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GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10

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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#141 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Jan 1, 2011 7:55 pm

Wizards2Lottery wrote:
mhd wrote:CCJ, when Javale is the worst man-to-man defender in the NBA, what can a coach do? I wouldn't rate Javale as agood as Haywood early because Wood would always was a very good man-to-man defender. McGee is simply a horrible defender man-to-man. I understand why Flip pulls him. He gives up so many easy baskets because he gets pushed aside by everyone whom he guards.


And Blatche thinks he's a jump shooting big man when no team respects his outside shot and he himself can't hit a jumper for ****.

Seraphin is a physically gifted player who has very little NBA skill.

Booker has his nights and then all of a sudden he'll look like Michael Ruffin out there.

This team is terrible at this point. The coaching leaves a lot to be desired but the players do as well.
+1 on everything you said, W2L.

The big question is does this coaching style with it's preferences even come close to getting the best physical gifts out of unskilled players, while balancing playing time of veteran jump shooters? Is there flexibility and open competition or does the team tend to lose the same way using a short rotation?
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#142 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:12 pm

go'stags wrote:I sure wish we could play Booker and especially Seraphin, though.

In regards to Wall scoring 25 with 4 assists, as others have mentioned other players missed numerous open shots he fed them.

But the great thing about the 25 points was, they were in a spurt when we really needed them. He just decided he was going to score, and did, which is a great great sign. Thats a franchise player. He did not take many shots, at leats until that point, to get the 25.

As much as I praise McGee and say Blatche is better than average, I wouold have no problem seeing the Wizards run with Wall, Young, Lewis, Booker, and Seraphin. Best perimeter defenders with two best frontcourt defensive tandem. Sub Howard for McGee for speed and quickness. Leave Lewis in to have a skilled big with the two rookies.

The team isn't stuck with Blatche or McGee, and doesn't have to trade either. One or both can come off the bench. At times it's better to bring superior players off the bench.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#143 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:32 pm

dobrojim wrote:I think there are potentially serious downsides to having
KS/JM as a BIGs tandem. edit to add - even though armstrong is playing OK, KS needs a few minutes more often than he is getting them now. Defending a post player like Boozer would have been a good opportunity for that to happen. For 3-5 minutes.


I agree it might not work playing KS with JM. I don't see a big downside with 8-23 in mind.


AT showed he doesn't want to be ignored. When no one except Wall and Lewis could throw it in the ocean, he came in and went 4-4.


I hope AT gets traded to a contending team. He and Howard are in contract years and both deserve minutes and numbers.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#144 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:44 pm

dobrojim wrote:Wall can't allow that kind of efficient production
by opp PGs. His D was notably poor compared to
the rest of the team. As much as I do believe in
Wall for the future, I think right now, when Kirby
is ready, he should go back to being starter. For
another month or so anyway, not necessarily for the
whole season. Wall will do better with fewer minutes
and seeing the opening of the game from the bench.
He can still play 30+ minutes if he sits out the first
5-8 min of the game. The last thing we need is for
him to break down. And also because experience is
the best avenue for his growth and development.


Hinrich is better defensively by far than Wall. I think your approach makes sense but I would probably just roll with Wall as starter and sit him for Kirk when his mistakes get egregious. I would rather see the team try and establish a frenetic pace with Wall getting speedy players involved. Chart his mistakes over time and see where they can decrease. I would let him play through, but I would use Kirk more in the middle of games, as he is a grinder.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#145 » by pancakes3 » Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:54 pm

sorry CCJ, as soft as AB is and as slight as mcgee is, they are a way better defensive frontcourt than booker/seraphin. Blatche isn't a bad defender at all. he bodies up, long long long, and doesn't get faked out. mcgee has pogo sticks for legs and can swat just about any shot put up within 5 feet by darn near anyone. you stick 6'7 booker at PF and 6'9 seraphin in as the front court and you're just asking for other teams to test you. sure they'll play as tough as nails but they're not going to challenge shots as well as blatche/mcgee.

i have no problems with them coming in off the bench against the other team's 2nd unit though. a bruising frontcourt is exactly what you want in a 2nd unit. neck and yi could not see a single minute from now on in favor of bookerphin and i wouldn't bat an eye.

i still say we play through these growing pains, espeically with Mcgee on the defensive end.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#146 » by The Consiglieri » Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:57 pm

Wizardspride wrote:I pretty much share your assessement Induveca.

I believe this team is going to be bad for a long time. And I mean much longer than many on this board anticipate.

I could be wrong but its just a gut feeling that I have.

In fact, the Skins are going to be good faster than Wizards.



