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The early pulse in the West

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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#21 » by Wannabe MEP » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:41 am

JohnVancouver wrote:It's nice to see this kind of optimism, sincerely ... I think it's a little overly-optimistic for the above reasons. Until we 1) add a big who can give us a presence at both ends and 2) commit to playing solid, aggressive team defense we are going to be a botheration to many good teams but ultimately not a serious contender.

1) You might be right. I'm all for trading JRich for a quality big. But I haven't given up on the Lopez/Frye/Warrick trinity if Lopez can get healthy (I don't believe in Hedo at pf at all).

2) Solid, aggressive team defense? We have it: it's sitting on the bench. I believe in this team. I don't believe in this starting unit.

JohnVancouver wrote:The "awful" Clippers are actually in better shape than we are.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :o

JohnVancouver wrote:Can you imagine this Suns team with Griffin?

That would be so insanely beautiful.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#22 » by Wannabe MEP » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:59 am

airReacker wrote:
Los Soles wrote:
airReacker wrote:could some one describe me how come this freaking squad let "We have a problem, Houston" had 100 attempts in one game?

Ok
1) the pace was fast, as it usually is for both these teams, so there were simply a lot of possessions
2) the Suns had more fast break points than usual, which speeds the pace of the game.
2) they are a smart team, so they shoot a lot of "key or three," which leads to more offensive rebounds
3) They got behind and started jacking up threes quickly, which quickened things and led to more long rebounds (and therefore, more offensive rebounds).
4) We shot 38 free throws; they shot 15 free throws. A higher percentage of their possessions ended in field goal attempts, but not necessarily to their advantage.
5) Gentry inexplicably overplayed our starters, who don't rebound well.


They had 31 assists and got ONLY 14 turnovers. In second half they scored 71 points with shooting over %70 percentage, budy. You still insists on "Leadership" creates huge effect on team defense?

What the hell are we talking about? I said Nash was underrated as a defender. You said we gave up 100 field goal attempts. I explained why we gave up 100 field goal attempts.

I didn't say that Nash can magically turn Hedo into a power forward, JRich into less of a bonehead, 47-year-old Grant Hill into 23-year-old Grant Hill, and Channing Frye into Dwight Howard.

I don't like our starting unit defensively. I don't think they should play together. I still like this Suns team, and I still think Nash is underrated as a defender. AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!!
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#23 » by airReacker » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:22 pm

We are not yelling ,at least not me. Origin of our discussion was your reply to my opinion about Cats disaster you came up with a quote as if everything is connected to Nash (or in other words to a single player) on defense and offense. I already accepted, Nash is underrated as a defender and Leadership has an effect on team defense but not huge in my opinion. The problem is beyond Nash or any other additional key player. That was all i wanted to say. Case closed on my side.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#24 » by YFZblu » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:32 pm

airReacker wrote:We are not yelling ,at least not me.


WOOSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#25 » by airReacker » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:54 pm

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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#26 » by JohnVancouver » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:23 pm

Los Soles wrote:1) You might be right. I'm all for trading JRich for a quality big. But I haven't given up on the Lopez/Frye/Warrick trinity if Lopez can get healthy (I don't believe in Hedo at pf at all).

--- I also want to see the three of them with enough time to get used to playing together and yes, Hedo at the 4 is bad bad bad

2) Solid, aggressive team defense? We have it: it's sitting on the bench. I believe in this team. I don't believe in this starting unit.

--- agree again

JohnVancouver wrote:The "awful" Clippers are actually in better shape than we are.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :o

--- you wouldn't like to see the bulk of these guys here?



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2010-11 Roster
NUM PLAYER POS HT WT DOB FROM YRS
3 Al-Farouq Aminu F 6-9 215 09/21/1990 Wake Forest R
12 Eric Bledsoe G 6-1 195 12/09/1989 Kentucky R
45 Rasual Butler G-F 6-7 215 05/23/1979 La Salle 8
31 Jarron Collins C 6-11 249 12/02/1978 Stanford 9
34 Brian Cook F 6-9 250 12/04/1980 Illinois 7
5 Baron Davis G 6-3 215 04/13/1979 UCLA 11
4 Randy Foye G 6-4 213 09/24/1983 Villanova 4
15 Ryan Gomes F 6-7 245 09/01/1982 Providence 5
10 Eric Gordon G 6-3 215 12/25/1988 Indiana 2
32 Blake Griffin F 6-10 251 03/16/1989 Oklahoma R
9 DeAndre Jordan C 6-11 265 07/21/1988 Texas A&M 2
35 Chris Kaman C 7-0 265 04/28/1982 Central Michigan 7
1 Craig Smith F 6-7 265 11/10/1983 Boston College 4
13 Willie Warren

