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McGraw: Bulls SG issues

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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#81 » by BR0D1E86 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:27 pm

I am not using that statement to prove he was cheap. I am suggesting that the type of players the Bulls brought in and the salaries that were payed to the other players on those teams does suggest that JR will not pay top dollar for players.

What else should the Bulls have done? They’re within about a million of the salary cap. There’s not much else they could have done. What shooting guard was on the market after Boozer and the Miami thing shook out that the Bulls should have spent top dollar on?
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#82 » by BR0D1E86 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:29 pm

A fiscally responsible trade is Deng for Jackson & filler.

Fiscally responsible, but not basketball responsible. Trading better players for worse players rarely is.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#83 » by DropStep » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:37 pm

BR0D1E86 wrote:
I am not using that statement to prove he was cheap. I am suggesting that the type of players the Bulls brought in and the salaries that were payed to the other players on those teams does suggest that JR will not pay top dollar for players.

What else should the Bulls have done? They’re within about a million of the salary cap. There’s not much else they could have done. What shooting guard was on the market after Boozer and the Miami thing shook out that the Bulls should have spent top dollar on?


Agree. I don't think the Bulls were thrilled with their options, and I agree with what they did as plan B in the meantime - sign four solid talented guys to pretty reasonable contracts, including one who can back up Rose, so that they can mix and match lineups for different opponents. Maybe one of those guys emerges as a clear starter at a bargain rate; if not, they can act as a bridge until an upgrade becomes available. If you don't have one great guy, throw four guys at the problem until you can find one. Made sense to me, still does. Ronnie Brewer, especially, seems like not a bad guy to have around until the next MJ makes himself known.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#84 » by BR0D1E86 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:41 pm

Agree. I don't think the Bulls were thrilled with their options, and I agree with what they did as plan B in the meantime - sign four solid talented guys to pretty reasonable contracts, including one who can back up Rose, so that they can mix and match lineups for different opponents. Maybe one of those guys emerges as a clear starter at a bargain rate; if not, they can act as a bridge until an upgrade becomes available. If you don't have one great guy, throw four guys at the problem until you can find one. Made sense to me, still does. Ronnie Brewer, especially, seems like not a bad guy to have around until the next MJ makes himself known.

I think it’s pretty obvious they weren’t happy with the options at that point, thus the contracts they gave to Watson, Brewer and Korver are meant to be very tradable over the next year as they wait for a trade option to open up.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#85 » by Bulltalk » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:42 pm

o2cats wrote:Again, it is not a luxury tax problem, but a possible extension problem. I think that these can all be part of the new CBA.
Soft cap at a level of the %BRI similar to today’s -> The owner will start with a lower number but will eventually give something similar.

Harder cap -> set at approximately equal to current luxury tax level, owners would want to closer to current cap. Bird rights, and exceptions still work up to the hard cap. Luxury tax of 2x amount over the soft cap, versus current 1x.

Hard cap -> Teams over the hard cap would not have to immediately cut players, but cannot even sign draft picks, or use Bird rights, until they get below the threshold, and pay 3x for any salary over the hard cap limit. Expect to see teams sending out picks, and other assets to take good players of their rosters.

Max 3 year deals -> No player options, only team options, larger signing bonus, cap hit over non-option years

End restricted FA -> Bone to players

Rookie contracts structure remains the same, but scale decreases 15%, draft picks of teams over the hard cap go into a pool for a supplementary draft based teams finish, if not sold, or traded before the draft.

No max salary -> More balance around the league, little chance for another Heat situation, unless players would be willing to take 50% of market value, instead of 90%.

If these were part of the new CBA, other teams would be able to outbid the Bulls for Rose, as they could not exceed the hard cap. At the very least multiple teams will have to send out great assets to dump salary, so being able to move $10M of SJax expensive, if even possible.


I'm not worried about CBA phantoms now. Nor do I think our management should be. This is the reality now, this is what we deal with. We cross that bridge when we come to it.

Besides, what if these doomsday CBA scenarios DON'T come to pass? Then it was all much ado about nothing. We let phantoms handcuff us from improving our team in a year when we could well make a legitimate run for the glory. That doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, is any CBA agreement going to come to pass which is going to go drastically against the best interests of certain key owners/franchises and their best interests? I tend to think not.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#86 » by imagge » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:01 pm

DropStep wrote:
BR0D1E86 wrote:
I am not using that statement to prove he was cheap. I am suggesting that the type of players the Bulls brought in and the salaries that were payed to the other players on those teams does suggest that JR will not pay top dollar for players.

