Official Trade Thread XV: 12/22/10 - 5/3/11

[TGW]

My goodness, Dat. Way to make me revisit the trade and just appreciate the more how bad it was for the Wizards.

Unreasonable to hope Lewis has anything much left. (I do strongly believe Ryan Anderson is better than Shart). Not good for the Wiz if he doesn't.

So Gilbert shooting 25% from the field for the Magic doesn't count for anything because Lewis is "old"?

The biased, agenda driven rhetoric is so over the top on this board.

[mhd]

mhd, that's just brutal. Lyrical Rico couldn't do any worse.

I understand the interest in Cousins, but what's the fascination with Garcia? I never understood why so many on this board like him. Seems like a overpaid fringe NBA player to me.

Well, COusins has the most value by far in the trade (locked into a rookie deal for 4 years). Sac wants to unload one of its bad deals (Udrich or Garcia) and Garcia's last year is a team option, so he only has 2 more years after this year. Sometimes you need to take a bad deal to get an asset. Cousins can be that type of player IMO. Besides, Garcia is an excellent 3 point shooter and can swing between the 2 and 3. He's not Matt Carroll or Diop crap.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

TGW, Gil traded now is fine. This team sucks and I am happy for him. I posted that I haven't written off Rashard only to have Dat and Ruz say he's done. Nobody but you mentioned Gil.

In light of their comments having Lewis play PF is bad.

I don't know why you put Gil in your response other than your own possible agenda. Bet you like Flip as coach, don't you?

I think Gil might have had more trade value had Grunfeld handled PR better. The Wizards couldvhave traded for Lewis any time. A much better deal would have been Carter's or Curry's expiring deal if possible. Gil with better PR might have fetched either deal. I really wonder where Lewis fits going forward, particularly with Flip prone to lean on vets.

[Dat2U]

My goodness, Dat. Way to make me revisit the trade and just appreciate the more how bad it was for the Wizards.

Unreasonable to hope Lewis has anything much left. (I do strongly believe Ryan Anderson is better than Shart). Not good for the Wiz if he doesn't.

So Gilbert shooting 25% from the field for the Magic doesn't count for anything because Lewis is "old"?

The biased, agenda driven rhetoric is so over the top on this board.

Biased? Agenda? You of the 300+ posts which nearly 80% seem dedicated to bashing just one player?

I remember some of the game threads where every post from you would be a rant about how terrible Gilbert is, even when he played well.

He's gone now so why aren't you happy? Or better yet, why don't go to the Orlando board and tell them how much he sucks?

[TGW]

TGW, Gil traded now is fine. This team sucks and I am happy for him. I post that I haven't written off Rashard only to have Dat and Ruz say he's done.

In light of their comments having Lewis play PF is bad.

I don't know why you put Gil in your response other than your own possible agenda. Bet you like Flip as coach, don't you?

Well, you're using age and games played to judge the trade -- well I'm using actual production. That's why I mentioned Gilbert because...yes...he was traded for Lewis. If were going to say Lewis is done, then Gilbert is done using that same criteria -- he'd old (by basketball terms) and he stinks on the court.

I guess my agenda, if I were to have one, is that both Lewis AND Arenas suck. They are both vastly overpaid, past their prime, and pretty darn terrible on the court. The thing is...I've accepted that Lewis sucks and I wouldn't even fathom trying to debate otherwise. The Gilbert man-crush committee will still try and act like Gilbert isn't freaking horrible right now.

re: Flip....not sure why you even mentioned him, but I noticed your agenda against him as well. I'll just say this...he's a highly paid babysitter dealing with a bunch of babies. Is he one of the best coaches in the league? No....he's about average. The Wizards just got rid of one child...maybe they can get rid of the other. Then maybe Flip can coach an actual team and not a bunch of immature kids.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I make no bones about how I feel about Flip.

Gil could be just as done as Rashard, but I doubt it. He can still play at Billups' speed and be effective. Wisely, Orlando's coach is starting Richardson and Nelson. Redick is playing more than Gil.

If Flip doesn't lean heavily on Lewis the deal I will be shocked.

EDITED TO ADD: 12/27 I am pleasantly surprised with Lewis. He can still ball.

[LyricalRico]

mhd, that's just brutal. Lyrical Rico couldn't do any worse.

