Official Trade Thread XV: 12/22/10 - 5/3/11

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Sigh.  CCJ, your hate knows no limits.  I can't believe you are going to sit and complain about the lack of PT for the youngsters.  

There are only 14 big men (6-9 or taller) in the league who average more minutes than Blatche.  All 14 of them are posting a higher PER and most of them are all stars.  Blatche is being forcefed all the minutes he can handle and then some.

Blatche is not one of the youngsters I am concerned about and his minutes last game were too many.  As a matter of fact I think Booker can help by relieving Blatche 8-12 additional minutes.  No way Blatche needs to go 43 minutes without diminishing returns in the fourth.  Seraphin has size and energy.  Cartier Martin is way down the depth chart but if Flip made hi Nick's backup at SG he might be solid.  In the fourth this team stalls with at least thre energetic guys not having plated at all. 

There are only 18 centers in the league who average more minutes than McGee - a 22 year old with terrible b-ball IQ.

Part of what is wrong with this team IMO is overcorrecting McGee instead of letting him play through and not encouraging him to learn by doing.  Javale gets reflexively benched and bullied for missing a shot.  Yet, he's top ten in FG percentage.  He's labeled a poor rebounder. In fact he's top ten in ORB percentage.  He does that and folks say he doesn't defensive rebounding.  Folks ignore the shots ge alters and blocks.  All of that said, his minutes are NOT my concern.

And Young is now getting all the minutes he can handle since Arenas has been moved.

You can't have it both ways.  This team is giving a ton of undeserved minutes to young players.  You can't complain about the win loss record and complain about player development at the same time.

Nate, you are assuming the record would be worse playing undeveloped players.  How much worse than 7-22 would the team be playing Hinrich and Armstrong none?  

This team could run Wall, Young, Booker, Seraphin, and McGee all 32 minutes or until the foul out and just have them get out in transition and be better IMO.  All this stuff about basketball IQ is nice, but what about playing with reckless abandon and having fun?  It is a kid's game.  Sometimes the coaches need to get out of the way.  Sitting Seraphin on a losing team is just breeding discontent.  He and Booker together defend better than Blatche and McGee IMO.

Nate, it is the style of play and controlling, stifling approach that kills this team.  Wall is out of control a lot but not when he plays with guys that can keep up with him.  Play the fast guys together and bring grizzled vets off the bench.

For now, the lineup should be Wall, Young, Lewis, Blatche, and McGee.  The next four should be Howard, Hinrich, Booker, and Seraphin.  The last  two need lot more minutes.  

Wall has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to complain about. (Not that he is complaining.  Only you fools on the internet are complaining).  Wall has been made the centerpiece of this team and EG is doing everything he can to build a roster to accommodate him.  He just jettisoned the former centerpiece and PG just to make sure that this is Wall's team.

[LyricalRico]

The team has been more functional and cohesive on the floor since the Arenas trade. If anything, Wall should be pleased with the front office moves.

And I'm not too worried that EG will blow the Blatche trade. He'll either trade him for another young player like Tyrus Thomas, or he'll discover that there isn't much market for Blatche right now so he'll stand pat. This reminds me of the summer after Haywood ripped his name off his locker. Everyone was scared that Haywood would be traded for pennies on the dollar. Not to worry. EG kept his cool. Haywood was retained and EG made EJ go reconcile with Haywood.

EG is not Wes Unseld. He doesn't make panic trades. The Arenas trade is a perfect example. EG tried to shop Arenas for an entire summer and then the first several months of the season before pulling the trigger. He clearly made sure that there weren't any better offers on the table.

Que Lyrical Rico with one of his stupid smilies.

Although I do disagree with the Haywood analogy. In that scenario, Ernie didn't have a problem with Haywood. His problem was with EFJ's baseless hate of 7-footers. It's totally different with Blatche. Flip and Blatche may not be BFFs but Flip clearly doesn't have a problem starting Blatche or playing him big minutes. The issue is with Blatche himself not being in the best shape, making bad decisions in games, and putting himself in bad situations off the court - all after receiving an extension that the organization was in no way obligated to give him.

Since the problem is directly between Ernie and Blatche, I think a Blatche trade could be closer than some think. I do agree that Ernie won't make the first move that presents itself, but I'm still expecting to see Blatche moved at the deadline. Especially if the team's record doesn't improve at all and they are loooking at a draft with legit PF prospects at the top. He'd have to play at a level we haven't seen yet to change that IMO.

