited the team by better positioning them for the long-term. I have no doubts about that.

To be clear, I'm not questioning the move. The quoted section of the press release though, was petty and pathetic. Taking the moves he's made out of the equation -- i.e. as a person -- Ernie's done little if anything to endear himself to Wizards fans.

[JonathanJoseph]

As a resident Ernie Grunfeld apologist (for lack of a better term), I'll chime with my trade thoughts in this thread.

This sucks. And it's squarely on Grunfeld.

This trade makes absolutely no sense, either in the short term or long term. I am an unabashed Gilbert Arenas fan but I would understand if you were to trade him for cap relief. But this trade did not accomplish that. In fact, if you believe that Arenas has one of the worst contracts in the NBA (which I do not), then all you've done here is trade for one of the absolute worst contracts in the NBA. Had this trade been for Vince Carter or Marcin Gortat and a 1st round pick, I'd be fine with it. But that's not the case.

If you believe that Arenas had to be moved (and many do, although I did not), then there was no rush to make this move. If the only thing you can get in return is a terrible contract, why make a move? If Arenas played out the season playing even as poorly as he's been playing recently, his trade value still skyrockets as he proves that he is healthy and costs $16M less to a trade partner. It's very clear that it was Orlando that initiated the trade interest (and the Magic/Suns trade confirms this), so Grunfeld should have been the person with the leverage in the negotiation. But the Wizards got nothing of value.

The idea that the Wizards gained something with less total dollars owed is laughable. Rashard Lewis has the least tradeable contract in the NBA (far worse than Arenas), and so we are stuck with a $20M/year paperweight. That Lewis' contract comes off the books in 2013 rather than Arenas' contract coming off the books in 2014 is of so little value it's shocking. The benefit certainly goes to Leonsis' wallet, but that shouldn't be an issue. Arenas is a difference maker as a player (even the "new" Gil) and has real value as a player on the floor. Lewis is not a difference maker and serves very little purpose. If rebuilding and going younger was the goal, all we've done is trade for a player who is going to take playing time from Booker or even Thornton, who still has some (if very little ) promise. From a pure basketball standpoint, adding a soft, jump shooting PF is a disasterous fit.

Sorry, I could keep going, but I don't see a positive aspect to this and it is a major, major move. This is about $20M in cap space that has been tied up in a poor player and a poor fit for the next 2-3 years. EVERY other move Grunfeld has made post-Pollin has been made with youth and cap flexibility in mind and I was in favor of all of those. This move actually subtracts from those efforts. Arenas served a clear purpose and had the potential to be a very effective fit next to Wall and Josh Howard (and that the Wizards only gave the Wall/Arenas backcourt 1 start is pretty much unforgivable).

The one remaining reason that this could have been "necessary" was Arenas' attitude or mindset, which perhaps had become an issue. And if that's the case, then it would fall squarely on Grunfeld's shoulders for how badly he threw Arenas under the bus after the incident. Management 101 includes people skills, and no one is happy when they know their boss makes a public spectacle out of your mistakes.

I am distraught over the end of the Gilbert Arenas era in DC (and that may color my analysis). I do not think it needed or should have ended this way. This move has an enormous impact on my view of the job Grunfeld has done, and keep in mind that I was one of maybe two people (Rico?) to have been in favor of the Butler/Haywood/Stevenson deal. Unless this move has a significant positive impact on team chemistry, it looks like a disaster.

[closg00]

As a resident Ernie Grunfeld apologist (for lack of a better term), I'll chime with my trade thoughts in this thread.

This sucks. And it's squarely on Grunfeld.

This trade makes absolutely no sense, either in the short term or long term. I am an unabashed Gilbert Arenas fan but I would understand if you were to trade him for cap relief. But this trade did not accomplish that. In fact, if you believe that Arenas has one of the worst contracts in the NBA (which I do not), then all you've done here is trade for one of the absolute worst contracts in the NBA. Had this trade been for Vince Carter or Marcin Gortat and a 1st round pick, I'd be fine with it. But that's not the case.

If you believe that Arenas had to be moved (and many do, although I did not), then there was no rush to make this move. If the only thing you can get in return is a terrible contract, why make a move? If Arenas played out the season playing even as poorly as he's been playing recently, his trade value still skyrockets as he proves that he is healthy and costs $16M less to a trade partner. It's very clear that it was Orlando that initiated the trade interest (and the Magic/Suns trade confirms this), so Grunfeld should have been the person with the leverage in the negotiation. But the Wizards got nothing of value.