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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#27 » by JohnVancouver » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:24 pm

airReacker wrote:Image


that scares me and i don;'t know why
"Deng and Mozgov was some 1980s Clippers sh*t. So, so dumb" - Sedale Threatt

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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#28 » by Wannabe MEP » Wed Dec 8, 2010 1:40 pm

Time for an update.

The big three in the West now looks like a big four, with L.A. fourth (unless Bynum comes back in rhythm). New Orleans has dropped out of the lead pack, so early skepticism was warranted.
1. Spurs
2. Mavs
3. Jazz
4. Lakers

Phoenix now sits 8th, with Oklahoma City and Denver easily in striking distance. In Hollinger's rankings, Phoenix is 16th overall, but the point gap is not significant from top 10 or bottom 10. If the Suns have a good showing in these next couple home games, they'll rise quickly in Hollinger's rankings. I'm guessing they'll be about 12th.

Not that there's any reason to care about these projections this early, but...I could see LA. ending up fourth or fifth, with a tough first round matchup (Denver or New Orleans) and San Antonio second round. I don't think L.A. would survive both rounds. I thought L.A. was vulnerable last year, but got lucky with favorable matchups (I almost wanted the Spurs to beat the Suns because I thought the Spurs had a better shot at knocking off L.A., and my hatred for the Lakers runs almost as deep as my love for the Suns). I think L.A. is even more vulnerable this time. In terms of matchups, Phoenix might be in great shape as a sixth or seventh seed, taking our chances against Utah and Dallas.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#29 » by YFZblu » Wed Dec 8, 2010 3:49 pm

Los Soles wrote:Phoenix might be in great shape as a sixth or seventh seed, taking our chances against Utah and Dallas.


I'm not sure about Dallas, but I see your point---Utah/Dallas are two teams that have never been able to get over the hump themselves and are vulnerable on any given year.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#30 » by Frank Lee » Wed Dec 8, 2010 9:30 pm

We are sisterkissers once again... its even hard to imagine a trade that would change that. Quaetion is, at what point do we begin to play 'for next yr' ?
What ? Me Worry ?
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#31 » by YFZblu » Thu Dec 9, 2010 1:47 am

Frank Lee wrote:We are sisterkissers once again... its even hard to imagine a trade that would change that. Quaetion is, at what point do we begin to play 'for next yr' ?


Not as long as the Suns have Steve Nash. Tanking with him on the team would be a travesty, IMO.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#32 » by JasonDaPsycho » Thu Dec 9, 2010 4:34 am

swe_suns wrote:I agree with everything u said expect for 2 things:

1. It will be extremely difficult to win games against teams with good/tall PF/C:ers. We will eventually need to trade for a PF without giving up nash/jrich. If we don't do this we will be screwed in the playoffs (if we make it that is).

2. We beat the lakers by making 22-40 3pters. Altough we played them pretty good at home you just cannot compare this team to the team in the WCF with Amare. Sorry but Lakers-Suns 10/11 in the playoffs would end in 5 games tops. Also you say that they didn't upgrade, are you serious? Their bench is much improved and I fail to see any weakness in that team right now.

Not that worried about the Spurs or Hornets though.

I totally agree with you, except for the Spurs part.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#33 » by Wannabe MEP » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:50 pm

Time for an update.

In Hollinger's power rankings, we're sitting at a very disappointing 20th. Hollinger currently has us out of the playoffs, finishing 10th in the West. I think we're better than that, and much better than the doom and gloomers think we are. Here are several reasons things aren't as bad as they may seem:

1) Of course we struggled against half-decent teams with Channing Frye as our only legitimate defensive big. The biggest shift from last year's team is not the first team's offense, or the second team's offense, or even the first team's defense. The biggest shift from last year is the second team's defense. What do you expect when Warrick plays the five and Turk plays the four? Those days are officially over with Gortat's arrival and Fropez's return. Pray for Fropez's health.