What else should the Bulls have done? They’re within about a million of the salary cap. There’s not much else they could have done. What shooting guard was on the market after Boozer and the Miami thing shook out that the Bulls should have spent top dollar on?


Agree. I don't think the Bulls were thrilled with their options, and I agree with what they did as plan B in the meantime - sign four solid talented guys to pretty reasonable contracts, including one who can back up Rose, so that they can mix and match lineups for different opponents. Maybe one of those guys emerges as a clear starter at a bargain rate; if not, they can act as a bridge until an upgrade becomes available. If you don't have one great guy, throw four guys at the problem until you can find one. Made sense to me, still does. Ronnie Brewer, especially, seems like not a bad guy to have around until the next MJ makes himself known.



Oh I'm sorry, I was using past history about the Bulls championship years and the players JR/Krause brought in during the 90s to show JR has not paid players on contending teams. Even through the championship yrs outside of MJ JR did not bring in high priced players.

Edit: JR's past business moves with the Bulls does not reveal a willingness to pay the luxury tax. Hence RIP and Jax and probably Mayo will be out of the equation. So it is no surprise to me that as suggested in another thread that the Bulls are looking at Martell Webster. A much cheaper option over the next 3 years than the other 3 SG mentioned.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#87 » by Tommy Udo 6 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:11 pm

BR0D1E86 wrote:
A fiscally responsible trade is Deng for Jackson & filler.

Fiscally responsible, but not basketball responsible. Trading better players for worse players rarely is.


Correct - but I dont consider Deng a very good player nor a very sturdy one.

SJax meets more of a need for us right now.

Besides, Deng can be replaced by a committee of Brewer/Korver/Johnson
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#88 » by Red Larrivee » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:14 pm

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:Correct - but I dont consider Deng a very good player nor a very sturdy one.

SJax meets more of a need for us right now.

Besides, Deng can be replaced by a committee of Brewer/Korver/Johnson


So you're basically saying, move our SG problem to SF. Great thinking.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#89 » by panthermark » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:15 pm

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:
BR0D1E86 wrote:
A fiscally responsible trade is Deng for Jackson & filler.

Fiscally responsible, but not basketball responsible. Trading better players for worse players rarely is.


Correct - but I dont consider Deng a very good player nor a very sturdy one.

SJax meets more of a need for us right now.

Besides, Deng can be replaced by a committee of Brewer/Korver/Johnson


What is the difference between Brewer/Korver/Bogans at SG and Brewer/Korver/Johnson at SF?

Deng is a good basketball player. Sturdy? Not so much...
But dumping Deng for a player that will be 33 when the off's starts does not make a lot of sense. Besides, S-Jax isn't that great of a shooter to begin with.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#90 » by RyGuy24 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:17 pm

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:
BR0D1E86 wrote:
A fiscally responsible trade is Deng for Jackson & filler.

Fiscally responsible, but not basketball responsible. Trading better players for worse players rarely is.


Correct - but I dont consider Deng a very good player nor a very sturdy one.

SJax meets more of a need for us right now.

Besides, Deng can be replaced by a committee of Brewer/Korver/Johnson

Huh? We're trying to upgrade the SG position because it apparently can't be fully replaced by a committee of Brewer/Korver/Johnson. Why would it all of a sudden be acceptable at the SF spot?

And regardless, I don't see why Charlotte would want to deal for a large contract when unloading Jackson.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#91 » by Tommy Udo 6 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:23 pm

Deng has Duke (NC) connections and the Charlotte team would be interested in him as a gate attraction. Besides, they probably will not get many offers of expirings so they may settle for Deng
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#92 » by RyGuy24 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:31 pm

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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#93 » by Bulltalk » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:32 pm

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:Deng has Duke (NC) connections and the Charlotte team would be interested in him as a gate attraction. Besides, they probably will not get many offers of expirings so they may settle for Deng


I'm with DuckIII on moving Deng for SJax. It's mostly a lateral move to me in terms of a true talent/competitive upgrade for our team.

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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#94 » by illiance » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:33 pm

Duck is right, trading Deng for Jackson is a lateral move. Now you would have no SF. Oh wait, JJ can start now like many of you are begging. That'll sure help! Or you could move Jackson to his normal SF spot and have *wait for it* Keith Bogans starting!

If Mayo can be had for a combo of Bulls 2011 1st rounder and one of Asik/Taj/Charlotte Pick with fillers then you do it. Otherwise, the clear and ONLY choice is JR Smith. You can get him while not giving up any of Charlotte Pick/Asik/Taj. Hell you could also dump Keith Bogans in there too. Plus he creates that salary cap flexibility that everyone wants since he'll be an expiring. If he works, extend him, if not let him go and have 6 million in salary to spend on something else in the offseason. Low risk, high reward. It's the only logical move.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#95 » by philly035 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:37 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:
Tommy Udo 6 wrote:Correct - but I dont consider Deng a very good player nor a very sturdy one.

