[Camelo Thread Part 6] - Update: NJ tries again Pg. 71

[RHODEY]

Jesus Christ. I'm writing this one more time, then going to sleep.

There's a chance -- however slim -- that Melo's just bluffing to force a trade. There's a chance that he would forego playing in NY in order to get his full guaranteed paycheck. There's also a chance that he ends up fetching a valuable package in the offseason via sign and trade. There's even a chance that Denver makes a run in the playoffs and it influences his decision. There's a chance Amar'e blows out his knees. There's a chance the Wall Street Journal reports that MAX salaries are going to be cut in half. You get the picture? Anything can happen.

Would you rather be known as the GM who let Carmelo go for peanuts or the guy who gave up before exhausting every possible ounce of leverage? Personally, I'd go down fighting. But that's just me, apparently.

That said, I hope he's a Knick. And I hope it happens right friggin now. Goodnight, RGM Knicks forum. Keep dreaming.

I would rather be known as the GM who got Peanuts over peanut shells.....

[snyknick86]

lala wears the pants in the anthony family , is whatever she says not the nuggets or melo lmao

[vinnie_vegas69]

Would you rather be known as the GM who let Carmelo go for peanuts or the guy who gave up before exhausting every possible ounce of leverage? Personally, I'd go down fighting. But that's just me, apparently.

It absolutely is just you.

Due to the events of last summer, with so many stars leaving their teams, including Lebron leaving his home-state Cavs, and he and Bosh taking paycuts to get to where they wanted to go, fans are more paranoid than ever of losing their guys for nothing.

Ujiri is in the somewhat fortunate position of not having to be blamed for not getting a huge package in return for Melo - Phoenix fans are now remorseful that they couldn't trade Amare last year, and ditto Raptors fans with Chris Bosh, because something > nothing.

If he brings in one solid young prospect and a pick or two, compared to what Phoenix, Toronto and Cleveland got for their stars last year, he'll have done relatively well. Denver currently have Ty Lawson and that's about it to build around for their future. They could lose Nene for nothing in the off-season as well, particularly if Carmelo leaves, and they're going to need a full-scale rebuild.

If they pass up young talent for a slim chance at persuading Carmelo to stay, despite him telling them repeatedly that he's not interested in signing an extension with them, it could set them back years in their rebuild.

Denver simply can't afford to have their heads in the sand about what's going on here - As George Santayana said, "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it", and you can be damned sure that Denver aren't looking to repeat what happened to Toronto, Phoenix and Cleveland last year.

[PrecociousNeoph]

from wiretap: melo reiterates to denver that he isn't signing the extension.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wireta ... _re_sign/#

if you read the article:

No. 4 -- 'Melo-drama in the Mile High
Carmelo Anthony's army of leakers and whisperers put out the word that the Nuggets' franchise player and three-time All Star wants out of Denver, looking for a combo of superstars like Miami put together to play alongside for the next few years. Of course, when asked, 'Melo says he's just playing and isn't thinking about the future, which is absurd on its face, as he's left a $65 million extension on the table for months (and just, again, told the Nuggets last week that he had no intention of re-signing in Denver, according to a source.)

poor nets fans

[seren]

Towelie, everything you said is completely true.

But none of it changes the fact that Denver isn't just going to give him away at the deadline. Unless a team steps up with an offer they can't refuse, the Nuggs have every incentive to wait it out and hope something changes.

Are Gallo & AR better than nothing? Of course. But are they more valuable than having a five month window where Carmelo might change his mind? Very debatable.

this actually is a fair point. denver still has many home games before february 24th. they also have to consider making a run to the playoffs. so there is every reason to wait it out until the deadline. moreover denver can still do a summer trade given melo is not really an expiring as he has a player option.

it also comes down to getting denver what they want, ie picks instead of players. having said that, there is really no concern about beating out other offers. melo is not signing extension anywhere else.

[AllanHoustonFan]

lala wears the pants in the anthony family , is whatever she says not the nuggets or melo lmao

Happy wife, happy life.

[moocow007]

Towelie, everything you said is completely true.

