[NY Knicks Cap Situation Thread] - 2010-2011 Edition

[aggo]

#1) if we trade for Melo and Chandler is not included in any such deal, can we still re-sign chandler in the offseason?

Answer: Yes. We can go over the cap to resign Chandler. We have the ability to match any offer he receives because he is a RFA

#2) can we sign melo outright in the summer at max?

answer: Yes and no. No because we have no idea how the CBA will turn out. We might not even have basketball next season. Yes because we have the ability to renounce guys who will have cap holds

go on, add!!

[magnumt]

#3) If we go to Free Agency, and have not Traded for Melo can we get both he and Chandler?

Answer: Not likely. We'd have to do some serious gutting (ala Miami) to sign Wilson (who would have to take a Pay-Cut of sign his QO), and Melo (who will have to sign for about $3 Million or so less than the Max). Both of which would likely never happen. Therefore, NY's best option at getting both is to Trade for Melo now, and match Wilson's offers in the Off-Season.

#4) Will we lose Fields because he's a 2nd Rounder on a 2 Year Deal?

Answer: No! The last CBA added in the Gilbert Arenas/Carlos Boozer rule to prevent that. We can match his 1st Year Salary up to the MLE. The most a Team can offer him on his 1st Year deal is the MLE. Meaning we can match all Offers. A Team can however get slick and try and poison-pill his Contract with various "loading" Options.

--Mags

[aggo]

#5) i dont understand why all these answers are so vague!!

answer: because we don't know what will happen in the CBA. And much like last year going into FA-- where it was rumored that the salary cap would decrease by as much as 3-4 million (iirc it ended up increasing by like 2 million), no one is sure where the salary cap will be for next year combined with the uncertainty of the CBA.

#6) ok so, why would we care about the salary cap from last year?

answer: today we dont. But last year if the salary cap decreased we would not have been able to sign 2 max cats outright back then.

[kane2021]

If we trade for Carmelo this season, we can also use our cap exceptions such as the MLE after signing OUR free agents in the off season.

[GreekKnick]

Quality thread.

[knicks742]

Can someone post how we can keep Felton even though we won't have his bird rights. I know it relates to having early bird rights but others are much more intelligent when it comes to the salary cap. Thanks.

[FieldsMedal]

the third year is critical

because if a guy is on a team for 3 years we automatically get bird rights

so if we have bird rights, our salary could be over the cap and we'd be able to sign him for whatever contract we wanted.

Not really.

2 years gives the Knicks his EARLY BIRD rights.

Players who qualify for this exception are called "Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. A player qualifies for this exception essentially by playing two seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent. A team may use this exception to re-sign its own free agent for up to 175% of his salary the previous season or the average player salary, whichever is greater.

Knicks will be able to offer Felton a contract starting at $13.3m a year ($7.6m x 175%) with 10.5% raises.

The effective difference between Early and Full Bird rights is Early is limited to a 5 year contract, and Full 6 years, and the 175% limit, where the Full Bird's only limit is the player's maximum salary.

The only "danger" to the Knicks is if another team decides to offer Felton more than $13.3m and he takes it.

I'm not that concerned.

[spectre_]

the third year is critical

because if a guy is on a team for 3 years we automatically get bird rights

so if we have bird rights, our salary could be over the cap and we'd be able to sign him for whatever contract we wanted.

Not really.

2 years gives the Knicks his EARLY BIRD rights.

Players who qualify for this exception are called "Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. A player qualifies for this exception essentially by playing two seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent. A team may use this exception to re-sign its own free agent for up to 175% of his salary the previous season or the average player salary, whichever is greater.

Knicks will be able to offer Felton a contract starting at $13.3m a year ($7.6m x 175%) with 10.5% raises.

The effective difference between Early and Full Bird rights is Early is limited to a 5 year contract, and Full 6 years, and the 175% limit, where the Full Bird's only limit is the player's maximum salary.

The only "danger" to the Knicks is if another team decides to offer Felton more than $13.3m and he takes it.

I'm not that concerned.

That came from Wiki, right? That seems to be conflicting with Coon's FAQ:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q31

Here's an example of how to use this chart: Let's say a player who made $5 million during the previous season becomes an Early-Bird free agent, and is not coming off the second season of his rookie scale contract. According to this chart, the player's free agent amount is 130% of his previous salary. So $6.5 million is included in his team's team salary while he is a free agent.

Unless I'm missing something you have to use a 1.3 multiplier. If it's 8 million his last year then the max would be 10.3. If it's 7.6 million then it'd be 9.88 million.

Either way with the new CBA coming up (and assuming these rules don't change) I think that would be enough.

[towelie]

the third year is critical

because if a guy is on a team for 3 years we automatically get bird rights

so if we have bird rights, our salary could be over the cap and we'd be able to sign him for whatever contract we wanted.