I think we're going to long for the days of getting knocked out in the 1st rd by The Cavs. :cry:


I doubt that very much. Why pine for the days when we were 9th or 10th best and had zero hope of ever winning anything. Leonsis wants to build the right way, because Pollin and Grunfeld refused to acknowledge reality, and kept the underachieving bunch intact for an extra 2 seasons, the rebuild was delayed. We are basically a year or two behind schedule. Leonsis wants to build in a similar fashion to the Caps, which took 6 years to fashion a playoff caliber team with title aspirations. Player development in hockey is nearly identical to player development in baseball, players are rarely ready before they are 21-23 years old in hockey, cut that in half for nbad guys, and it's probably another 2-3 seasons of awfulness if we draft well. I do not anticipate leonsis wanting short cuts, and if EG wants a trade, i doubt Leonsis will sign off, if it involves draft picks, or kids. He wants a rebuild, we may ship off the kids that dont get it and wont, but we're not gonna try and build with vets, i imagine the only vets he'll bring in, are vets that can accelerate wall's growth and complement his game, nothing else.

And for the record in reference to another poster, trading blatche and McGee as part of some package for Melo would be beyond foolish. We may end up settling for pennies or less on the dollar for Blatche, but we aren't shipping both of them away for a guy who would then upset the leadership dynamic of the team and the foundation of the team with Wall as its centerpiece. That makes less than zero sense, especially since Melo is not an elite max contract, franchise guy, he's in the tier below, like Arenas once was, and those guys wont win you titles, and in this case, would be disruptive to what we're actually trying to accomplish.

Don't be disheartened, last year and this year were about cratering and getting something of value to build around so 2013-2023 could be way better than 1980-2010, this is a long con so to speak, not a short one, and the only way to win a long con is to play it out smart, and with thoroughness, acknowledging and respecting every detail. There are no short cuts beyond the enormous luck we had last spring in landing Wall. Imagine how bottom of the barrel we'd be if we'd actually ended up with the sixth-8th overall pick as expected we would have ended up with a spare part not worth building anything around. Focus on the good news in that, and that this team is properly tanking this year so Wall can hopefully land a genuine partner to play and grow with in a Barnes, or Sullinger, or Irving, or one of the Jones kids, or the Euro. Getting too good too soon could stunt the potential. This is good medicine , long term so long as we get the right pieces.

As for the redskins, i very much doubt it, they wasted a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th pick on vet pieces (McNabb, Brown) that won't be around when the team is any good, andby beating Jville last week they played their way out of affordable striking distance for a franchise QB, the one piece necessary to build anything of long term consequence in the NFL (check it out, these days, its true, don't have one, you don't contend for titles, or consistently for anything at all). They are old, and well paid, and not young in virtually any of the places they need to be, and lost two of the earliest picks in the third and 4th round that could have been spent on young, hungry future starters and difference makers that would be around a long time. The redskins are going to suck and/or be sub-mediocre for probably 2-3 more years as well, and unlike the boulez, they may never get the piece needed to actually bring back the glory years. , a genuine QB. It's funny, the redskins are the only team in the league thats been around any substantial amount of time that's failed to draft and develop a franchise QB. The last time we did that was during the great depression with Sammy Baugh. Since then we've traded for or signed as a FA the only quality QB's we've ever had. Is it any wonder the redskins have been arse for the better part of half a century other than that blip of time that was 1971-1978, and 1982-1992? Meanwhile the Cowboys ahve drafted and developed five different franchise QB 's since 1960, the eagles have done so with at least 3 and probably 4, the giants have done so twice, and hell, even the cardinals have done so with Jim Hart, and Neil Lomax. We're the only team too stupid to figure out how to actually win in the NFL, especially in modern times with the game completely and quite specifically tailored today to be exploited by elite QB's.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#147 » by Induveca » Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:10 pm

CCJ I'm right there with you.....

Another issue is Saunders is fighting for his job and he knows it....he'll go with the vets under the assumption it is the best approach for HIM to win now. But major issue is the vets don't care outside of Howard. If they do it's for selfish motivations as well.

Seraphin/Booker/Young/Wall/McGee is a smart lineup. All of those guys outside of McGee have shown they are all willing to compete and prove themselves regularly. Blatche, while talented is either too stupid or too lazy to accept he should be banging in the post.

Thorton/Howard/Armstrong/Hinrich have no place on the team at this point. The decision was made to roll with our youth, build their confidence and improve the culture. A bunch of selfish malcontent former 3rd and 4th option vets logging major minutes is a recipe for not only failure this year, but lomg term failure.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#148 » by AceDegenerate » Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:45 pm

Seriously, I've heard enough about how Ted Leonsis has all the answers.

