I think we should trade Johnson for Iggy.

[Krapinsky]

I don't want this to be interpreted as a "johnson has dissapointed and we should trade him thread." Quite the contrary. I like what I've see from Johnson.

However...

1. I wonder if his ceiling is even equivalent to the player Iggy is now.
2. Iggy can better play the 2 position.
3. Webster duplicates Johnson's skillset and role to an extent and is not much older
4. Iggy improves our defense, our ball movement (better passer and ballhandler), and gives championship level role players (w/ Love) to compliment [EDIT: BEASLEY] and our future PG (essentially, Irving or Rubio).
5. Flynn, Johnson's buddy, may not have a future with the team either

I propose Johnson + Brewer + Telfair for Iggy + Brackins

Rubio or Irving/Flynn/Ridnour
Iggy/Ellington
Beasley/Webster/Hayward
Love/Tolliver/Brackins
Darko/Pekovic/Koufos

We would also still have Flynn to dangle, our 2011 pick (probably top 5), and the two firsts owed to us.

I think we should do it. What say you??

[C.lupus]

I had the same thought. I think it would take Johnson to get Iggy and I'd probably do it.

[Esohny]

I'd love Iggy on the team. Him and Rubio would be a really good defensive backcourt with great playmaking. Love, Webster and Beasley should be able to space the floor for them on offense.

[Yes We Kahn]

I would do this. No question. I like Johnson, but Iggy is about as proven of a commodity as we are going to be able to get. Plus he fills a huge need.

[shrink]

I wouldn't consider it.

First, Wes Johnson on a rookie deal for the next four years means we're trading Johnson + quality $8 mil Free Agent for the next four years.

Second, we don't know how good Wes Johnson is going to be. We know he'll provide the three-point shooting we'll need (a hole in Iguodala's game). Iguodala is a career 32% and while Wes is only 36% now, its very early in his rookie year.

Now I'm not saying that Iguodala doesn't have big advantages for our team, such as defense, passing and penetration. However, he has fully proven he's not a #1 guy, although he's paid as one. Because of his contract, I don't think he has the value to bring back the #4 pick in the draft .. at least, not this early.

At a minimum, this conversation is premature. No matter how much you may like Iguodala, it's something we should discuss next summer, after our lottery pick is locked up, and we have a better idea who Wes Johnson is going to be.

[the_bruce]

1. I wonder if his ceiling is even equivalent to the player Iggy is now.

I'm not sure what Wes's ceiling is, and Iggy is pretty high to shoot for anyone. Statistically they had very similar rookie seasons. Stylistically they are so different it's hard to compare too.

[Fire Mchale]

[quote="shrink"]I wouldn't consider it.

First, Wes Johnson on a rookie deal for the next four years means we're trading Johnson + quality $8 mil Free Agent for the next four years.

quote]

The punitive punishment that is Iggy's contract can't be ignored. While he's an upgrade, his contract is on par with elite players and he just isn't one. We would no doubt be an improved team, but the volume of cap space consumed by Iggy would kill our ability to be much of anything other than improved from terrible.

If we're going to make a move involving Wes, I would much prefer it be for Monta Ellis who at 11M a year is a much better value and might require the same assets to acquire.

[Mattya]

Right now as a rookie Johnson is hurting the Wolves on the court. He seems lost on offense and scared to attack. On defense he gets lost guarding screen runners. He has a ton of potential, his mid range jumper is really impressive, he plays good man defense when he isn't lost on screens. He could be really good but I question if he can play the 2, and I would rather him play the 3, but I would rather have Beasley then Johnson at the 3. So I think it would be best to move him so he doesn't sit on the bench here. I also question trading for iggy, he is what about to be 27 28 years old, playing a ton of minutes, I would hope he doesn't start to show the mileage. Right now I would do it since I'm so tired of losing. Ellis, Iggy, or Josh Smith works for me.