I understand the interest in Cousins, but what's the fascination with Garcia? I never understood why so many on this board like him. Seems like a overpaid fringe NBA player to me.

Well, COusins has the most value by far in the trade (locked into a rookie deal for 4 years). Sac wants to unload one of its bad deals (Udrich or Garcia) and Garcia's last year is a team option, so he only has 2 more years after this year. Sometimes you need to take a bad deal to get an asset. Cousins can be that type of player IMO. Besides, Garcia is an excellent 3 point shooter and can swing between the 2 and 3. He's not Matt Carroll or Diop crap.

Yeah but if MEM is willing to give up Mayo+Haddadi for Blatche, why not just deal directly with them? Then if you want to also try to do something around McGee for Cousins (although I'd be 100% against it), you can deal directly with Sacto.

Memphis has been a team I was looking at as a potential Blatche destination since they apparently aren't extending Randolph. Blatche would be a cheaper option for them and they've got a number of young players on rookie contracts to send our way.

[Induveca]

Why would you want Mayo and Haddadi? Not bashing just curious as to how you see that working out with Young,

[LyricalRico]

Why would you want Mayo and Haddadi? Not bashing just curious as to how you see that working out with Young,

I was more-so commenting on the structure of that particular trade rather than making a case for Mayo. I'd be more interested in Henry+Arthur.

[Ruzious]

TGW, Gil traded now is fine. This team sucks and I am happy for him. I posted that I haven't written off Rashard only to have Dat and Ruz say he's done. Nobody but you mentioned Gil.

For the record, I didn't say he's done. This is what I said:

I haven't seen a study, but I think the average player start physically declining by age 28. I think he's 31, and clearly his stats have declined. And he did not look athletic in his 1st game with the Wiz. He can help, but he is on the downside.

[MF23]

Memphis moves Thabeet, Arthur.

For

Washington's Blatche.

I figure Memphis won't resign Gasol and Randolph. They'll choose Gasol. Blatche has a appealing contract and he can replace Randolph.

I don't think Thabeet is more than a body that can rebound and block shots. Arthur is average who will at least produce. It's not an exciting trade but it relieves Washington from having to babysit Blatche.

[Hoopalotta]

Memphis moves Thabeet, Arthur.

For

Washington's Blatche.

I figure Memphis won't resign Gasol and Randolph. They'll choose Gasol. Blatche has a appealing contract and he can replace Randolph.

I don't think Thabeet is more than a body that can rebound and block shots. Arthur is average who will at least produce. It's not an exciting trade but it relieves Washington from having to babysit Blatche.

Wow, shoot for the moon there, guy. I mean, I guess it doesn't hurt to ask, but we might get a bad rep if we're too transparent in our avarice.

[Dat2U]

Memphis moves Thabeet, Arthur.

For

Washington's Blatche.

I figure Memphis won't resign Gasol and Randolph. They'll choose Gasol. Blatche has a appealing contract and he can replace Randolph.

I don't think Thabeet is more than a body that can rebound and block shots. Arthur is average who will at least produce. It's not an exciting trade but it relieves Washington from having to babysit Blatche.

The only thing Thabeet can do is take up space, look clueless and react a half-second late to any & everything. Arthur is a 6-8 soft jump-shooting tweener who doesn't defend or rebound.

At least we know Blatche can play and has some skill even if he's a complete asswipe. This trade is selling low b/c neither Thabeet or Arthur offer much in the way of production, toughness, b-ball IQ or ability to positively impact the game.

[closg00]

The Washington Wizards have a need for a backup center, and Hasheem Thabeet would fit in nicely in that role. Thabeet could become a situational player for the Wizards, being the type of big man that is a great rebounder but a liability offensively. Starter JaVale McGee, on the other hand, is a good offensive player, but he has been criticized in the past for being a poor rebounder. Thabeet could come on to provide the Wizards with boards when they need them at the cost of offense from the center position.

In return for Thabeet, the Wizards could send Yi Jianlian to the Grizzlies. With Rashard Lewis now in D.C., Yi becomes expendable. He is a seven-footer that has good range on his jumpshot. He would draw big bodies away from the paint on offense, giving all the Grizzlies' scoring options more room to attack the paint with.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5528 ... to/page/10

BR speculation.