But none of it changes the fact that Denver isn't just going to give him away at the deadline. Unless a team steps up with an offer they can't refuse, the Nuggs have every incentive to wait it out and hope something changes.

Are Gallo & AR better than nothing? Of course. But are they more valuable than having a five month window where Carmelo might change his mind? Very debatable.

this actually is a fair point. denver still has many home games before february 24th. they also have to consider making a run to the playoffs. so there is every reason to wait it out until the deadline. moreover denver can still do a summer trade given melo is not really an expiring as he has a player option.

it also comes down to getting denver what they want, ie picks instead of players. having said that, there is really no concern about beating out other offers. melo is not signing extension anywhere else.

A summer sign-and-trade? I really don't see the gain there. The one "carrot" that the Nuggets have over Melo's head is the impending CBA possibly hitting max players hard in terms of new contracts and, as a result, scaring Melo into doing something other than what he apparently wants most (join the Knicks).

As soon as the season is over the current CBA ends and along with it any potential benefit of current CBA money (i.e. the 3 years $65 million extension goes poof and Melo is either forced to not opt out or to go into the great unknown). The Nuggets carrot goes out the window.

My guess is that they have already gone to Carmelo, asked him if he's willing to go to the Nets (and sign an extension with them) and he's said no. What they are doing now is hoping Melo blinks, backs down and agrees to sign that extension.

[Deeeez Knicks]

So....when do we try to trade Turiaf to clear salary? Deadline? Summer?

I think there'll be some maneuvering around the deadline. I hope we don't get held for ransom like the Jeffries trade.

Turiaf + AR for expiring seems like it can happen. I just wish we would play AR just to work up his value and see what he can do.

[moocow007]

So....when do we try to trade Turiaf to clear salary? Deadline? Summer?

When you need to.

I think there'll be some maneuvering around the deadline. I hope we don't get held for ransom like the Jeffries trade.

Turiaf makes $4 million next year. The Knicks can include $3 million. Shouldn't be a problem dealing him.

Turiaf + AR for expiring seems like it can happen. I just wish we would play AR just to work up his value and see what he can do.

To do what? MAYBE use the capspace for Melo IF he makes it to free agency months from now AND assuming that there isn't a lockout AND without having an idea what the new CBA might be or if there's a lockout (which would basically mean you gave AR away with Turiaf for absolutely nothing)? Stop jumping the gun.

[FieldsMedal]

I think there'll be some maneuvering around the deadline. I hope we don't get held for ransom like the Jeffries trade.

How did the Knicks get held up exactly?

Do yo believe Jordan Hill was enough to convince Houston to take on Jared Jefferies' contract?

[towelie]

So....when do we try to trade Turiaf to clear salary? Deadline? Summer?

I think there'll be some maneuvering around the deadline. I hope we don't get held for ransom like the Jeffries trade.

Turiaf + AR for expiring seems like it can happen. I just wish we would play AR just to work up his value and see what he can do.

If it really began to look like Melo is not getting traded by the deadline, we can always ship Turiaf to Orlando for expirings.

[seren]

Towelie, everything you said is completely true.

But none of it changes the fact that Denver isn't just going to give him away at the deadline. Unless a team steps up with an offer they can't refuse, the Nuggs have every incentive to wait it out and hope something changes.

Are Gallo & AR better than nothing? Of course. But are they more valuable than having a five month window where Carmelo might change his mind? Very debatable.

this actually is a fair point. denver still has many home games before february 24th. they also have to consider making a run to the playoffs. so there is every reason to wait it out until the deadline. moreover denver can still do a summer trade given melo is not really an expiring as he has a player option.

it also comes down to getting denver what they want, ie picks instead of players. having said that, there is really no concern about beating out other offers. melo is not signing extension anywhere else.

A summer sign-and-trade? I really don't see the gain there. The one "carrot" that the Nuggets have over Melo's head is the impending CBA possibly hitting max players hard in terms of new contracts and, as a result, scaring Melo into doing something other than what he apparently wants most (join the Knicks).