[Wolves Rube]

1. I wonder if his ceiling is even equivalent to the player Iggy is now.

I'm not sure what Wes's ceiling is, and Iggy is pretty high to shoot for anyone. Statistically they had very similar rookie seasons. Stylistically they are so different it's hard to compare too.

I agree! I have a difficult time trading Johnson right now. First, I don't think Iggy is the answer - short term or long term. Second, I think that consistancy is important for teams, especially young ones. I'd like to see the team get a full season to gel. If next year at the trade deadline we haven't improved, we trade some of the young pieces we have.

Now, this doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see some movement. Either Luke or Bassy can go along with Brewer and the Utah pick. I think that we can get some value for these players/assets - hopefully a long, skilled back up center.

[shrink]

I would also point out that loading up on complimentary players is a very unlikely way to get a championship. The 2004 DET Pistons are a very rare breed - almost all championship teams are led by superstars. Getting Iguodala would improve our record, but would cost us the finances and lottery pick that has a chance to bring us a superstar.

[Esohny]

What superstar are the Wolves getting outside of the draft?

[crickets]

This trade (or a trade for Ellis or some other 2nd tier star) won't cost (or significantly decrease the value of) the 1st rounder this year, and we've already traded away the 1st for next year. You've got to do the best with what you have, and that will not be an established superstar, no matter how much we want it to be.

If the Wolves are getting a superstar any time in the near future, it's either going to be Beasley, Rubio, or I suppose this year's lottery pick developing into one, or some long shot gamble like signing Greg Oden in FA and suddenly having his health problems disappear. Chris Paul is not going to suddenly decide he wants to force his way to Minnesota. The team could rent Carmelo, but he's not re-signing here. Shrug.

[Swish4]

Wes has a higher ceiling than Iggy. Let's be patient with him and we'll have a better player than Iggy will ever be.

What about a Brewer for Speights deal?

[big3_8_19_21]

I wouldn't mind the trade, but I doubt a player we picked that high will be traded so soon.

[Blue Wolf]

I would do this deal at the deadline, not before. A week ago or so, I suggested Johnson/Pekovic/Telfair for Iggy/Speights as the basis for a deal, and it seemed that most here thought the Wolves were giving up too much. I still think it will take more than just Johnson to get a deal done (unless WesJ shows a lot of improvement before the deadline) ... but if Philly will take this, great. Waiting until the deadline increases the likelihood that we'll still have a pretty high pick this year.

Also:

-- At some point, we have to start winning games or our young players may get disgruntled and leave ASAP, develop poor habits as basketball players or become mentally accustomed or accepting of losing. I worry that if we don't start winning soon, we'll be wandering the proverbial rebuilding wilderness for a very long time ... in much the same way the post-Jordan, pre-Rose Chicago Bulls did.

-- Yes, Iggy is owed a ton of money on that contract but don't we lose any 2011 cap space after the trade deadline anyway? (meaning: it will be extremely tough to bring an Iggy or Monta or any other star-type player here before the summer of 2012, at the earliest, if we don't act now)

[The J Rocka]

Huge fan of Iggy. Definitely the go-to-guy in clutch situations and delivers. Definitely want him here especially if it means giving up WJ. He's the perfect fit here and I think most of us know that we aren't going to get anything better down the road. Trade for Iggy, collect our top 5 pick, and get Rubio over here asap.

[C.lupus]

Wes has a higher ceiling than Iggy. Let's be patient with him and we'll have a better player than Iggy will ever be.

What about a Brewer for Speights deal?

Would Philly do that? I would.


Another player I've been thinking about is Andy Varejao. He's all about defense and hustle and would look nice backing up Darko and Love. I don't know what Cleveland's plans are but they seem stuck between two worlds right now. If they want to rebuild, we have some pieces that may be interesting to them. His contract is kind of long but it's at a more reasonable rate than Iggy or Ellis or Smith.

(yeah, I didn't feel like creating another trade thread so I decided to derail Krap's)

[horaceworthy]

I don't think Philly would go for Brewer/Speights, but I'm not sure I would either. Speights only has value when his jumper is falling, and at the moment it isn't.

