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Official Trade Thread XV: 12/22/10 - 5/3/11

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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#301 » by Ruzious » Fri Jan 7, 2011 3:47 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:Love may get rebounds but he is a horrible defensive player. Look how many blocks he gets. Also he has no reliable post game to speak of, basically a jump shooter. There is a reason why Timberwolves suck so bad. Love is a stat stuffer but number reveals he is undersized and horrible defender. He also has no reliable post game. He is role playing bench player that is looking to be treated like a superstar because he good at collecting misses.

That will not let you win against the elite teams and that's why timberwolves would trade him in a heart beat if they can get a bigger p/f that can play in the post offensively and block shots.

Normally I would agree that a poor defensive big man is a recipe for a stat stuffing loser, but not with Love - because he is so good... at so many things - not just that he's the best offensive and defensive rebounder in the game. I'm confident that eventually he'll be a winner in the NBA. But look at the team he's playing with. The second best player on the team is Beasley - who was viewed as a complete flop in Miami just last season. The PG is a re-tread at best - Ridnour - who can't cover anyone. Wes Johnson is going to be a very good player, but he's a rookie. They're going with a center who's been nothing but a disappointment in the NBA. Putting their losing record on Love at this point defies logic.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#302 » by verbal8 » Fri Jan 7, 2011 3:50 pm

Ruzious wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:Love may get rebounds but he is a horrible defensive player. Look how many blocks he gets. Also he has no reliable post game to speak of, basically a jump shooter. There is a reason why Timberwolves suck so bad. Love is a stat stuffer but number reveals he is undersized and horrible defender. He also has no reliable post game. He is role playing bench player that is looking to be treated like a superstar because he good at collecting misses.

That will not let you win against the elite teams and that's why timberwolves would trade him in a heart beat if they can get a bigger p/f that can play in the post offensively and block shots.

Normally I would agree that a poor defensive big man is a recipe for a stat stuffing loser, but not with Love - because he is so good... at so many things - not just that he's the best offensive and defensive rebounder in the game. I'm confident that eventually he'll be a winner in the NBA. But look at the team he's playing with. The second best player on the team is Beasley - who was viewed as a complete flop in Miami just last season. The PG is a re-tread at best - Ridnour - who can't cover anyone. Wes Johnson is going to be a very good player, but he's a rookie. They're going with a center who's been nothing but a disappointment in the NBA. Putting their losing record on Love at this point defies logic.


Looking at 82 games, Love is basically the only guy where the Twolves have an advantage at PER. He does have deficienies defensively(no blocks and opponents shoot a decent percentage). However he wins the rebound battle 2/1 and he draws a lot of fouls on opponents(especially at Center).
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#303 » by nate33 » Fri Jan 7, 2011 3:59 pm

One other thing about Love. His rebounding is very good, but not quite as good as the numbers make it seem. Going by rebounds per minute, he dominates. But that's because Minnesota plays at a fast pace and misses a lot. Here are the numbers on a per 36 basis:

Code: Select all

Player           REB
evans,reggie    16.1
love,kevin      15.3
camby,marcus    14.5
humphries,kris  13.3
howard,dwight   13.2
biedrins,andris 12.5
randolph,zach   12.5
griffin,blake   12.3
chandler,tyson  11.7
noah,joakim     11.5
duncan,tim      11.4
bogut,andrew    11.3
boozer,carlos   11.3
okafor,emeka    11.2
haslem,udonis   11.0
mcgee,javale    10.9
varejao,anderso 10.9
garnett,kevin   10.8
cousins,demarcu 10.8
gasol,pau       10.1
horford,al      10.1
hibbert,roy     10.1

15.3 rebounds per 36 is a mind boggling number. It's almost half again as many boards as Javale McGee. But if you look at rebound rate, (the percentage of rebounds grabbed of the rebounds available), Love doesn't look quite so impressive:

