Shaq/Wade vs. TD/Kobe

[joeyAdaMan]

Dude its a Troll account, no reason to respond to him.

here is what i don't get. you continue to say it was kobe and his ego that broke the team apart. but yet from everything i've heard shaq fired shots first. not only that but people continue to say shaq said he wouldn't play d or rebound if he didn't get touches. so all signs to shaq having a big part in the team breaking up. you also need to factor in the fact that shaq has 6+ years on kobe age wise so he should of taken kobe under his wing instead of feuding with the kid he should of been more mature and tried to resolve the situation instead of fueling the fire you say he sped up kobes development and made kobe a better player but everything including bryants own production says otherwise i don't see how picking on an 18-25 year old kid is helping him develop....not saying kobe isn't a huge egomaniac and didn't have anything to do with the team breaking apart but he only got better and better after shaq left so you need to look at both sides homie

[Andrewchos]

You've heard wrong then, or heard from the countless Kobe fans who try their hardest to revise history.

I never said Shaq wasn't a significant reason for the breakup, but I followed it closely when it happened and the main reason it got to that point was because of Kobe's massive ego and failure to understand his position on the team and do what was best for the team and not for himself.

I don't know why you keep talking about Kobe, yes I know he was one of the best guards in the league but the fact still remains that from 99-05 Shaq was a far better and more valuable player and the team played much better and won more when they ran the offense through Shaq directly with Kobe playing a Pippen type role. You saw what happened in 04 when Kobe let his Ego ruin LA's chance at winning a title by hogging the ball and taking far more shots then anyone else on the team while shooting 36% from the field.

In that Series :
Shaq = 27PPG 11RPG .63%FG
Kobe = 21PPG 3RPG 3APG .38%FG .174%3PT

[joeyAdaMan]

You've heard wrong then, or heard from the countless Kobe fans who try their hardest to revise history.

I never said Shaq wasn't a significant reason for the breakup, but I followed it closely when it happened and the main reason it got to that point was because of Kobe's massive ego and failure to understand his position on the team and do what was best for the team and not for himself.

I don't know why you keep talking about Kobe, yes I know he was one of the best guards in the league but the fact still remains that 99-05 Shaq was a far better and more valuable player and the team played much better and won when they ran the offensive through Shaq directly with Kobe playing a Pippen type role. You saw what happened in 04 when Kobe let his Ego ruin LA's chance at winning a title by hogging the ball taking far more shots then anyone else on the team while shooting 36% from the field.

yeah you still didn't address the fact that shaq is a poor leader. you compare him to jordan and say he's a goat candidate but there is a reason he's nowhere near jordan magic bird on the all time lists or at least won surpass them he wasn't a great leader of men he didn't have great work ethic he didn't add things to his game he didn't evolve i don't know how you can argue for a guy who wasn't as good as he could of been and it WAS HIS FAULT he got fat he didn't accept HIS 2nd fiddle role until it was too late and he may of made life easier for other stars(no crap thats what stars do for one another) but he really didn't make them better basketball players and a GOAT candidate should lead players and literally make them better and as lazy and injury prone he's been the 2nd half of his career i don;'t think he's above saying i'm not gonna d up and rebound unless i get my touches

[Andrewchos]

Not a great leader? He was unquestionably the leader of the early 00 LA squad the one that 3peated and got to the finals 4-5 years. He lead an Orlando expansion team to the finals in his third year, He basically led Miami to the Final's his first 2 years there and won the Chip in his second year.

He was never fat , he came into camp out of shape maybe once or twice the rest of his career before that he was always in great shape and in 05/06 in Miami he was in great shape despite being older and having lost a step or two.

And how is he nowhere near MJ/Magic on the All-Time list.

Half the people I know have him in their top 5's and most have him in their top 7's.

I consider him the GCOAT, he won like Kareem and was Dominant like Wilt.

I guess you just don't realize how immensely dominant he was and how truly valuable he was for Orlando/LA/Mia, but its ok.. I don't expect everyone to share my opinion bro.

[joeyAdaMan]

Not a great leader? He was unquestionably the leader of the early 00 LA squad the one that 3peated and got to the finals 4-5 years. He lead an Orlando expansion team to the finals in his third year, He basically led Miami to the Final's his first 2 years there and won the Chip in his second year.