2) Wait, but Fropez has already been back for a few games, and we still suck! False. Our last four games were: @Dallas, @OK City, @San Antonio, and Miami. All four of those teams are in Hollinger's top 7. We played one of those without Nash, two without JRich, Turk or any of their replacements, and one trying to incorporate brand new pieces. None with Carter. If you still think 1-3 during that stretch is some huge disappointment, you're a fool.

3) Yes, we're 20th according to Hollinger, but the rating difference between the teams in the middle is tiny. The gap between #7 (Thunder) and #20 is smaller than the gap between Boston at #1 and L.A. at #6. A few good wins and the Suns could still easily move into the top 10.

4) We've had an incredibly tough schedule. 3rd toughest according to Hollinger. All of our losses have been to either very good teams, or decent teams with very good frontcourts (while we were incredibly thin there).

5) We have had five bad losses. Three came when Nash was missing, and the other two came against the two teams that I believe defend us the best (Miami and Portland) in transition times: the first game of the season when we had no idea what the hell we were doing, and after Fropez had just gone down.

6) I've been reading everything I can about Vince Carter and pouring over his stats. I'm starting to think he could be the best shooting guard Nash has ever played beside. As far as I can tell, he is extremely underrated, especially defensively.

We still have to work on chemistry and figure out rotations, but we just massively upgraded defensively, and, as always, we're going to be a very good offensive team with Nash. Wins are definitely on the way.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#34 » by rsavaj » Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:21 pm

Los Soles wrote:Time for an update.

In Hollinger's power rankings, we're sitting at a very disappointing 20th. Hollinger currently has us out of the playoffs, finishing 10th in the West. I think we're better than that, and much better than the doom and gloomers think we are. Here are several reasons things aren't as bad as they may seem:

1) Of course we struggled against half-decent teams with Channing Frye as our only legitimate defensive big. The biggest shift from last year's team is not the first team's offense, or the second team's offense, or even the first team's defense. The biggest shift from last year is the second team's defense. What do you expect when Warrick plays the five and Turk plays the four? Those days are officially over with Gortat's arrival and Fropez's return. Pray for Fropez's health.

2) Wait, but Fropez has already been back for a few games, and we still suck! False. Our last four games were: @Dallas, @OK City, @San Antonio, and Miami. All four of those teams are in Hollinger's top 7. We played one of those without Nash, two without JRich, Turk or any of their replacements, and one trying to incorporate brand new pieces. None with Carter. If you still think 1-3 during that stretch is some huge disappointment, you're a fool.

3) Yes, we're 20th according to Hollinger, but the rating difference between the teams in the middle is tiny. The gap between #7 (Thunder) and #20 is smaller than the gap between Boston at #1 and L.A. at #6. A few good wins and the Suns could still easily move into the top 10.

4) We've had an incredibly tough schedule. 3rd toughest according to Hollinger. All of our losses have been to either very good teams, or decent teams with very good frontcourts (while we were incredibly thin there).

5) We have had five bad losses. Three came when Nash was missing, and the other two came against the two teams that I believe defend us the best (Miami and Portland) in transition times: the first game of the season when we had no idea what the hell we were doing, and after Fropez had just gone down.

6) I've been reading everything I can about Vince Carter and pouring over his stats. I'm starting to think he could be the best shooting guard Nash has ever played beside. As far as I can tell, he is extremely underrated, especially defensively.

We still have to work on chemistry and figure out rotations, but we just massively upgraded defensively, and, as always, we're going to be a very good offensive team with Nash. Wins are definitely on the way.


Excellent post.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#35 » by Miklo » Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:35 pm

Los Soles wrote:Time for an update.

In Hollinger's power rankings, we're sitting at a very disappointing 20th. Hollinger currently has us out of the playoffs, finishing 10th in the West. I think we're better than that, and much better than the doom and gloomers think we are. Here are several reasons things aren't as bad as they may seem:

1) Of course we struggled against half-decent teams with Channing Frye as our only legitimate defensive big. The biggest shift from last year's team is not the first team's offense, or the second team's offense, or even the first team's defense. The biggest shift from last year is the second team's defense. What do you expect when Warrick plays the five and Turk plays the four? Those days are officially over with Gortat's arrival and Fropez's return. Pray for Fropez's health.

2) Wait, but Fropez has already been back for a few games, and we still suck! False. Our last four games were: @Dallas, @OK City, @San Antonio, and Miami. All four of those teams are in Hollinger's top 7. We played one of those without Nash, two without JRich, Turk or any of their replacements, and one trying to incorporate brand new pieces. None with Carter. If you still think 1-3 during that stretch is some huge disappointment, you're a fool.