Code: Select all

Player           RbR
evans,reggie    26.1
camby,marcus    23.9
love,kevin      22.8
humphries,kris  21.8
howard,dwight   20.9
randolph,zach   20.9
biedrins,andris 20.3
griffin,blake   19.1
chandler,tyson  18.8
garnett,kevin   18.7
mcgee,javale    18.6
varejao,anderso 18.6
duncan,tim      18.1
okafor,emeka    18.1
bogut,andrew    18.0
noah,joakim     17.6
boozer,carlos   17.3
haslem,udonis   17.1
horford,al      16.8
cousins,demarcu 16.7
hibbert,roy     15.5
gasol,pau       15.3

22% is nice, but it's no longer the stuff of legend. He grabs just 20% more rebounds than McGee, even though McGee is running around like an idiot trying to block every shot.

Put it this way: if McGee played on Minnesota for the same number of minutes as Love, he'd average 12.7 boards per game and rank third in the league in total boards per game behind Love and Howard.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#304 » by LyricalRico » Fri Jan 7, 2011 4:00 pm

verbal8 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
LyricalRico wrote:Still, one potential roadblock to Blatche-for-Verajao would be if the Cavs use their trade exception to facilitate a Melo deal by taking on Al Harrington. Even if CLE plans to play Harrington at SF, that would likely be so they can continue to develop Hickson at PF. So where would Blatche fit in? They'd have to see Blatche as a center to make it work in that scenario. Or otherwise admit they were wrong to value Hickson so highly.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Melo agrees to resign in Cleveland.

Cleveland might be able to find a better deal for Varejao than Blatche, but a Melo package isn't one of them.

Cleveland would not be getting Melo. NJ would be. I think CLE is actually taking on Troy Murphy(even worse fit with Blatche) in that deal. The deal fell apart when both DEN and CLE wanted the GS pick that NJ owns.

The part of that rumored deal that doesn't make sense to me is that CLE ends up paying 18 million for 2 picks and a 1/2 season of Troy Murphy. It seems that Memphis or the Twolves would be better 3rd parties.


Yeah, CLE wouldn't get Melo. They would just be facilitating him getting NJ by taking back a contract. The article I read said it was Harrington going to CLE, but I guess it could also be Murphy. I would think that DEN would want Murphy's expiring and to dump Harrington's longterm contract, so I'm going to go with the assumption that it's Harrington.

If CLE acquired Harrington+picks and then made the Blatche-for-Verajao deal (would also probably have to include Armstrong for cap purposes) that's picking up steam here, how about this 3-way to even out their roster:

Cavs trade: Jamison
Cavs receive: Biedrins and B.Wright

Warriors trade: Biedrins and B.Wright
Warriors receive: Diaw and Carroll

Bobcats trade: Diaw and Carroll
Bobcats receive: Jamison

TRADE ID 5801894

GS makes a pure salary dump, while Charlotte also trims a bit of salary while getting some offensive punch. Cleveland ends up with this:

Biedrins/Powe/Armstrong
Blatche/Hickson
Harrington/Moon
Parker/Gibson
Williams/Sessions

That's actually not bad. Good size and decent rebounding. Lacks a #1 scorer but they have 3 guys in Blatche, Harrington, and Williams who can each go off every now and then. If Byron Scott can get them to be slightly above average defensive, they could be in that 8th spot IMO. And they've got lots of picks coming down the pike.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#305 » by nate33 » Fri Jan 7, 2011 4:10 pm

That's a mediocre lineup that will doom Cleveland to 35-win purgatory, but I agree that it appears to be the strategy Gilbert wants to pursue. Overall, those are some pretty good trades.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#306 » by Ruzious » Fri Jan 7, 2011 4:16 pm

There's just no good way to build Cleveland back up anytime soon. They have a roster that makes even the Wiz look good.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#307 » by verbal8 » Fri Jan 7, 2011 4:23 pm

LyricalRico wrote:Yeah, CLE wouldn't get Melo. They would just be facilitating him getting NJ by taking back a contract. The article I read said it was Harrington going to CLE, but I guess it could also be Murphy. I would think that DEN would want Murphy's expiring and to dump Harrington's longterm contract, so I'm going to go with the assumption that it's Harrington.