He was never fat , he came into camp out of shape maybe once or twice the rest of his career before that he was always in great shape and in 05/06 in Miami he was in great shape despite being older and having lost a step or two.

And how is he nowhere near MJ/Magic on the All-Time list.

Half the people I know have him in their top 5's and most have him in their top 7's.

I consider him the GCOAT, he won like Kareem and was Dominant like Wilt.

I guess you just don't realize how immensely dominant he was and how truly valuable he was for Orlando/LA/Mia, but its ok.. I don't expect everyone to share my opinion bro.

being the best player and being a good leader are two different things.......and when you look at young shaq compared to even mid to late 20's shaq you can see he gained weight......weight that he clearly didn't need considering he dominated from the day he entered the league at age 20......if he had any kind of work ethic he could of maintained a nice healthy weight into his mid 30's and he would of had enough quickness that he wouldn't of had to lower his damn shoulder into everyone and he would of been a better defender as well with less weight.....yes he's top 10 and easily top 3-5 most physically gifted people recorded in all of human history but i can't defend a guy who wasn't as good as he could of been

[ItsMillerTime]

lol, I wonder who's Troll account I am.

[ItsMillerTime]

TD/Kobe by far. With Shaq/Wade, you are looking at a 15-35 win team every season. Shaq needs about 5 more HOFers on his team to compete for a title and carry him. Kobe and Duncan could play with eighth graders and win a ship. Remeber, Shaq and Wade put up one of the worst seasons in NBA history, and Shaq has already destroyed the Magic, Suns, Heat, and Cavs chances of winning rings. Kobe and TD have 8 rings as the number 1 option combined. Shaq and Wade have 2..... one of the most lopsided comparisions ive seen on this board

Not sure if serious? Wade was injured Shaq gave up and was out of shape. Heat tanked that season.

05 Heat almost got to the finals and potential win a title had Wade not got a rib injury..

Cool. So with the Shaq/Wade combo you get two tankers who win under 20 games without multiple HOFers and refs to help them. Now I understand.

[jaypo]

First of all, how many of you "experts" out there are under 15% body fat and think they can play about 95 NBA games in a year? For those that don't fit that criteria, please lay off the "out of shape" crap, because outside of 2003 (when he had surgery) it is documented by his damn coaches that he was not " out of shape". So quit trying to make the facts untrue!!!

Secondly, a past prime Shaq as a 2nd option with a 2nd and 3rd year Wade (not in his prime) won a title (should have had 2). What makes you think that both in their primes couldn't win??? Denial. It's an ugly thing!

Lastly- Shaq may have fired the first WORDS in the feud. But please tellme why he did so. Because KOBE WAS PLAYING SELFISH BALL! And that was backed up by his coach!! So what's worse- actually calling out the player, or the player that is actually doing what Phil said- (he would say "ok" to your face when you told him to do something, then go behind your back and do what he wanted to do anyway).

Oh. For the record- Shaq SAID he wouldn't play defense or rebound to warn Kobe. Kobe actually refused to shoot in an entire half because he was pouting about what the reporters said. How come nobody busts his balls for actually DOING the deed???? Double standard, anyone??

Lastly- Shaq was a horrible leader because he called out a player that was sabotaging the team? Jordan punched teammates when they weren't playing up to HIS standards. Yet, you call him a great leader. What's worse- the player trying to handle a problem by talking about it, or the player that beats the crap out of a teammate? Again- double standard, anyone?

It's getting comical hearing all you haters condemn Shaq and praise players who have done multitudes more crap detrimental to their teams, families, and fans. That's one reason why I can't get upset. It makes me laugh at all the ignorance being displayed each time you haters (or lovers) try to skew the FACTS to make your argument, and it makes me pity you. In reality, it makes you look very foolish. No matter how many jabs you throw my way, it only reinforces what I'm saying. So keep 'em coming. I enjoy the unintentional comedy!

[Andrewchos]

Obviously Shaq didn't maximize his talent, he could have been the GOAT if he had a perfect work ethic, but that really doesn't make a difference, he accomplished what he did with the work ethic he had, end of story. I examine what he accomplished not "what he could have accomplished" no reason to go into hypothetical's like that.

I think Shaq was a great leader in Orl/LA/Mia and was great at getting everyone to accept their roles and play as a team (outside of Kobe) he was always great at forming team chemistry (see the Celtics this year) and made everyone around him much better and made life far easier for his team mates.