Not really.

2 years gives the Knicks his EARLY BIRD rights.

Players who qualify for this exception are called "Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. A player qualifies for this exception essentially by playing two seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent. A team may use this exception to re-sign its own free agent for up to 175% of his salary the previous season or the average player salary, whichever is greater.

Knicks will be able to offer Felton a contract starting at $13.3m a year ($7.6m x 175%) with 10.5% raises.

The effective difference between Early and Full Bird rights is Early is limited to a 5 year contract, and Full 6 years, and the 175% limit, where the Full Bird's only limit is the player's maximum salary.

The only "danger" to the Knicks is if another team decides to offer Felton more than $13.3m and he takes it.

I'm not that concerned.

That came from Wiki, right? That seems to be conflicting with Coon's FAQ:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q31

Here's an example of how to use this chart: Let's say a player who made $5 million during the previous season becomes an Early-Bird free agent, and is not coming off the second season of his rookie scale contract. According to this chart, the player's free agent amount is 130% of his previous salary. So $6.5 million is included in his team's team salary while he is a free agent.

Unless I'm missing something you have to use a 1.3 multiplier. If it's 8 million his last year then the max would be 10.3. If it's 7.6 million then it'd be 9.88 million.

Either way with the new CBA coming up (and assuming these rules don't change) I think that would be enough.

You're confusing cap holds with how much we can sign Felton for. Felton will have a CAP HOLD (ie. take up cap space even when unsigned) for around $10.3M. This was similar to David Lee's cap hold last season.

However, Felton can be SIGNED for up to $13.3M by us, using his early bird rights.

[Tommy Udo 6]

What the Knicks could have done (hindsight): They could have done a sign & trade with Charlotte for Felton. Sign & trade deals must be 3 years long (although all 3 do not need to be guaranteed). The trade could have been just for a second round draft pick swap since the Knicks had cap space at the time to do it. (When Camby went to Clippers from Denver, he was traded for the option to swap second rounders. Denver didnt even get a second rounder for him, just an option.)

By doing a sign & trade, Knicks would have received full Bird Rights since they are transferred if there is a trade.

So why wasnt there a sign & trade? Did Donnie not want it or did Ray not want it?

[knicks742]

What the Knicks could have done (hindsight): They could have done a sign & trade with Charlotte for Felton. Sign & trade deals must be 3 years long (although all 3 do not need to be guaranteed). The trade could have been just for a second round draft pick swap since the Knicks had cap space at the time to do it. (When Camby went to Clippers from Denver, he was traded for the option to swap second rounders. Denver didnt even get a second rounder for him, just an option.)

By doing a sign & trade, Knicks would have received full Bird Rights since they are transferred if there is a trade.

So why wasnt there a sign & trade? Did Donnie not want it or did Ray not want it?

We wanted 2012 flexibility to go after Howard, Williams or Paul, in case the current cast didnt work out and we struck out in getting the 2nd superstar in 2011.

Donnie's plan has always been 2 superstars and a deep team.

[Deeeez Knicks]

The 2 year deal for Felton was genius. Early Bird Rights.

We can offer him like a 5 year $80mill deal. Nobody's going to top that.

[towelie]

What the Knicks could have done (hindsight): They could have done a sign & trade with Charlotte for Felton. Sign & trade deals must be 3 years long (although all 3 do not need to be guaranteed). The trade could have been just for a second round draft pick swap since the Knicks had cap space at the time to do it. (When Camby went to Clippers from Denver, he was traded for the option to swap second rounders. Denver didnt even get a second rounder for him, just an option.)

By doing a sign & trade, Knicks would have received full Bird Rights since they are transferred if there is a trade.

So why wasnt there a sign & trade? Did Donnie not want it or did Ray not want it?

Doubt it's really going to matter. Even with Felton's good play, do you really see him getting more than $13.3M starting salary on his next contract? Teams would have to offer significantly more than that too, since we can offer max raises.

[FieldsMedal]

You're confusing cap holds with how much we can sign Felton for. Felton will have a CAP HOLD (ie. take up cap space even when unsigned) for around $10.3M. This was similar to David Lee's cap hold last season.

However, Felton can be SIGNED for up to $13.3M by us, using his early bird rights.

Ding!

Doubt it's really going to matter. Even with Felton's good play, do you really see him getting more than $13.3M starting salary on his next contract? Teams would have to offer significantly more than that too, since we can offer max raises.

Ding! Ding!

[spectre_]

You're confusing cap holds with how much we can sign Felton for. Felton will have a CAP HOLD (ie. take up cap space even when unsigned) for around $10.3M. This was similar to David Lee's cap hold last season.

However, Felton can be SIGNED for up to $13.3M by us, using his early bird rights.