The ESPN article has Murphy shipped out for the TPE and Harrington going to NJ with Carmelo. One question about the TPE, does the expiration reset? That might be a good asset to have with Carmelo in the fold.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#308 » by pcbothwel » Fri Jan 7, 2011 6:48 pm

I may be way off base but we are all growing a little tired of AB. Some of us feel he is out of shape, making poor offensive decisions, and shooting poorly...but he has been putting in some work on D and should be better as time goes on (my thoughts). Others believe the first 3 things and he has no hope. Either way, He does have value to a contender and I dont see how we cannot put something together with him and expirings (Al and Yi) to get younger/picks. I think Blatche has value but he needs a strong vet presence to keep him in line and I think him and McGee have skill sets that clash (most obvious is they are both too soft). We dont feel as though we are going to be players in a mediocre FA market this summer....

The first things that come to mind are Blatche to Indiana for George and Dahntay Jones. A ford for hinrich swap can be added to but they prefer Ford's expiring it seems.
Another possibility could be a middle man team between Nash going to Atlanta. Id love to get our hands on Josh Smith and they dont want to pay him, Johnson, and Horfords near max extension.

Our only other option would be to let the expirings walk and hope Blatche improves going forward. Im not opposed to this, but I can't see a Blatche/McGee front line providing the sort of man defense and toughness we need to compete in the playoffs.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#309 » by Benjammin » Fri Jan 7, 2011 6:57 pm

^^^
The Pacers are high on George so they're not going to give him up for Blatche.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#310 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Jan 7, 2011 8:04 pm

LyricalRico wrote:^ I like the overall idea, but I think you start Verajao for his defense. Actually, at that point I might even look to move McGee (or included him in the deal for Love and keep Seraphin).

The very reason I don't like the idea is Varejao would become the C and then McGee would be odd man out. Love and Varejao could be similar to Randolph and Marc Gasol. Defense would be problematic.

McGee is not quite 23 and already is a promising, starting C. Why trade him?
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#311 » by WizarDynasty » Fri Jan 7, 2011 8:56 pm

if we arent' getting a two way starting p/f..meaning he is above average on both offense and defense, then we arent' trading blatche.


McGee is never going to be a starting center because he lacks toughness=== he get can get strong all he wants but he will never be "tough" which means he is a 6th man like bird man. Now if i can trade our 'bird man" for a starting center that is above average both offensively and defensively then i will do it for sure. javale will never be a good powerforward--he is a tweener center that comes off the bench and gives you energy and shot blocking and few lucky baskets and put backs but there is nothing reliable about javale's man to man defense and there is nothing reliable about javales one on one offense when we need to score.

Since blatche is only 17 months older than javale-- I say we contact Clippers and see if we can pull one of their starting centers in D.jordan or C. kaman--- or search around the league for centers that are getting pushed to the bench but are still good on both sides of ball with their man to man defense and one on one offense.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#312 » by LyricalRico » Fri Jan 7, 2011 9:21 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
LyricalRico wrote:^ I like the overall idea, but I think you start Verajao for his defense. Actually, at that point I might even look to move McGee (or included him in the deal for Love and keep Seraphin).

The very reason I don't like the idea is Varejao would become the C and then McGee would be odd man out. Love and Varejao could be similar to Randolph and Marc Gasol. Defense would be problematic.

McGee is not quite 23 and already is a promising, starting C. Why trade him?


I'm just over trying to patch up the current roster. This roster needs more than patching. It's starting completely from scratch, which is fine. That's what many of us were expecting, and that's what Ted said was going to happen. The point I'm making is that you really can't reconcile "we need to completely start over" with "we have to keep everybody because they are all so promising". Everybody is fair game on an 8-25 team IMO.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#313 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Jan 7, 2011 9:36 pm

I feel you on that, LR.