He should have won the DPOY in 2000, and I don't think he gained weight then I think he gained muscle. The problem was that he didn't workout hard enough in 03/04 so some of that muscle turned to fat which slowed him down and weakened his productivity, he was still arguably the best player in the league those years and was the best center so its not like he performed poorly even if he could have been better had he kept himself in peak condition.

[jaypo]

To all those that say he didn't work hard enough, maybe he worked as hard as he could. Ever think about that? How many of you have kids? Imagine having 6 of them, being a multimillinaire, owning several businesses, and playing in the NBA. How could you possibly expect him to spend his entire offseason working on his jumper??? You guys scrutinize what he didn't do FOR HIS GAME, but you leave out what he did for everything else- like getting his college degree, raising 6 kids, and help the police rid the streets of child predators. Coversely, what did Kobe do? He worked on his jumper and raped somebody! What a leader, aye???? So tell me again who's offseasons were more productive to society????

[Andrewchos]

I'm done here, before I go here is a small video reminder of just how good the Diesel was.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewBnHq04CRg&feature=fvw[/youtube]

Its a great video with a bunch of rare HD clips, I highly recommend it.

[Bruh Man]

This is Kobe/Duncan they are superior defensively and also compliment each other much better than the other duo.

[Bruh Man]

To all those that say he didn't work hard enough, maybe he worked as hard as he could. Ever think about that? How many of you have kids? Imagine having 6 of them, being a multimillinaire, owning several businesses, and playing in the NBA. How could you possibly expect him to spend his entire offseason working on his jumper??? You guys scrutinize what he didn't do FOR HIS GAME, but you leave out what he did for everything else- like getting his college degree, raising 6 kids, and help the police rid the streets of child predators. Coversely, what did Kobe do? He worked on his jumper and raped somebody! What a leader, aye???? So tell me again who's offseasons were more productive to society????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5417748

On Kobe : "[...] We'll be on the plane, playing cards. Kobe will walk up, stop the game and say, "Ron, come to the back of the plane." Then, he'll show me some tape and say, "Look at this. Here's what you need to do." I'll go back to my seat, and then he'll walk up to Shannon Brown, stop the card game and do the same thing. And it doesn't matter if you're sleeping. He'll wake you up and show you things you've never thought about. He puts so much time and passion into the game. I have no problem following somebody who's worth being followed, who works as hard as me. I will follow Kobe anywhere."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4YWdUQIZSI[/youtube]

[Andrewchos]

lol @ Kobe being a leader, maybe over the past 2 years he's been "ok" in that category but he wasn't even capable of playing that role until 06/07 and is (imo) still a truly EGO driven individual. Yes he wants to win, but not for the right reasons and if he doesn't get exactly what he wants he will just throw the team under the bus and pad his stats or do whatever.

[joeyAdaMan]

lol @ Kobe being a leader, maybe over the past 2 years he's been "ok" in that category but he wasn't even capable of playing that role until 06/07 and is (imo) still a truly EGO driven individual. Yes he wants to win, but not for the right reasons and if he doesn't get exactly what he wants he will just throw the team under the bus and pad his stats or do whatever.

shaq has thrown literally everyone he's come across in his career under the bus lol and once again being the best player doesn't make you a great leader

[Andrewchos]

Not really, he's made a few snide remarks about a handful of former player's & coaches he played with and the Media of course reports on it for whatever reason. 99% of those comments except for a few directed towards Bryant came long after he had already left those franchises so I don't see why its an issue. Also if your the unquestioned leader and best player on a 3peat team, how can you call that being a bad leader? He lead his team's to a ridiculous amount of success from 99-06 and other then Bryant and in the very end Buss he got along with everyone (while he was on their teams).

[joeyAdaMan]

u mite b rite

[MSGBallerz]

There are 3 top 5-10 players all time in this discussion. I'm going with the team that has two of them.

TD/Kobe.

[MLSE]

Tim and Kobe have proven loyal to the teams they played for and won with and I would want to start my franchise with that. Not to mention their killer defense and good mix of talents.

[LascelleL]

There are 3 top 5-10 players all time in this discussion. I'm going with the team that has two of them.

TD/Kobe.

My thoughts exactly