As soon as the season is over the current CBA ends and along with it any potential benefit of current CBA money (i.e. the 3 years $65 million extension goes poof and Melo is either forced to not opt out or to go into the great unknown). The Nuggets carrot goes out the window.

My guess is that they have already gone to Carmelo, asked him if he's willing to go to the Nets (and sign an extension with them) and he's said no. What they are doing now is hoping Melo blinks, backs down and agrees to sign that extension.

I may be totally wrong on this, so correct me if that is the case. But isn't it entirely possible that Melo can be extended and traded in the off-season before July 1st (when the current CBA expires)?

[Deeeez Knicks]

So....when do we try to trade Turiaf to clear salary? Deadline? Summer?

When you need to.

I think there'll be some maneuvering around the deadline. I hope we don't get held for ransom like the Jeffries trade.

Turiaf makes $4 million next year. The Knicks can include $3 million. Shouldn't be a problem dealing him.

Turiaf + AR for expiring seems like it can happen. I just wish we would play AR just to work up his value and see what he can do.

To do what? MAYBE use the capspace for Melo IF he makes it to free agency months from now AND assuming that there isn't a lockout AND without having an idea what the new CBA might be or if there's a lockout (which would basically mean you gave AR away with Turiaf for absolutely nothing)? Stop jumping the gun.

I'm not jumping the gun and saying do it now. Just asking the question of

AR + Turiaf at the deadline or in the summer.

I think its a very valid and important question. You bring up some good points which most are aware of, but there's also risk involved in waiting. We are limited in our trading to teams under the cap. How many teams are even under the cap? Will they help us? Will they take on that $7mill? Will CBA work against us with teams unwilling to even take on an expiring?

Last year we had the same situation. I was actually in favor of waiting till the summer to try to shed Jeffries since I wasnt confident in 2 maxs. I didn't like that trade, but def see why we did it and can't argue against our logic.

But if we're at the deadline, if we know Melo is not getting moved, we know Melo is def interested in us, we know he doesnt want to sign an extension in Denver....it could be very very tempting to shed Turiaf then rather then wait. I think its a move we have to make.

Worse case we will have an extra $7mill we can use to sign a C to replace Turiaf as there are a few viable options out there.

Ultimatley, Walsh has the best feel. So I'll trust his judgement.

[towelie]

this actually is a fair point. denver still has many home games before february 24th. they also have to consider making a run to the playoffs. so there is every reason to wait it out until the deadline. moreover denver can still do a summer trade given melo is not really an expiring as he has a player option.

it also comes down to getting denver what they want, ie picks instead of players. having said that, there is really no concern about beating out other offers. melo is not signing extension anywhere else.

A summer sign-and-trade? I really don't see the gain there. The one "carrot" that the Nuggets have over Melo's head is the impending CBA possibly hitting max players hard in terms of new contracts and, as a result, scaring Melo into doing something other than what he apparently wants most (join the Knicks).

As soon as the season is over the current CBA ends and along with it any potential benefit of current CBA money (i.e. the 3 years $65 million extension goes poof and Melo is either forced to not opt out or to go into the great unknown). The Nuggets carrot goes out the window.

My guess is that they have already gone to Carmelo, asked him if he's willing to go to the Nets (and sign an extension with them) and he's said no. What they are doing now is hoping Melo blinks, backs down and agrees to sign that extension.

I may be totally wrong on this, so correct me if that is the case. But isn't it entirely possible that Melo can be extended and traded in the off-season before July 1st (when the current CBA expires)?

Misread your post initially. I think he can be extended and traded after the Nuggets/Knicks' season, but obviously Melo would have to agree to the extension beforehand. It essentially gives more leverage to Melo cause there aren't even rental packages to deal with. Melo essentially has a no-trade clause by then, and Nets would be completely out of the picture.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I think there'll be some maneuvering around the deadline. I hope we don't get held for ransom like the Jeffries trade.

How did the Knicks get held up exactly?

Do yo believe Jordan Hill was enough to convince Houston to take on Jared Jefferies' contract?