We never talked this much about Abe Pollin and he did a hell of a lot more for the city and franchise thus far than Fat Ted.

Everybody wants to make the man out to be a savior and he hasn't done jack for this franchise yet.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#149 » by clancy » Sat Jan 1, 2011 9:50 pm

Induveca wrote:Thorton/Howard/Armstrong/Hinrich have no place on the team at this point. The decision was made to roll with our youth, build their confidence and improve the culture. A bunch of selfish malcontent former 3rd and 4th option vets logging major minutes is a recipe for not only failure this year, but lomg term failure.


This is incredibly unfair to the group of veteran players we have on this team.

I have very few issues whatsoever if Flip et al decide to throw the kids in the fire and see what happens. Personally, I don't think it's the best way to learn the game, but I would like to see more development minutes for a couple of the rookies. However, having solid vets on a team can be a huge benefit to the kids in both practice and in the games. On top of that, a few of those "kids" were a part of the culture problem that needed to be addressed.

None of the players you mentioned have done anything whatsoever to merit being called a "selfish malcontent" this season, in spite of the challenge of losing.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#150 » by Induveca » Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:05 pm

Saying someone has selfish interests in a contract year is not the same as being a selfish person. They are looking for a contract on another squad next year...period. I don't blame them. It's a smart business move on their part.

My point is why help them build their resume while we get nothing in return? The decision was made to go with youth......Thornton is out partying with our problem youth, he isn't helping. Howard wants a contract next year, Armstrong is one of our Ruffins or Don Reids who ONLY play on our bottom dweller type teams. Hinrich is a solid pro but doesn't fit the culture of a team going with drafted youth and a 3 year plan.

It's not unfair, it's business and Flip will play these guys purely because they are vets and in his mind gives him the best shot at extending his coaching career and prove he was more than KG and an already championship level Pistons squad.

Think he doesn't realize in a lockout shortened season, coming off a sub 20 win season he will be shown the door?
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#151 » by clancy » Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:09 pm

^^^
That is not at all what you said in your first post. "Selfish malcontent" =/= "selfish interests in a contract year"
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#152 » by Induveca » Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:15 pm

clancy wrote:^^^
That is not at all what you said in your first post. "Selfish malcontent" =/= "selfish interests in a contract year"


Read between the lines. I don't think these guys are bad people, they aren't happy on a losing squad.....and need numbers for a new contract.

Ok call them "temporarily motivated in the interest of personal finance". Better? Not trying to bash the guys, they are trying to do what is best for their career and personal stability
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#153 » by clancy » Sat Jan 1, 2011 10:59 pm

Induveca wrote:
clancy wrote:^^^
That is not at all what you said in your first post. "Selfish malcontent" =/= "selfish interests in a contract year"


Read between the lines. I don't think these guys are bad people, they aren't happy on a losing squad.....and need numbers for a new contract.

Ok call them "temporarily motivated in the interest of personal finance". Better? Not trying to bash the guys, they are trying to do what is best for their career and personal stability


I get you are now saying that what you said is not what you meant.

I don't get how you think what you are now saying is in any way similar to "selfish malcontent." Even now knowing your interpretation of this phrase, I don't see how you get there. A selfish malcontent is the kind of guy you'd rather send home than have around the team. As far as I can tell, the guys you specifically named have done nothing but play hard. They may not be superstars, but they haven't complained and have done what they can to help the team.

So I'm fine with what you now say you meant - but "selfish malcontent" is bashing. I don't know how reading between the lines gets you to any other meaning. Malcontent is pretty strong language.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#154 » by dandridge 10 » Sat Jan 1, 2011 11:13 pm

Induveca wrote:CCJ I'm right there with you.....

Another issue is Saunders is fighting for his job and he knows it....he'll go with the vets under the assumption it is the best approach for HIM to win now. But major issue is the vets don't care outside of Howard. If they do it's for selfish motivations as well.

Seraphin/Booker/Young/Wall/McGee is a smart lineup. All of those guys outside of McGee have shown they are all willing to compete and prove themselves regularly. Blatche, while talented is either too stupid or too lazy to accept he should be banging in the post.

Thorton/Howard/Armstrong/Hinrich have no place on the team at this point. The decision was made to roll with our youth, build their confidence and improve the culture. A bunch of selfish malcontent former 3rd and 4th option vets logging major minutes is a recipe for not only failure this year, but lomg term failure.