The idea that the Wizards gained something with less total dollars owed is laughable. Rashard Lewis has the least tradeable contract in the NBA (far worse than Arenas), and so we are stuck with a $20M/year paperweight. That Lewis' contract comes off the books in 2013 rather than Arenas' contract coming off the books in 2014 is of so little value it's shocking. The benefit certainly goes to Leonsis' wallet, but that shouldn't be an issue. Arenas is a difference maker as a player (even the "new" Gil) and has real value as a player on the floor. Lewis is not a difference maker and serves very little purpose. If rebuilding and going younger was the goal, all we've done is trade for a player who is going to take playing time from Booker or even Thornton, who still has some (if very little ) promise. From a pure basketball standpoint, adding a soft, jump shooting PF is a disasterous fit.

Sorry, I could keep going, but I don't see a positive aspect to this and it is a major, major move. This is about $20M in cap space that has been tied up in a poor player and a poor fit for the next 2-3 years. EVERY other move Grunfeld has made post-Pollin has been made with youth and cap flexibility in mind and I was in favor of all of those. This move actually subtracts from those efforts. Arenas served a clear purpose and had the potential to be a very effective fit next to Wall and Josh Howard (and that the Wizards only gave the Wall/Arenas backcourt 1 start is pretty much unforgivable).

The one remaining reason that this could have been "necessary" was Arenas' attitude or mindset, which perhaps had become an issue. And if that's the case, then it would fall squarely on Grunfeld's shoulders for how badly he threw Arenas under the bus after the incident. Management 101 includes people skills, and no one is happy when they know their boss makes a public spectacle out of your mistakes.

I am distraught over the end of the Gilbert Arenas era in DC (and that may color my analysis). I do not think it needed or should have ended this way. This move has an enormous impact on my view of the job Grunfeld has done, and keep in mind that I was one of maybe two people (Rico?) to have been in favor of the Butler/Haywood/Stevenson deal. Unless this move has a significant positive impact on team chemistry, it looks like a disaster.

JoJo is that really you?

[JonathanJoseph]

As a resident Ernie Grunfeld apologist (for lack of a better term), I'll chime with my trade thoughts in this thread.

This sucks. And it's squarely on Grunfeld.

This trade makes absolutely no sense, either in the short term or long term. I am an unabashed Gilbert Arenas fan but I would understand if you were to trade him for cap relief. But this trade did not accomplish that. In fact, if you believe that Arenas has one of the worst contracts in the NBA (which I do not), then all you've done here is trade for one of the absolute worst contracts in the NBA. Had this trade been for Vince Carter or Marcin Gortat and a 1st round pick, I'd be fine with it. But that's not the case.

If you believe that Arenas had to be moved (and many do, although I did not), then there was no rush to make this move. If the only thing you can get in return is a terrible contract, why make a move? If Arenas played out the season playing even as poorly as he's been playing recently, his trade value still skyrockets as he proves that he is healthy and costs $16M less to a trade partner. It's very clear that it was Orlando that initiated the trade interest (and the Magic/Suns trade confirms this), so Grunfeld should have been the person with the leverage in the negotiation. But the Wizards got nothing of value.

The idea that the Wizards gained something with less total dollars owed is laughable. Rashard Lewis has the least tradeable contract in the NBA (far worse than Arenas), and so we are stuck with a $20M/year paperweight. That Lewis' contract comes off the books in 2013 rather than Arenas' contract coming off the books in 2014 is of so little value it's shocking. The benefit certainly goes to Leonsis' wallet, but that shouldn't be an issue. Arenas is a difference maker as a player (even the "new" Gil) and has real value as a player on the floor. Lewis is not a difference maker and serves very little purpose. If rebuilding and going younger was the goal, all we've done is trade for a player who is going to take playing time from Booker or even Thornton, who still has some (if very little ) promise. From a pure basketball standpoint, adding a soft, jump shooting PF is a disasterous fit.

Sorry, I could keep going, but I don't see a positive aspect to this and it is a major, major move. This is about $20M in cap space that has been tied up in a poor player and a poor fit for the next 2-3 years. EVERY other move Grunfeld has made post-Pollin has been made with youth and cap flexibility in mind and I was in favor of all of those. This move actually subtracts from those efforts. Arenas served a clear purpose and had the potential to be a very effective fit next to Wall and Josh Howard (and that the Wizards only gave the Wall/Arenas backcourt 1 start is pretty much unforgivable).