3) Yes, we're 20th according to Hollinger, but the rating difference between the teams in the middle is tiny. The gap between #7 (Thunder) and #20 is smaller than the gap between Boston at #1 and L.A. at #6. A few good wins and the Suns could still easily move into the top 10.

4) We've had an incredibly tough schedule. 3rd toughest according to Hollinger. All of our losses have been to either very good teams, or decent teams with very good frontcourts (while we were incredibly thin there).

5) We have had five bad losses. Three came when Nash was missing, and the other two came against the two teams that I believe defend us the best (Miami and Portland) in transition times: the first game of the season when we had no idea what the hell we were doing, and after Fropez had just gone down.

6) I've been reading everything I can about Vince Carter and pouring over his stats. I'm starting to think he could be the best shooting guard Nash has ever played beside. As far as I can tell, he is extremely underrated, especially defensively.

We still have to work on chemistry and figure out rotations, but we just massively upgraded defensively, and, as always, we're going to be a very good offensive team with Nash. Wins are definitely on the way.


Thank you. Need more of this around.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#36 » by Sundamental » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:15 pm

Los Soles wrote:Time for an update.

In Hollinger's power rankings, we're sitting at a very disappointing 20th. Hollinger currently has us out of the playoffs, finishing 10th in the West. I think we're better than that, and much better than the doom and gloomers think we are. Here are several reasons things aren't as bad as they may seem:

1) Of course we struggled against half-decent teams with Channing Frye as our only legitimate defensive big. The biggest shift from last year's team is not the first team's offense, or the second team's offense, or even the first team's defense. The biggest shift from last year is the second team's defense. What do you expect when Warrick plays the five and Turk plays the four? Those days are officially over with Gortat's arrival and Fropez's return. Pray for Fropez's health.

2) Wait, but Fropez has already been back for a few games, and we still suck! False. Our last four games were: @Dallas, @OK City, @San Antonio, and Miami. All four of those teams are in Hollinger's top 7. We played one of those without Nash, two without JRich, Turk or any of their replacements, and one trying to incorporate brand new pieces. None with Carter. If you still think 1-3 during that stretch is some huge disappointment, you're a fool.

3) Yes, we're 20th according to Hollinger, but the rating difference between the teams in the middle is tiny. The gap between #7 (Thunder) and #20 is smaller than the gap between Boston at #1 and L.A. at #6. A few good wins and the Suns could still easily move into the top 10.

4) We've had an incredibly tough schedule. 3rd toughest according to Hollinger. All of our losses have been to either very good teams, or decent teams with very good frontcourts (while we were incredibly thin there).

5) We have had five bad losses. Three came when Nash was missing, and the other two came against the two teams that I believe defend us the best (Miami and Portland) in transition times: the first game of the season when we had no idea what the hell we were doing, and after Fropez had just gone down.

6) I've been reading everything I can about Vince Carter and pouring over his stats. I'm starting to think he could be the best shooting guard Nash has ever played beside. As far as I can tell, he is extremely underrated, especially defensively.

We still have to work on chemistry and figure out rotations, but we just massively upgraded defensively, and, as always, we're going to be a very good offensive team with Nash. Wins are definitely on the way.



OK, I'll be a bit of a dissenter here. Why not? Someone has to do it. :D

You're setting yourself up for a big letdown on Vince Carter. Pour over all the stats you want but have you actually watch him play recently? He's a shadow of his former self. He's AT BEST, an average defender. He just doesn't move well enough to be a good defender. And as to being a great shooter, maybe in his early years but that was at least five years ago. Sure, he's still good but I'll take JRich any day and in the past I'd surely take Bell or Barbosa.

As to the defensive upgrade, maybe if you look at the pieces but that's not how NBA defense is played. Here's a post from over on BSOTS in yesterdays thread on defense. It was posted by suns68 so I not trying to claim it as mine but I certainly see the wisdom in it.

"But I have heard this refrain time and again from the Suns, going all the way back to the days of Truck Robinson: “We’ve brought in this great defender (or group of them) and we’re really going to shut some people down now.”

It NEVER happens.

Why?

Because offense and defense are different challenges in the NBA and need to be approached differently in a strategic sense.

You can bring in an elite scorer and immediately improve your offense and start winning some ball games. See New York Knicks for reference.