Maybe not, but a pick swap (when we were a perenially losing team) and another pick along with Hill was too steep and risky of a price IMO.

I hate to imagine it, but if things went wrong we could have been a lottery team with no lotto picks for 3 years straight ('10, '11, '12).

It worked out ok so can't hate on the deal, but even Walsh himself questioned it.

[FieldsMedal]

I may be totally wrong on this, so correct me if that is the case. But isn't it entirely possible that Melo can be extended and traded in the off-season before July 1st (when the current CBA expires)?

Nope.

Players who's contract CAN end in some fashion or another (expiring, ETO, PO) cannot be traded after the deadline. Only players whose contracts are locked in for the next season can be traded.

'Melo can decline his ETO OR accept his extension and then be eligible to be traded, but unlike sign & trade, there is no CBA mechanism that would require Denver to trade him after he did that and he'd have no recourse if they didn't.

If a trade was pre-arranged, he'd have to trust Denver to go through with it and trust the NBA would approve the trade.

[seren]

Misread your post initially. I think he can be extended and traded after the Nuggets/Knicks' season, but obviously Melo would have to agree to the extension beforehand. It essentially gives more leverage to Melo cause there aren't even rental packages to deal with. Melo essentially has a no-trade clause by then, and Nets would be completely out of the picture.

I am just throwing out things, but the following would work:

Suppose Denver comes to NY and says in the draft that they are ready to make the deal. Obviously Curry is out of the picture. It would either include Felton, or something like this:

Turiaf (assuming he picks his PO), Gallo, Mozgov, AR, Rautins, 2011 first pick (can't count as salary as contracts won't be signed at that moment) for Melo.

Can we say no? Especially knowing that Turiaf, the pick, Mozgov or AR needs to go AND Chandler either has to accept the QO or let go AND we lose the possible mid-level? And if we say no, would Melo be interested to risk the FA market at that point knowing Denver was willing to deal with us and we chose not to?

[FieldsMedal]

Maybe not, but a pick swap (when we were a perenially losing team) and another pick along with Hill was too steep and risky of a price IMO.

I'd understand if people thought the premise of the deal was too risky. I take exception to people who think Houston should have taken Jefferies for less, which is a whole other equation.

It worked out ok so can't hate on the deal, but even Walsh himself questioned it.

Walsh never questioned the specific deal, he generally acknowledged reluctance and the chancy nature of trading a young player/first round pick, which is standard GM speak.

I remember when he made the comments and people spun it so he was outright second-guessing that specific deal. I didn't read it that way at all.

Way I read it he generally doesn't like trading young players and picks. And that's smart, because of the player or pick turn out to be something, then he's on the record acknowledging the risk.

Look up the comments again. I may be wrong/misremembering here, but notice how GENERAL his comments are.

[seren]

Maybe not, but a pick swap (when we were a perenially losing team) and another pick along with Hill was too steep and risky of a price IMO.

I'd understand if people thought the premise of the deal was too risky. I take exception to people who think Houston should have taken Jefferies for less, which is a whole other equation.

It worked out ok so can't hate on the deal, but even Walsh himself questioned it.

Walsh never questioned the specific deal, he generally acknowledged reluctance and the chancy nature of trading a young player/first round pick, which is standard GM speak.

I remember when he made the comments and people spun it so he was outright second-guessing that specific deal. I didn't read it that way at all.

Way I read it he generally doesn't like trading young players and picks. And that's smart, because of the player or pick turn out to be something, then he's on the record acknowledging the risk.

Look up the comments again. I may be wrong/misremembering here, but notice how GENERAL his comments are.

I think the biggest problem with the deal is the 12 pick. Had we added a pick swap option instead of the pick itself (which may not be that attractive obviously), we would be free to add 2011 pick (ours or Houston's) and 2013 pick in potential Melo deals.

[FieldsMedal]

If it really began to look like Melo is not getting traded by the deadline, we can always ship Turiaf to Orlando for expirings.

True, but a little precarious, as Orlando only has one (and exactly one) combo of players that would work.

Clark/Williams/Allen.

Only expirings they have and you need all three to get the salary to match.