The one remaining reason that this could have been "necessary" was Arenas' attitude or mindset, which perhaps had become an issue. And if that's the case, then it would fall squarely on Grunfeld's shoulders for how badly he threw Arenas under the bus after the incident. Management 101 includes people skills, and no one is happy when they know their boss makes a public spectacle out of your mistakes.

I am distraught over the end of the Gilbert Arenas era in DC (and that may color my analysis). I do not think it needed or should have ended this way. This move has an enormous impact on my view of the job Grunfeld has done, and keep in mind that I was one of maybe two people (Rico?) to have been in favor of the Butler/Haywood/Stevenson deal. Unless this move has a significant positive impact on team chemistry, it looks like a disaster.

JoJo is that really you?

Yes, it might just be that I am perfectly capable of objective thought.

[Silvie Lysandra]

The majority of GENERAL BOARD posters thought we got hosed, which is striking considering how much that place hates Arenas.

[Wizards2Lottery]

At this point who got hosed or not is besides the question. When looking at the big picture, Ernie had a solid 5-6 year window to build a team and the end results suggest that it was an epic fail.

Are we really trying to commit another 2-3 years to Ernie. Does one decade of Wizards basketball have to be defined by a guy whose teams have never won a single 2nd round playoff game or made it past the first round more than once?

[LyricalRico]

This sucks. And it's squarely on Grunfeld.

You are dead to me.

[w dumseld]

Haters gonna hate and losers gonna lose, so CCJ please keep the hate alive.

Which is the only NBA team that hasn't won more than 47 games in any of the last 30 seasons. That's right! Our Wizards/Bullets. An inept franchise with a long culture of losing. And as we learned, the franchise is rat crap from top to bottom. The hope was that Ted would change everything but he hasn't yet. Our goal is to be a top team in 3-5 years but Flop's coaching is beyond understanding playing guys that aren't that good but help us to lose respectably. He did it last year when he played Oberto and DS instead of the young guys. No vision. He played Wall 45 minutes a game in preseason and over-played him in the season even after some injuries and now he's out hurt. How dumb is that. Now he plays neck and Yi instead of the young guys that will be on the team beyond this season. And as for GM, Grunfeld has a pitiful track record of assembling soft talent that loses lots of basketball games. Its just like Lyrical said, if you look at Grunfeld's moves in isolation, they can be rationalized. But as he is implying, if you look at them in totallity they make no sense. That is because there was no vision, no master plan. Just tactics and no strategy. Which is one reason we have such an impressively long streak of sucking. Everything is short term, not part of some 3-5 year plan.

Bottom line, the losers don't want any changes because they are comfortable with the status quo and are worried about change. Its a natural instinct and many people have that characteristic trait. But the haters are sick of losing. I can't f#^$ing stand it, drives me crazy. So I see CCJ get hammered by many on the board because he wants to make changes and try and take risks to stop this losing culture and the loserz would much rather just keep losing and not risk making changes to what clearly and with a long track record, doesn't work. As CCJ represents the silent majority of haterz on the board, I just want to appeal to him to come back and keep hating. Who knows, maybe Ted surfs the boards and will finally get the message. Maybe he'll get rid of Flop just to protect Wall. Maybe because playing Booker and Seraphin and not Hilton and Yi is what matters for us over the next 3-5 years. Who knows. But for all of us that can't stand the status quo of a losing culture and losing organization please keep the hate alive.

[Dat2U]

As a resident Ernie Grunfeld apologist (for lack of a better term), I'll chime with my trade thoughts in this thread.

This sucks. And it's squarely on Grunfeld.

This trade makes absolutely no sense, either in the short term or long term. I am an unabashed Gilbert Arenas fan but I would understand if you were to trade him for cap relief. But this trade did not accomplish that. In fact, if you believe that Arenas has one of the worst contracts in the NBA (which I do not), then all you've done here is trade for one of the absolute worst contracts in the NBA. Had this trade been for Vince Carter or Marcin Gortat and a 1st round pick, I'd be fine with it. But that's not the case.

If you believe that Arenas had to be moved (and many do, although I did not), then there was no rush to make this move. If the only thing you can get in return is a terrible contract, why make a move? If Arenas played out the season playing even as poorly as he's been playing recently, his trade value still skyrockets as he proves that he is healthy and costs $16M less to a trade partner. It's very clear that it was Orlando that initiated the trade interest (and the Magic/Suns trade confirms this), so Grunfeld should have been the person with the leverage in the negotiation. But the Wizards got nothing of value.