I am all for giving Seraphin and Booker more minutes, but the Seraphin/Booker/Young/Wall/McGee is not a smart line-up. This would likely be one of the worst possible offensive line-ups in the NBA, by far. Other than Young, there is no other player in that line-up that could consistently hit an open shot. All an opposing team would have to do is stick one man on Young and have the rest pack the lane to prevent Wall from penetrating....watching Seraphin, Booker, McGee and Wall clang open jumpers would simply be painful to watch. I'm all for rewarding hustle players with more playing time, but it is not smart to put them in a position that they cannot succeed. It will only stunt their growth, not foster it. You can say all you want about Flip as a coach, but there is not another coach in the NBA that would start 3 rookies or even play 3 rookies at one time unless it was a blow out of a game.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#155 » by Induveca » Sat Jan 1, 2011 11:54 pm

Dandridge,

But we're already the worst team in the league......

Wouldn't you prefer to attempt to improve for the future with our actual future vs our rentals?

I think what would help, is the coach being given a directive to play the youth and a guarantee he won't be fired. Officially declare the year what it is, a complete loss and time to play our kids and get them serious game experience.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#156 » by Hoopalotta » Sun Jan 2, 2011 12:11 am

The best way to play the rookie youth is to dump Thornton and Armstrong, possibly along with Yi - Seraphin gets about 10 minutes at center and Booker a somewhere over that at the 4; I don't see those guys swinging down though, much less with both of them and McGee on the court at once. That's the most offensively inept front court in the league with Booker having hit about 3 jump shots all year.

But Lewis and Howard don't get in the way to me if Lewis is seeing just spot minutes at the 4 as they're really splitting the 3 slot, where we have no prospects anyway. A Lewis buyout thereafter might not be that painful if we can slash the savings off the non-guaranteed year, much like Turkoglu did when he was traded to Phoenix. But I don't see how those guys are hurting us or what alternatives there are. They've played in two finals series and over 120 playoff games. I definitely wouldn't overlook the value of the vets from a cultural and defensive standpoint, though it would be nice if we had more legit developmental pieces to soak some know-how up. Dray regressing is killing us there as our top scoring options are just bordering on dysfunctional and you'd have liked to have seen him as a pupil.

I agree we try and get minutes for the rookies, but not so drastic as the Wall-Young-Booker-McGee-Seraphin lineup.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#157 » by dandridge 10 » Sun Jan 2, 2011 1:17 am

Induveca wrote:Dandridge,

But we're already the worst team in the league......

Wouldn't you prefer to attempt to improve for the future with our actual future vs our rentals?

I think what would help, is the coach being given a directive to play the youth and a guarantee he won't be fired. Officially declare the year what it is, a complete loss and time to play our kids and get them serious game experience.


Induveca,

I didn't say that I would not play the youngsters. I agree we need to play Seraphin and Booker more minutes. My point is that putting all three rookies in together is not putting them in a situation to succeed and will only stunt their growth, not help it. Again, I don't have a problem with playing the rookies more minutes. I have a problem playing Wall, Booker, Seraphin, McGee and Young at the same time and I think 99% of the coaches in the NBA would to.
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Re: GT Indiana vs Washington 12/31/10 

Post#158 » by Dat2U » Sun Jan 2, 2011 2:25 am

dandridge 10 wrote:
Induveca wrote:CCJ I'm right there with you.....

Another issue is Saunders is fighting for his job and he knows it....he'll go with the vets under the assumption it is the best approach for HIM to win now. But major issue is the vets don't care outside of Howard. If they do it's for selfish motivations as well.

Seraphin/Booker/Young/Wall/McGee is a smart lineup. All of those guys outside of McGee have shown they are all willing to compete and prove themselves regularly. Blatche, while talented is either too stupid or too lazy to accept he should be banging in the post.

Thorton/Howard/Armstrong/Hinrich have no place on the team at this point. The decision was made to roll with our youth, build their confidence and improve the culture. A bunch of selfish malcontent former 3rd and 4th option vets logging major minutes is a recipe for not only failure this year, but lomg term failure.


I am all for giving Seraphin and Booker more minutes, but the Seraphin/Booker/Young/Wall/McGee is not a smart line-up. This would likely be one of the worst possible offensive line-ups in the NBA, by far. Other than Young, there is no other player in that line-up that could consistently hit an open shot. All an opposing team would have to do is stick one man on Young and have the rest pack the lane to prevent Wall from penetrating....watching Seraphin, Booker, McGee and Wall clang open jumpers would simply be painful to watch. I'm all for rewarding hustle players with more playing time, but it is not smart to put them in a position that they cannot succeed. It will only stunt their growth, not foster it. You can say all you want about Flip as a coach, but there is not another coach in the NBA that would start 3 rookies or even play 3 rookies at one time unless it was a blow out of a game.


Agreed. Not to mention the whole idea of playing Booker at SF is simply nonsensical. What has anyone seen in Booker's game to believe he'd be effective playing the 3?

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