Excellent...I see my error now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[KnicksManiac]

(Somewhat) easy way to sign Melo and Chandler? The following would need to happen:

1. Turiaf - Declines player option to go for a multi-year deal somewhere else.
2. Walker - Knicks decline team option (According to hoopshype)
3. Mozgov - Knicks dump him + give $3 million cash to a team with cap space.

Left with:

Amare - $18,217,705
Felton - $7,500,000
Cap Hold for WC - $6,300,000
Gallo - $4,190,182
Randolph - $2,911,231
Douglas - $1,145,640
Fields - $788,872
Rautins - $788,872

We would then be at $41,842,502.

4. Sign Melo to max deal starting at $18,000,000
5. Sign Wilson to a large multi-year contract.

Pretty easy, no?

[towelie]

(Somewhat) easy way to sign Melo and Chandler? The following would need to happen:

1. Turiaf - Declines player option to go for a multi-year deal somewhere else.
2. Walker - Knicks decline team option (According to hoopshype)
3. Mozgov - Knicks dump him + give $3 million cash to a team with cap space.

Left with:

Amare - $18,217,705
Felton - $7,500,000
Cap Hold for WC - $6,300,000
Gallo - $4,190,182
Randolph - $2,911,231
Douglas - $1,145,640
Fields - $788,872
Rautins - $788,872

We would then be at $41,842,502.

4. Sign Melo to max deal starting at $18,000,000
5. Sign Wilson to a large multi-year contract.

Pretty easy, no?

Missing 3 roster charges, which is about $1.5M more in cap space (minimum roster has to be 12 players, but Melo would take up the 12th spot, so only need to add 3 roster charges to 11). We can cover that by trading AR too though, or ask Melo to take a paycut to $16.5M, which is what Amare's starting salary was. It's definitely do-able if we really want to bring back Chandler.

[KnicksManiac]

(Somewhat) easy way to sign Melo and Chandler? The following would need to happen:

1. Turiaf - Declines player option to go for a multi-year deal somewhere else.
2. Walker - Knicks decline team option (According to hoopshype)
3. Mozgov - Knicks dump him + give $3 million cash to a team with cap space.

Left with:

Amare - $18,217,705
Felton - $7,500,000
Cap Hold for WC - $6,300,000
Gallo - $4,190,182
Randolph - $2,911,231
Douglas - $1,145,640
Fields - $788,872
Rautins - $788,872

We would then be at $41,842,502.

4. Sign Melo to max deal starting at $18,000,000
5. Sign Wilson to a large multi-year contract.

Pretty easy, no?

Missing 3 roster charges, which is about $1.5M more in cap space (minimum roster has to be 12 players, but Melo would take up the 12th spot, so only need to add 3 roster charges to 11). We can cover that by trading AR too though, or ask Melo to take a paycut to $16.5M, which is what Amare's starting salary was. It's definitely do-able if we really want to bring back Chandler.

Good call, I knew I was forgetting something. Actually wouldn't our first round pick (~$1,300,000) and our two 2nd round picks (~$500,000 each) avoid the roster charges?

[Johnny Hoops]

I know there's been tons of discussion on cap ramfications around trading for Melo or waiting until the summer.

Question:

Assuming Melo goes elsewhere (with an extention) and is off the board for the Knicks is it in the Knicks best interest to go over the CAP at the trade deadline or are we better off keeping our CAP space?

I guess I'm asking if we can't get Melo --- is it in our best interest to find and trade for a secondary level player or two that push us over the CAP this year and allow us to both re-up a Chandler and potentially use things like the MLE next summer.

I'm assuming if we don't go over the CAP this year that resigning Wilson would take up a large chunk of our CAP room --- limiting other options for adding extra pieces.

[FieldsMedal]

(Somewhat) easy way to sign Melo and Chandler? The following would need to happen:

1. Turiaf - Declines player option to go for a multi-year deal somewhere else.
2. Walker - Knicks decline team option (According to hoopshype)
3. Mozgov - Knicks dump him + give $3 million cash to a team with cap space.

Left with:

Amare - $18,217,705
Felton - $7,500,000
Cap Hold for WC - $6,300,000
Gallo - $4,190,182
Randolph - $2,911,231
Douglas - $1,145,640
Fields - $788,872
Rautins - $788,872

We would then be at $41,842,502.

4. Sign Melo to max deal starting at $18,000,000
5. Sign Wilson to a large multi-year contract.

Pretty easy, no?

Couple of things:

1.) I'd suggest Shampsorts over Hoopshype. I believe the former is more accurate.

According to them, Walker's 2011-2012 salary become locked in when the Knicks declined to waive him in July of last year.

2.) I understand the desire to add Chandler and get 'Melo (and keep Gallo) but letting Turiaf, Randolph AND Mozgov go?

Knicks would be the smallest team in the NBA, bar none. If Stoudemire missed a game(s) Knicks would be rockin' Chandler at center and Gallo at PF.