The idea that the Wizards gained something with less total dollars owed is laughable. Rashard Lewis has the least tradeable contract in the NBA (far worse than Arenas), and so we are stuck with a $20M/year paperweight. That Lewis' contract comes off the books in 2013 rather than Arenas' contract coming off the books in 2014 is of so little value it's shocking. The benefit certainly goes to Leonsis' wallet, but that shouldn't be an issue. Arenas is a difference maker as a player (even the "new" Gil) and has real value as a player on the floor. Lewis is not a difference maker and serves very little purpose. If rebuilding and going younger was the goal, all we've done is trade for a player who is going to take playing time from Booker or even Thornton, who still has some (if very little ) promise. From a pure basketball standpoint, adding a soft, jump shooting PF is a disasterous fit.

Sorry, I could keep going, but I don't see a positive aspect to this and it is a major, major move. This is about $20M in cap space that has been tied up in a poor player and a poor fit for the next 2-3 years. EVERY other move Grunfeld has made post-Pollin has been made with youth and cap flexibility in mind and I was in favor of all of those. This move actually subtracts from those efforts. Arenas served a clear purpose and had the potential to be a very effective fit next to Wall and Josh Howard (and that the Wizards only gave the Wall/Arenas backcourt 1 start is pretty much unforgivable).

The one remaining reason that this could have been "necessary" was Arenas' attitude or mindset, which perhaps had become an issue. And if that's the case, then it would fall squarely on Grunfeld's shoulders for how badly he threw Arenas under the bus after the incident. Management 101 includes people skills, and no one is happy when they know their boss makes a public spectacle out of your mistakes.

I am distraught over the end of the Gilbert Arenas era in DC (and that may color my analysis). I do not think it needed or should have ended this way. This move has an enormous impact on my view of the job Grunfeld has done, and keep in mind that I was one of maybe two people (Rico?) to have been in favor of the Butler/Haywood/Stevenson deal. Unless this move has a significant positive impact on team chemistry, it looks like a disaster.

Wow, major kudos for keeping it real and telling us how you really feel. I respect that. You might be dead to Lyrical Rico but your alive and well to me.

[Hoopalotta]

This sucks. And it's squarely on Grunfeld.

You are dead to me.

Quotes from the game thread:

The owners of the team had just lost their husband and father who was hugely anti-gun. They themselves put out very strong statements after the incident. EG's actions are explained by his being an employee under these special circumstances.

It was a dumb move on all their parts. Their anti-gun bent aside, they seriously devalued a $100M+ asset and set the franchise back by years in the process. Having a happy and productive Arenas right now would be light years better than Rashard Lewis. No excuses.

I think that is the most valid attack on the Grunners very recent tenure as I can only think of two reasons as to why it would be excusable to make the whole thing public:

A) It would have been impossible to cover up
B) It would have been possible to cover up, but not with anything like a 100% chance of success and EG et. all would have had to expose themselves to being criminally culpable in trying.
C) Somehow, the Pollins intervened. (this one seems very unlikely as they stood to lose tens of millions of dollars).

Other than that or minor variations on those themes, anything else I can conceptualize is basically a foolish and avoidable self inflicted wound. We well might have been able to trade him at last year's deadline with how he was playing if that's what we wanted. Probably about half the teams in the league just wouldn't even think about touching him based on the bad publicity there and we couldn't afford that sort of drop in demand.

[Benjammin]

^^^^

D. They thought they would be able to void his contract. Bing, bing, bing, we have a winner.

[Hoopalotta]

A, B and C are the only excusable options, not the only options.

Of course I have considered that option D, but D very easily fits under the broad umbrella that is almost inevitably a "foolish and avoidable self inflicted wound".

How many times have big "untradable" contracts been traded compared with successful contract voids based on moral turpitude clauses or criminal convictions? What is the chance of success there? What respectable reason is there for anyone go against that historic precedent? If you try and void but fail, what's plan B? How is the fallout of this attempt going to position you with agents and players? How is this going to affect the sale of the team?

I could go on, but option D would just be a disgusting miscalculation.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Option D would also be a probable move for a Tier 3 franchise like ours. Let's not forget that we are the absolute butt of all NBA jokes for a reason. This franchise has been nothing short of pathetic for 30 years now and for a good reason too. We've had clueless management after the other.