[Ruzious]

Such is the life of a rookie PG, WizNas - as it were with Rose. Special is written all over him, but he's got larnin to do before he gets there. No doubt it will happen.

[WizarDynasty]

We need to shoot this Ernie having a problem with blatche out the water. Ernie had a problem with Arenas because Arenas thought he was a god and was treated like one. Arenas represented the era where Grunfeld had no concept of defensive talent.

Blatche may not be strong enough to post up on the block but he is probably a top 3 most skilled p/f in the league. No right handed powerforward can attack the left side of the floor like blatche can. Teams already design their defense to stop blatche from going to his right so he has evolved his game to go the left. Loosing blatche also would mean that we lost all the years of jamison training blatche offensively.

Blatche is basically an upgraded 7 foot version of Jamison. Blatche is the only reason that we were able to release jamison in the first place. There is no player on this team that has a better overall game that Blatche.

McGee is also developing and is showing improvement on both sides of the ball. We are not trading any of our athletic seven footers that other teams have to game plan against.
What this team could use is to bring in assistants that have had success getting results at improving young players reaction speeds on the coach (court). Maybe someone from Popovich's staff.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

WD I agree. Blatche is an upgrade over Jamison. In the right SYSTEM Antawn was a playoff stud and an all star.

Instead of giving Andray or McGee up at the wrong time, how about implementing a different system that fits personnel on this team?

[DMVleGeND]

They can't trade McGee and Blatche yet, especially McGee, unless we get better value in return. McGee is still a young player and he is actually playing pretty well. So many people talk about what he does wrong, like not getting defensive rebounds and letting big men and guards waltz into the main, but not enough people talk about the good things he does, like altering and blocking so many shots, being the best offensive rebounder in the league and shooting a high field goal percentage. He has so much potential and teams shouldn't let talent go to waste like this. He isn't skilled but he's very young and as he beefs up and improves his offensive game, he can become a top 10 center in the league.

They shouldn't trade Dray unless they get equal-or-better value in return. I'm scared EG feels obligated to make these trades because of the incident, but he shouldn't. To me, the fight wasn't that big of a deal and certainly isn't worth giving up two promising big men over. Blatche has been inconsistent this season, but the offseason injury has really affected him and I think us as fans and the FO has to be more patient with him. Plus, he's been playing with a nagging knee injury all season, so who knows if he's fully healthy right now. I think as he gets in shape and as he gets healthy, he will start to come around.

[closg00]

If Blatche does get traded, we could have gotten some sweet offers had he not received the increase, I hope he isn't unloaded for crap.

[Illuminaire]

I don't blame the coaching staff for too much (I think they've done a decent job, not a great one), but I am a little bewildered by how we use Blatche. Most of his plays appear to be isolations with very little off the ball movement. Blatche is at his best when he has the option to pass to a cutter in the flow of a play; he becomes a true triple-threat and is very difficult to defend.

Our PnR play seems pretty terrible too, not sure who to blame that on yet.

Regardless, the thought of trading 'dray for someone elses' crap is making me sick.

[Ruzious]

Hey Wiz fans, this is totally just going off the wiretap rumor which is most likely not true... just bored...

Was: McGee, Hinrich, Seraphin
Phi: Speights, LWill, (Exp-4M), 2nd, '11 1st (top 2prot)

Why? Philly gets a guy to back play C with Hawes, gives them some leverage to not overpay to resign him. Get a Vet to back up Holiday as we 'try' to make the playoffs. Seraphin--raw project (imo) but with Brand to mentor him, should be ready to start by the time he expires.

Why? Was gets an offensively gifted big in Speights, who has great chemistry with LWill. LWill is an explosive 6th man, who can handle heavy minutes if JWall misses time with injury, or is a great spark off the bench. Shave some money off of Hinrich's deal. Get a 1st with barely any protection, and a 2nd.

Thoughts?

No. I had high hopes for Speights, and he prove me wrong, unfortunately. Something like Blatche and Seraphin for Speights and the pick and filler might be worth discussing.

[WizarDynasty]

speights is a bum. I wouldn't want anyone from that horrible 76ers roster.
We have two of the top 10 under 25 bigmen in the league and everyone is shaking in their knees at the idea of facing these two monsters once their IQ's fully blossom. Blatche is close to their and McGee is actually showing that he can concentrate--just pay attention to all those wrinkles in his forehead...tremendous iq when focused...that has the league paranoid.

Blatche and McGee must be kept together at all costs, even if it means sacrificing Wall, which we don;t have to worry about. These two McGee and Blatche are both franchise players when fully healthy and reaching max basketball IQ and both will reach it, its just a matter of time and structure.