[nate33]

Thabeet is posting a PER of 5.6 and he averages 5.2 rebounds per 36 minutes. It's tough to see how he'll help this team at all. Hilton Armstrong is a better player.

On the other hand, we have no cap room this summer (assuming Young is extended and the salary cap stays even or drops a bit) and Thabeet's contract has a team option in 2012. Effectively, trading Yi for Thabeet costs us nothing whatsoever except for the money in Ted's pocket. We'd have the same effective cap flexibility in 2011 either way (MLE would be available) and we'd have the same cap room in 2012. Basically, we would be trading the utterly worthless Yi for an utterly worthless-with-upside Thabeet.

The only opportunity cost would be if there are other deals available whereby we could exchange expiring contracts for a 2012 contracts, but get a pick along with the returning contract.

[Ruzious]

Thabeet is posting a PER of 5.6 and he averages 5.2 rebounds per 36 minutes. It's tough to see how he'll help this team at all. Hilton Armstrong is a better player.

On the other hand, we have no cap room this summer (assuming Young is extended and the salary cap stays even or drops a bit) and Thabeet's contract has a team option in 2012. Effectively, trading Yi for Thabeet costs us nothing whatsoever except for the money in Ted's pocket. We'd have the same effective cap flexibility in 2011 either way (MLE would be available) and we'd have the same cap room in 2012. Basically, we would be trading the utterly worthless Yi for an utterly worthless-with-upside Thabeet.

The only opportunity cost would be if there are other deals available whereby we could exchange expiring contracts for a 2012 contracts, but get a pick along with the returning contract.

Fwiw, I think Yi is the one with upside - not Thabeet. No doubt Yi continues to badly under-achieve and his performance has stunk, but he has NBA skills, NBA athleticism, and NBA size. The only one of those 3 that Thabby has is size. He's a good athlete for his size, but his lack of agility doesn't work in today's NBA without tremendous BBIQ. But that's a minor disagreement unless the light bulb finally goes on for Yi.

[nate33]

Maybe so.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm certain that Yi will not be a viable rotation player in this league. Absolutely 100% certain. I haven't seen enough of Thabeet to make the same conclusion. I'll defer to you if you are certain that Thabeet is even worse than Yi.

All I'm saying is that trading Yi for Thabeet is better than simply letting Yi walk. We need to work out some kind of BOYD transaction with his contract or else we get nothing. I imagine there are better options other than Thabeet (like Posey plus a future pick or something like that) - but Thabeet is better than nothing.

[rockymac52]

^as far as the Posey trade...

How about Yi + Thornton for Posey + 2011 1st round pick (lotto protected)

Yi and Thornton expire this year, so the Pacers can shave Posey's $7.5 million off their cap. The Pacers are going to have boatloads of cap space this offseason, so with Posey off the books, that only helps even more.

Also, Yi would probably sadly start for the Pacers at the 4 when he's healthy. Josh McRoberts is their starting PF right now. Thornton would be a solid backup for Granger as well.

We take on Posey for the next year because cap space this summer doesn't matter to us, and Posey will be gone for the 2012 summer where we'd theoretically have cap space.

Posey wouldn't command that many minutes, but he'd be a serviceable player in the meantime. He can shoot the three ball, but he doesn't shoot too many. He's a good on ball defender, despite his age starting to slow him down. And he can also rebound pretty well for a SF. So we're looking at improvements at rebounding, defense, and range. Sounds like a talent upgrade as well, although not by much considering his age.

And most importantly, we get a 1st round pick in the middle of this year's draft, or maybe next year if the Pacers don't end up in the playoffs.

Sounds pretty good to me. Only flaw is if the Pacers really want to hold onto their 1st round pick, in which case I wouldn't blame them.

[Rafael122]

I mean it wouldn't hurt to have Thabeet. My thing is the Wizards would need to bring in a big man coach. Maybe that's just me, but Thabeet is a work in progress (putting it mildly).

[rockymac52]

It's been bugging me for a while, but I always see people say things like, "we should bring in a big man coach" or "we need a new medical staff", and I always wonder if such a thing really exists.