I think this roster is far from the worst. I forget the opposing player, but someone said the Wizards have 50-win talent this time next season.

I say Flip is coaching them down so far and that is unlikely to change. it might not be practical to fire him, but before they trade a young player Ted needs to can Flip. His lineups are hurting the team.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#314 » by pancakes3 » Fri Jan 7, 2011 9:48 pm

everyone may be fair game (i disagree but that aside) but you can't just throw all the rules out the window just because you're desperate. we still have to get reasonable returns of value. verajao is staring 29 dead in the face and a career 7/7 guy who's never been the full time starter on a team for an entire season. if we swap JV for sideshow bob, we'd be essentially trading McGee for a shorter, older, less athletic, albeit fundamentally sounder version of McGee.

i still say that in Wall, Young, Blatche, and McGee we have a core of youngsters that are above average at their positions. yes even blatche. yes, even now in his worst stretch of basketball in recent memory.

if we honestly do adhere to "in ted we trust" we're gunning for the lottery again and hopefully snag a good SF in a sf-heavy draft class. then we'd be sound in all 5 positions, have a SUPERSTAR in wall, and money to resign our core with once Shard expires. i'm not crazy about the draft class and if we can pull some strings and lock up a guy like Luc Mbah a Moute or Chase Budinger - good, solid guys, instead of the perry jones or harrison barnes... we should do THAT but the overall philosophy of keeping wall/young/ab/mcgee is the same.

i mean yeah sure if there's a stud C out there who can give us 20/10... trade mcgee for him. absolutely. if NJ would want mcgee for lopez, or even memphis would swapt mcgee for gasol... but they won't. outside of those "top" centers, the 2nd tier is... Mcgee. we've got him. he's not top 5 but certainly top 10. why not be content with top 10?

our record? heck. i'm the guy who thought we were 50-win bound this season and i'm not even THAT bummed out that we're losing. the reasons why we're losing is obvious. blatche, though playing, is certainly not fully recovered from being injured (mentally. his foot is FIiiiiiine i bet). our coach is frustrated and probably has checked out, knowing his job (a job he's probably not too crazy about anymore) is in serious jeopardy.our young guys are too young/immature and just not ready - even the charming one who said everything right in the pre-draft interviews.

shrug.

so blatche is playing poorly. if we can upgrade him with love? awesome. if we can't? he's still a better PF than charlie V.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#315 » by gesa2 » Fri Jan 7, 2011 10:16 pm

How about some sort of Blatche for Tyrus Thomas deal? They only play Thomas 20 minutes a game in Charlotte, they must not like him that much.

Blatche, Yi, Al Thornton to Charlotte
TT and Diop to Washington

Diop is a bad contract, but only through next year. We're saving Charlotte money and giving them Blatche's offensive potential in return for Thomas' athleticism and defense.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#316 » by Hoopalotta » Fri Jan 7, 2011 10:40 pm

closg00 wrote:I'd have no problem trading Seraphin, simply because I don't think he'll be a contributor during his rookie contract...mainly because of lack of playing-time. We could swap him out for somebody more game-ready like Sullinger and be ahead of the game. Seraphin trade-value I suspect would be very low. (High 2nd rounder....maybe)


I can definitely see Seraphin being traded at some point, but you're misrepresenting the fundamentals to create an overly pessimistic picture. Sure, if we aggressively tried to trade him at this exact moment his value might be low as teams would assume the only reason for that position is that he's an absolute disaster of a person, but there's no reason to be pessimistic as to his trade value in general.

So why wouldn't Seraphin get playing time over the course of a four year rookie contract? To me, he's an exceptionally instinctive dirty work player who's shown huge improvements already; from the guy who came in for the Boston and Toronto games early in the season with a comic propensity for mistakes to where he's at now illustrates a very impressive learning curve for a guy who's been playing for six years or whatever. He's still mistake prone, but he naturally comprehends the blue collar aspects of the game and enjoys doing them, so I wouldn't be surprised if he worked his way at least partially into the rotation in a month or two and then had the backup-center slot locked up by next year. It's probably a fluke and almost surely won't last, but he was just the first big off the bench in Philly.