I cannot understand how people are still willing to keep Grunfeld. Everyone is fine getting rid of the "mess" but apparently the guy who put this mess together is coming out of this completely untouched.

[Benjammin]

A, B and C are the only excusable options, not the only options.

Of course I have considered that option D, but D very easily fits under the broad umbrella that is almost inevitably a "foolish and avoidable self inflicted wound".

How many times have big "untradable" contracts been traded compared with successful contract voids based on moral turpitude clauses or criminal convictions? What is the chance of success there? What respectable reason is there for anyone go against that historic precedent? If you try and void but fail, what's plan B? How is the fallout of this attempt going to position you with agents and players? How is this going to affect the sale of the team?

I could go on, but option D would just be a disgusting miscalculation.

Yeah, it's a good thing this team hasn't had any disgusting miscalculations the last several years.

[paulpressey25]

I cannot understand how people are still willing to keep Grunfeld. Everyone is fine getting rid of the "mess" but apparently the guy who put this mess together is coming out of this completely untouched.

Bucks fan here. I stop on your board a couple times a year to weigh in on the Grunfeld threads.

We had him here as a player and then our GM for a few years, although he didn't have complete control as GM.

The bottom line is you can't view him as anything other than a disaster. He participated in having us send out Ray Allen for a disgruntled 30-game rental of Gary Payton. Signed TIm Thomas to a kajillion dollar contract and drafted people like Marcus Hasilip.

He's now been the Wizards GM since June 30th of 2003. This is year 8 if my math is correct. By pure mathematical chance you would have lucked into a John Wall caliber player in those eight years if that chimp in Hoopalotta's avatar had been running things.

This guy does a great job sucking up to owners, front office types and the media to keep his jobs. But at the end of the day, he tends to make a lot of fantasy basketball type trades/signings and seems incapable of putting together a true winning team or uncovering future top tier players.

Just my two cents.

[WizarDynasty]

I will give Ernie and Ted a vote of confidence. Lewis can be a matchup nightmare at the three spot. He has a skill that takes years and years to develop and he has the magic number 6'10 size at the small forward spot. He is going to feast with John wall penetration and the blatche constant double team. He offers more size to battle the bigger small forwards in the league and Josh Howard has a slight frame and really cant matchup physically with the bigger small forwards like pierce, Joe Johnson. Rashard's height will allow him to sag off more still contest shots. He doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective and the defense has to respect him. Rashard allows John Wall to be John Wall. Rashard allows Blatche to punish teams for doubling him in the post. We have an awesome sg rotation of Howard and Young. We got Lewis and Howard at the s/f spot. we got booker and blatche at the p/f spot and we got mcgee and seraphin at the center spot--we got Hilton in their while Seraphin learns and it looks like Seraphin has an excellent Basketball IQ and work ethic and its anti social making his learning curve much quicker than anticipated. Signing Howard to an extension has to be a number one priority.
We just have to thank Areans for all he has done and cheer for Orlando in their two year window of opportunity. we had to learn the hardway and we are on the right course. Pierce, Allen, and Garnett can only go for so long and guess what juggernaut is hiding in the darkness built for a decade to dominate as a dynasty. The Wiz. Two way players is how you build a starting five...and it looks like EG and Ted have slowly been moving in that path. Keep up the good work EG, now sign Howard for a few more years and have plans to keep the rest of our players. Don't trade anyone unless you are getting an even better two way player in return.

[closg00]

I cannot understand how people are still willing to keep Grunfeld. Everyone is fine getting rid of the "mess" but apparently the guy who put this mess together is coming out of this completely untouched.

Bucks fan here. I stop on your board a couple times a year to weigh in on the Grunfeld threads.

We had him here as a player and then our GM for a few years, although he didn't have complete control as GM.

The bottom line is you can't view him as anything other than a disaster. He participated in having us send out Ray Allen for a disgruntled 30-game rental of Gary Payton. Signed TIm Thomas to a kajillion dollar contract and drafted people like Marcus Hasilip.

He's now been the Wizards GM since June 30th of 2003. This is year 8 if my math is correct. By pure mathematical chance you would have lucked into a John Wall caliber player in those eight years if that chimp in Hoopalotta's avatar had been running things.

This guy does a great job sucking up to owners, front office types and the media to keep his jobs. But at the end of the day, he tends to make a lot of fantasy basketball type trades/signings and seems incapable of putting together a true winning team or uncovering future top tier players.

Just my two cents.