I know some guys were doing an analysis of the medical staff in another thread, and I don't know what the final conclusion was there, but I feel like Leonsis hasn't made a new, better medical staff a priority because there simply isn't one in existence. The doctors who do surgery on our players are simply the best doctors in the local area, or in some cases, the best doctor in the nation at that particular surgery (think Dr. James Andrews). The training staff is the group that actually deals with our players on a day to day basis. They're in theory the ones who advise on when a player is healthy enough to return to playing basketball. History isn't in our training staff's favor, but I'm of the thought that it isn't necessarily all their fault. I guess the biggest complaint with them is that they rush players back from injury too often, which often has resulted in a reinjury or less than 100% playing ability. But I tend to think that's more of a hindsight is 20/20 scenario. When Arenas hurts his knee badly requiring surgery, and then comes back and reinjures the knee, it's easy to say we brought him back too soon. Especially when his play isn't what we were accustomed to. But maybe he just wasn't as good as he was before because he suffered a major injury, and it's foolish to think he'd definitely come back as good as he always was. And then Arenas is quoted saying he's a natural competitor and always wanted to rush back from his injury, and then blames the training staff for letting him play again, saying it's their job to step in and say "no gilbert, you're not healed, you can't play yet". I don't think it's fair to believe that's the case. Injuries happen. They're accidents. We know that all too well. But when you have a major injury, even if you go to physical therapy and recover well, and you're up to 100% playing capability with no pain or discomfort, the injury still lingers underneath for some guys. Not to mention that injuries again, are accidents. Just because someone suffered an accidental injury to his knee once doesn't mean that he's invulnerable to accidentally injuring that same knee again. If anything, it's the opposite. Our trainers could have done every single thing the "right" way, and the injury still could have happened again. Especially with knees! They're athletes. They are big - tall and heavy - and they run around full speed for hours and hours every single day of their lives. They put a lot of weight and stress on their knees, especially. We shouldn't be surprised when our most athletic players suffer knee injuries. It's common sense.



Anyways, back to my original point. "The Wizards need to bring in a big man coach". Do they not already have one? Okay maybe we haven't read about our current "big man coach" like we read about it when Patrick Ewing was brought in to help Kwame develop. Maybe we see Flip and Cassell as "guards" coaches. Maybe they are. But they do plenty of work with the big men too. And I'm willing to bet another one of our assistants focuses on the big men. I don't think we'd be much better off bringing in a "big name" big man coach. Who are the credible big man coaches? Patrick Ewing? He was garbage as far as I know when he worked with Kwame. Most of that was probably Kwame's fault, but Ewing didn't work a miracle or anything. Who's to say he'd succeed with Thabeet, McGee, and/or Blatche? None of them really seem to have the will of a great player. Players who have the will to train endlessly in order to become the best in the game already do so. They won't suddenly start working hard once Ewing or another former star big man comes into town. To think so would be naive. The Wizards already give McGee and Blatche plenty to work on, it's more that they choose not to follow up on that work to the fullest extent (pure conjecture, to be fair). Ewing's working with Dwight Howard now. Arguably the best big man in the game. He didn't get there solely by his physical attributes. I don't see a huge improvement from Howard since Ewing has come to town. He's still getting better every year, but that's because he's a young player who has lots of potential, and he's working hard for it. I personally feel like Howard would be coming along just the same if Flip and Cassell were his coaches.

But, at the end of the day, the ins and outs of the game at this level are things we'll never know for sure. All we really know about our assistant coaches and our medical staff is what we read about them, and how we interpret it. We get to see them be the head coach a game or two in the offseason during summer league. And I'm sure none of us were really paying attention to how our assistant coaches "coached". We just don't know. We don't know what they do in practice. We don't know what they do during the games. We don't know what they do on the side. We just don't know.

I'm sure there IS a "big man coach" out there who's actually the best at his job. But I don't think we have any way of knowing. The Wizards front office as well as other NBA front offices might have more knowledge about the assistant coaches around the league and in college than we do, but I still don't know how much they know about the subject. I think it's one of those things where there are some guys who are good at what they do and some that aren't so hot, but they're more so someone to blame when the team isn't winning games and individual players aren't playing as well as we expect them to. This is kind of how all coaches in all sports are, in my opinion, but we know a hell of a lot more about how the head coaches operate and what they do than we do about the assistants.