SJax meets more of a need for us right now.

Besides, Deng can be replaced by a committee of Brewer/Korver/Johnson


So you're basically saying, move our SG problem to SF. Great thinking.


sounds good to me, because putting those guys against the other teams scoring sf/pf in the game is a great defensive plan. I'm sure thibs has already thought of that.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#96 » by VinnyChase » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:41 pm

illiance wrote:Duck is right, trading Deng for Jackson is a lateral move. Now you would have no SF. Oh wait, JJ can start now like many of you are begging. That'll sure help! Or you could move Jackson to his normal SF spot and have *wait for it* Keith Bogans starting!

If Mayo can be had for a combo of Bulls 2011 1st rounder and one of Asik/Taj/Charlotte Pick with fillers then you do it. Otherwise, the clear and ONLY choice is JR Smith. You can get him while not giving up any of Charlotte Pick/Asik/Taj. Hell you could also dump Keith Bogans in there too. Plus he creates that salary cap flexibility that everyone wants since he'll be an expiring. If he works, extend him, if not let him go and have 6 million in salary to spend on something else in the offseason. Low risk, high reward. It's the only logical move.


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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#97 » by Red Larrivee » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:43 pm

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:Deng has Duke (NC) connections and the Charlotte team would be interested in him as a gate attraction.


They really wouldn't.

There's zero gain in dealing Deng for Jackson. It's a lateral move.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#98 » by Bulltalk » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:55 pm

illiance wrote:Duck is right, trading Deng for Jackson is a lateral move. Now you would have no SF. Oh wait, JJ can start now like many of you are begging. That'll sure help! Or you could move Jackson to his normal SF spot and have *wait for it* Keith Bogans starting!

If Mayo can be had for a combo of Bulls 2011 1st rounder and one of Asik/Taj/Charlotte Pick with fillers then you do it. Otherwise, the clear and ONLY choice is JR Smith. You can get him while not giving up any of Charlotte Pick/Asik/Taj. Hell you could also dump Keith Bogans in there too. Plus he creates that salary cap flexibility that everyone wants since he'll be an expiring. If he works, extend him, if not let him go and have 6 million in salary to spend on something else in the offseason. Low risk, high reward. It's the only logical move.


I think people are conveniently forgetting how much of a headcase JR really is. This guy clearly has got emotional problems wrapped up like an eggroll inside of a manically dangerous ego. Steer clear of the rocks.

Chemistry IS important to this team. There are times when you take certain calculated risks on it, as we did with Rodman some years ago. But Rodman, just as with a guy like SJax, is a real team player, a real team competitor. I don't see this at all in a guy like JR.
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#99 » by SpongeWorthy » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:03 pm

Deng as a gate attraction...lol
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Re: McGraw: Bulls SG issues 

Post#100 » by illiance » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:08 pm

Bulltalk wrote:
illiance wrote:Duck is right, trading Deng for Jackson is a lateral move. Now you would have no SF. Oh wait, JJ can start now like many of you are begging. That'll sure help! Or you could move Jackson to his normal SF spot and have *wait for it* Keith Bogans starting!

If Mayo can be had for a combo of Bulls 2011 1st rounder and one of Asik/Taj/Charlotte Pick with fillers then you do it. Otherwise, the clear and ONLY choice is JR Smith. You can get him while not giving up any of Charlotte Pick/Asik/Taj. Hell you could also dump Keith Bogans in there too. Plus he creates that salary cap flexibility that everyone wants since he'll be an expiring. If he works, extend him, if not let him go and have 6 million in salary to spend on something else in the offseason. Low risk, high reward. It's the only logical move.


I think people are conveniently forgetting how much of a headcase JR really is. This guy clearly has got emotional problems wrapped up like an eggroll inside of a manically dangerous ego. Steer clear of the rocks.

Chemistry IS important to this team. There are times when you take certain calculated risks on it, as we did with Rodman some years ago. But Rodman, just as with a guy like SJax, is a real team player, a real team competitor. I don't see this at all in a guy like JR.

That's nice and all but there's risk with every player you trade for affecting your chemistry. The thing is that if you trade for Smith and it doesn't work and he becomes a problem, you simply send him home while only losing Watson and a late first rounder. The odds that either one of those pieces lost contributes to a title team is near zero. JR Smith is also playing for a contract and isn't on a team with a ton of loose cannons. Sure there is risk but the reward of his play far outweighs it.

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