Blatche, McGee, Seraphin, and Booker have to be kept together at all cost. We have the most devastating bigman combination in the league for future years.

This team will be a nightmare if Ted can quickly get these guys to be able to diagnose the top 4 team of eastern conference playbook defensively. it's all based on Ted's ability to find a solution in "Ted we Trust".. he needs to use his expertise in technology to boost his teams basketball ability to quickly diagnosing elite teams playbook on offensivey and defensively. he needs a top basketball mind as personal consultant to design software for his teams competitive advantage and boost to his revenue.

[Ruzious]

Blatche is basically an upgraded 7 foot version of Jamison. Blatche is the only reason that we were able to release jamison in the first place. There is no player on this team that has a better overall game that Blatche.

Blatche's shooting skills may be somewhat similar to Jamison's, but - for better or worse - their playing styles couldn't be more different. Whenever Blatche gets the ball, he's going to keep it for several seconds. The offense goes in stall mode. He's going to take some dribbles and look around before making a real move. The chance for a turnover is very high.

When Jamison got the ball, there's no hesitation. The offense didn't come to an abrupt stop. The ball was consistently out of his hands within 2 seconds. His turnover rate was very low, and the offense flowed relatively smoothly.

[WizarDynasty]

Blatche is basically an upgraded 7 foot version of Jamison. Blatche is the only reason that we were able to release jamison in the first place. There is no player on this team that has a better overall game that Blatche.

Blatche's shooting skills may be somewhat similar to Jamison's, but - for better or worse - their playing styles couldn't be more different. Whenever Blatche gets the ball, he's going to keep it for several seconds. The offense goes in stall mode. He's going to take some dribbles and look around before making a real move. The chance for a turnover is very high.

When Jamison got the ball, there's no hesitation. The offense didn't come to an abrupt stop. The ball was consistently out of his hands within 2 seconds. His turnover rate was very low, and the offense flowed relatively smoothly.

no you got it wrong, jamison had the lowest assists number probably in the history of basketball for a p/f. jamison shot the ball when it was in his hands, whether it be a three pointer. That was the whole point with jamison, when he was younger he could score inside, as he got older, he did nothing but wait out on the perimeter for a kick out and shot it. he never created offense for anyone else, he never forced a double teams. Teams have their entire defense designed to stop blatche. in the replay, the celtics had rajon rondo chasing at blatche right, they have another help defender waiting for him in the paint and he still counter


all that with a spin back to right right after driving left on the baseline. it's in my signature. Jamison was a glorified Troy Murphy. he sat the perimeter and feasted when his man left to help double team but he couldn't help you when it mattered in the 4th quarter and defense started to tighten and not give him wide open shots. Blatche game is designed to create high percentage shots for others because



Blatche signature moves is that he can drive by his man on both the right side and the left side....that ability alone is why teams have to double blatche. blatche can attack whichever space defense gives him. if they crowd his right side he can attack to the left and that leaves the entire defense broken down.
blatche also being seven foot with long arms and ability to drive with both hands is why he is a major upgrade over jamison..plus blatche can stroke from the perimeter. he hasn't been hitting them as of yet but that can be attributed to the fact that he is playing with a new point guard hinrich and wall and both players look more for their own shot at this moment in time than finding blatche's sweet spots.

[LyricalRico]

^ First of all, thanks for the paragraphs.

Second, I don't think Ruz was making the case for Jamison as a facilitator for others. He was making the case that Jamison didn't hold the ball like Blatche does. If that meant shooting it, so be it. But Jamison was a master at getting his points within the flow of the offense and within a second or two of receiving the ball. That makes for a very fluid offense, unlike what we see with Blatche - the 4 other guys standing around waiting for him to do something.

Seems that you're pulling a "hands" with that post - speaking on what Blatche COULD do, rather than what he consistently does. For example, there is currently no reason for any team to double him. All he's doing lately is either turning the ball over or settling for jumpshots. Maybe he has the potential to be a guy teams might double from time to time, but he's currently not giving them any reason to.

[Ruzious]

WizNas, the low assist rate goes against absolutely nothing that I said.

He had the same turnover rate as assist rate. He wasn't a distributor or play-maker for other players. That wasn't his role. That's pretty obvious. Remember, one of us said that Blatche and Jamison are the same, except that Blatche is bigger, and it wasn't me.

You keep mentioning Blatche's left baseline moves over and over again. Have you ever mentioned that before? Is that because you saw him use that twice against Houston the other night... when they had a 6'6 guy guarding him?