No real interest in Varejao, not unless we had first added a guy like Monta, but that would be a couple expensive acquisitions.

The only guy I have much interest in who gets consistently mentioned around here is Monta.

[Krapinsky]

I wouldn't consider it.

First, Wes Johnson on a rookie deal for the next four years means we're trading Johnson + quality $8 mil Free Agent for the next four years.

I think we might get more value out of Iggy over the next three years than we would Johnson + $8M. (See Ridnour + Pekovic). Moreover, take a look at the list of players that just signed contracts starting at $8M. It's not pretty.

Even so, would we have $8M in salary to give out next year? What about Rubio? What about our draft picks? You know better than I, but I thought we would have a lot less than $8M in cap space next offseason.

Second, we don't know how good Wes Johnson is going to be. We know he'll provide the three-point shooting we'll need (a hole in Iguodala's game). Iguodala is a career 32% and while Wes is only 36% now, its very early in his rookie year.

You're right we don't know. But, as I alluded to earlier, Webster's game is very similar to Johnson's. Moreover, Beasley and Love shoot the three ball really well. The way the rest of our roster is organized we need a player that can penetrate much more than we do another player that can hit open three's. We can have three point shooters sitting on the perimeter all day, but they're not going to get open unless someone brings in another defender. I like Darko's post game, but that's not going to get it done. Beasley's dribble drive game is improving, but he's not exactly a willing passer. Rubio would obviously help.

Now I'm not saying that Iguodala doesn't have big advantages for our team, such as defense, passing and penetration. However, he has fully proven he's not a #1 guy, although he's paid as one. Because of his contract, I don't think he has the value to bring back the #4 pick in the draft .. at least, not this early.

Well, #1 guys are paid the max. A lot of #2 guys are paid the max too. That's why they call it a max. A lot of #3 guys are paid like Iggy. Iggy makes similar money to Bynum, David Lee, Luol Deng, Rudy Gay, Josh Smith, Danny Granger, and Al Jefferson. I find it hard to believe that when you look at comparable player Iggy is paid more than his value. If he was a free agent someone would definitely pay him the same money.

quote="shrink"]
At a minimum, this conversation is premature. No matter how much you may like Iguodala, it's something we should discuss next summer, after our lottery pick is locked up, and we have a better idea who Wes Johnson is going to be.[/quote]

Goes both ways. If we sell now, we get a better return on his potential. If we sell after his rookie season and he doesn't improve then Phili probably wouldn't accept a Johnson/Iggy trade. This is where we stand now with Johnny Flynn.

[shangrila]

There's still the same problems that came up last time we all talked about Iggy. His shooting isn't great and I'd imagine a backcourt with him and Rubio would be running into the same problems Philly does with him and Holiday.

He's old. He turns 27 soon so there's a big enough gap between his prime and the rest of the guys' to maybe be a long term problem.

According to 82games, he's also significantly better as a SF on both ends of the court. He hasn't played the same minutes at both wing positions so it's hard to draw a legit comparison, but it's not the 1st time I've heard that he's a natural SF that can play SG. Another problem that might eventually come up.

So I don't know if I'd give up Johnson in this kind of deal. In theory he fits the exact role this team needs from a SG; a shooter and defender who runs the floor and makes the simple pass. Looking at his advanced stats give me a little more hope, as his eFG% is higher then both Iggy and Ellis while his TS% is only slightly lower.

If the team looked like they were ready to take the next step by the deadline, and the FO decided Iguodala was that next step, then I guess I could get behind it. But right now I'd rather add role playing veterans like Webster then start giving out pieces of the core for a few more wins this year.

[/communication]

[B Calrissian]

Huge fan of Iggy. Definitely the go-to-guy in clutch situations and delivers. Definitely want him here especially if it means giving up WJ. He's the perfect fit here and I think most of us know that we aren't going to get anything better down the road. Trade for Iggy, collect our top 5 pick, and get Rubio over here asap.

When did this drastic change occur?