But adding more defenders to a porous defense is like a bad tennis player buying a new racket when really, he needs to work on his ground stroke.

Our defensive struggles are not rooted in the individual skills or effort of our players, but in systemic breakdowns, blown assignments and awkward switches that create mismatches and lanes to the basket for the other team.

It’s a teamwork issue and it’s the direct result of the constant roster shuffling that’s been going on for most of this decade.

If you look at really great defensive teams, they generally have one thing in common: They have a core group who have played together for several seasons. Even piss-poor individual defenders become pretty good when they know what to do and what their teammates are going to do in a given situation.

We can’t create that overnight. And it’s not fair to coach Gentry for us to expect that. "

To be fair I didn't cut out the part were suns68 thinks Gentry's not to blame. I disagree with this. Sure it's not all his fault. Some is the players and some has to go to the FO but he's been here long enough to have made improvements.

We'll see how this all works out. I think we're trying to improve the defense and will lose a more on the offensive end than we gain.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#37 » by DRK » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:33 pm

I ws confident about the Suns until the Charlotte game, where we lost by 20+. Ever since then, I felt the confidence and heart of this team dropped off a bit, until about last week.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#38 » by Wannabe MEP » Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:04 pm

Sundamental wrote:OK, I'll be a bit of a dissenter here. Why not? Someone has to do it. :D

Totally.

Sundamental wrote:We'll see how this all works out. I think we're trying to improve the defense and will lose a more on the offensive end than we gain.

We simply had to do something to upgrade the defense. That was obvious. When you're trying to contend, or at least make the playoffs, you can't have the worst defense in the NBA.

I'm going to keep repeating this over and over: Nash has quarterbacked the best offense in the NBA every single year for a decade, with multiple coaches and a rotating cast beside him. The offense will be fine as long as Nash is on the court.

The key is defense.

Sundamental wrote:As to the defensive upgrade, maybe if you look at the pieces but that's not how NBA defense is played. Here's a post from over on BSOTS in yesterdays thread on defense. It was posted by suns68 so I not trying to claim it as mine but I certainly see the wisdom in it.

"But I have heard this refrain time and again from the Suns, going all the way back to the days of Truck Robinson: “We’ve brought in this great defender (or group of them) and we’re really going to shut some people down now.”

It NEVER happens.

Why?

Because offense and defense are different challenges in the NBA and need to be approached differently in a strategic sense.

You can bring in an elite scorer and immediately improve your offense and start winning some ball games. See New York Knicks for reference.

But adding more defenders to a porous defense is like a bad tennis player buying a new racket when really, he needs to work on his ground stroke.

Our defensive struggles are not rooted in the individual skills or effort of our players, but in systemic breakdowns, blown assignments and awkward switches that create mismatches and lanes to the basket for the other team.

It’s a teamwork issue and it’s the direct result of the constant roster shuffling that’s been going on for most of this decade.

If you look at really great defensive teams, they generally have one thing in common: They have a core group who have played together for several seasons. Even piss-poor individual defenders become pretty good when they know what to do and what their teammates are going to do in a given situation.

We can’t create that overnight. And it’s not fair to coach Gentry for us to expect that. "

Ok, these are some good points, and I think the part about teamwork is 100% true. But there are numerous examples of good defenders coming together and creating great defensive teams quickly. Extremely obvious examples include the Celtics a few years ago and the Heat this year. The Lakers went from 24th to 5th in defensive rating after significant personnel changes the year Gasol arrived.

Two great defenders on the court won't make up for three horrendous ones, so I agree: adding one or two strong links won't fix a defective chain. But you gotta do something if your chain is broken. In particular, you have to eliminate the weakest links.

Our weakest links were:
1) Nonexistent frontline
2) Turk
3) JRich

For the first time in the Nash era, the Suns have a roster filled with good defenders. We have one poor defender in the 11-man rotation (Warrick) a couple of mediocre defenders essential to our offense, but every other player is a good defender. Sure, the team needs time to gel, but I'd rather watch 5 decent/good defenders work it out than watch...Turk play the four, Warrick play the five, and JRich run around like a chicken with his head cut off.
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Re: The early pulse in the West 

Post#39 » by BurningHeart » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:27 pm

Solid post by LS, but I definitely don't share as much optimism about Carter. I've seen his dog and pony show too much over the years.

Here's hoping to surprises.

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