[tontoz]

Blatche signature moves is that he can drive by his man on both the right side and the left side.

Blatche's signature move is a fadeaway jumper from 15 feet or more, frequently off balance, after dribbling between his legs at least once.

[WizarDynasty]

WizNas, the low assist rate goes against absolutely nothing that I said.

He had the same turnover rate as assist rate. He wasn't a distributor or play-maker for other players. That wasn't his role. That's pretty obvious. Remember, one of us said that Blatche and Jamison are the same, except that Blatche is bigger, and it wasn't me.

You keep mentioning Blatche's left baseline moves over and over again. Have you ever mentioned that before? Is that because you saw him use that twice against Houston the other night... when they had a 6'6 guy guarding him?

you are talking about the 6'6 guy who fouled blatche every play when blatche drove and the refs didn't call it. Blatche has got to create a lower dribble below the knee so that even if he is fouled on the driving with his left he can still keep his angle to the basket. blatche has very advanced left hand dribbling skills but he's got get his center of gravity lower and ball lower. That's not easy for a seven footer and he's already dribbling with left hand skill that 90 percent of the p/f's in the league can't do. blatche is better at driving to the rim than kevin Garnett just remember that, he has more power driving to basket than Chris bosh, he doesn't have as explosive a step but he's was pretty quick last year when he is healthy and he is only 24 so the odds are in our favor that will he will be healthy again since he is young still.

but yes Blatche gets fouled alot and refs dont' call it, he's got to up his game--meaning make his left hand even better at driving--adn dribbling lower to ground--many small forward can't even dribble well with their left hand and blatche has to dribble on par with a point guard if we wants to make a living driving that left baseline when refs don't blow the whistle.

i believe blatche will improve his left hand ball handling which is already superb and yes blatche was consistently fouled with no calls.

[DaRealHibachi]

Blatche is basically an upgraded 7 foot version of Jamison. Blatche is the only reason that we were able to release jamison in the first place. There is no player on this team that has a better overall game that Blatche.

Blatche's shooting skills may be somewhat similar to Jamison's, but - for better or worse - their playing styles couldn't be more different. Whenever Blatche gets the ball, he's going to keep it for several seconds. The offense goes in stall mode. He's going to take some dribbles and look around before making a real move. The chance for a turnover is very high.

When Jamison got the ball, there's no hesitation. The offense didn't come to an abrupt stop. The ball was consistently out of his hands within 2 seconds. His turnover rate was very low, and the offense flowed relatively smoothly.

+100000

This is exactly what I meant with my post in the "Amazingly Sucky Dray" thread...

Dray makes the whole offense stall when he gets the ball... He needs to take quicker decisions, whether it is by shooting the ball or passing it off...

The thing I noticed though, the whole offense tends to just stand around and look at him when he gets the ball... I dunno if it's by design (Flips offense) or just "not wanting" to move... Strange...

[sfam]

Blatche signature moves is that he can drive by his man on both the right side and the left side.

Blatche's signature move is a fadeaway jumper from 15 feet or more, frequently off balance, after dribbling between his legs at least once.

Word. I hate it when he does that.

[LyricalRico]

^ And don't forget the obligatory pump-fake that fools no one.

[Ruzious]

Blatche is basically an upgraded 7 foot version of Jamison. Blatche is the only reason that we were able to release jamison in the first place. There is no player on this team that has a better overall game that Blatche.

Blatche's shooting skills may be somewhat similar to Jamison's, but - for better or worse - their playing styles couldn't be more different. Whenever Blatche gets the ball, he's going to keep it for several seconds. The offense goes in stall mode. He's going to take some dribbles and look around before making a real move. The chance for a turnover is very high.

When Jamison got the ball, there's no hesitation. The offense didn't come to an abrupt stop. The ball was consistently out of his hands within 2 seconds. His turnover rate was very low, and the offense flowed relatively smoothly.

+100000

This is exactly what I meant with my post in the "Amazingly Sucky Dray" thread...

Dray makes the whole offense stall when he gets the ball... He needs to take quicker decisions, whether it is by shooting the ball or passing it off...

The thing I noticed though, the whole offense tends to just stand around and look at him when he gets the ball... I dunno if it's by design (Flips offense) or just "not wanting" to move... Strange...

Dray must have read your post, because he took your advise to start the 4th quarter v Indy - and looked brilliant. He made 2 straight rhythm catch and shoot jumpers, and followed them up with a fake shot and quick pass to the corner - earning an assist on a 3 pointer. Suuuuwheeeeet!