However, there is the other side of it and this is the actual reason why he could eventually be traded: he doesn't project as a starter because of limitations with his measurables/ceiling as an undersized center. He's got a great trunk, nice mobility and long arms, but he probably caps out as a 20-24 minute guy on a good team. So basically, Seraphin isn't anything like a high ceiling/low floor long-term project – he's not far from being a rotation quality player and will almost inevitably earn playing time by at least next year (unless we draft Kanter or something similar), but he might not go far beyond that unless he miraculously acquires forward skills.

As a general rule, teams at the start of a rebuild don't/shouldn't stick with rotation players they drafted for the long haul as they have better value as trade chips (i.e. trade decent prospects before they plateau). The Blazers are a cautionary tale there; aside from the injury bug, Pritchard generally drafted well but then never cashed in his chips as he envisioned all his mid/late picks being long term backups on a championship team. There's just precious little precedent for that ever working when compared with successful consolidation trades pushing teams over the top.

On the other hand, Seraphin's a center, so that's different and pushes it into something around the 50-50 range in the keep-deal debate because even rotation centers are a damn tough get on the open market (and McGee isn't a 36 minute center anyway). But for that very reason, I fully expect that Kevin's trade value will increase quite a bit with the minutes he's going to earn: a cheap and productive rotation center is the exact antidote for a lot of teams problems, both financial and basketball oriented.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#317 » by Hoopalotta » Fri Jan 7, 2011 10:41 pm

gesa2 wrote:How about some sort of Blatche for Tyrus Thomas deal? They only play Thomas 20 minutes a game in Charlotte, they must not like him that much.

Blatche, Yi, Al Thornton to Charlotte
TT and Diop to Washington

Diop is a bad contract, but only through next year. We're saving Charlotte money and giving them Blatche's offensive potential in return for Thomas' athleticism and defense.


Unfortunately, Diop's contract goes through 2013, though it's not a bad idea otherwise.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#318 » by Hoopalotta » Fri Jan 7, 2011 10:49 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
LyricalRico wrote:^ I like the overall idea, but I think you start Verajao for his defense. Actually, at that point I might even look to move McGee (or included him in the deal for Love and keep Seraphin).

The very reason I don't like the idea is Varejao would become the C and then McGee would be odd man out. Love and Varejao could be similar to Randolph and Marc Gasol. Defense would be problematic.

McGee is not quite 23 and already is a promising, starting C. Why trade him?


I can easily get on board with these concerns.

I like Varejao in general terms, but I don't see the point of bringing in anyone that age at this moment as we either continue to stink with an older roster or we're winning with a guy who's poised to fade when Wall's rookie deal comes up while compromising our draft positioning. It's just too early to bring in a guy like him as there's not much in the way of benefit.

We're already playing semi-decent defense and have three 'culture guy' vets.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#319 » by gesa2 » Fri Jan 7, 2011 10:51 pm

Hoopalotta wrote:
gesa2 wrote:How about some sort of Blatche for Tyrus Thomas deal? They only play Thomas 20 minutes a game in Charlotte, they must not like him that much.

Blatche, Yi, Al Thornton to Charlotte
TT and Diop to Washington

Diop is a bad contract, but only through next year. We're saving Charlotte money and giving them Blatche's offensive potential in return for Thomas' athleticism and defense.


Unfortunately, Diop's contract goes through 2013, though it's not a bad idea otherwise.


oops. espn trade machine didn't account for the player option. nevermind!
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Re: Official Trade Thread XV 

Post#320 » by Hoopalotta » Fri Jan 7, 2011 10:53 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:I forget the opposing player, but someone said the Wizards have 50-win talent this time next season.


Clyde Drexler said that while doing the color commentary for the Rockets game. I've never heard him say anything bad about anyone, so it's kind of like when your Mom tells you that you're special.
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