Official Trade Thread XV: 12/22/10 - 5/3/11

[Hoopalotta]

My main reservation - not enough to outright stop me, but enough to bite into my enthusiasm - is that I think Love's going to get a HUGE contract; probably a max deal.

Yup. That's the real problem. In general, it's not good to have guys who's "glory stats" are better than their actual impact; because players get paid according to their stats. The best way to ruin a franchise is to pay a non-franchise player franchise player money.

In Love's case, some of that money's probably coming in because he's marketable as well, so it's potentially even worse. Don't tell KillbertArenas.

It's kinda one of those things where the more I think about it, the less I like it. It's not enough to just add good players, you need guys who don't earn over their production levels.

[Ruzious]

My main reservation - not enough to outright stop me, but enough to bite into my enthusiasm - is that I think Love's going to get a HUGE contract; probably a max deal.

Yup. That's the real problem. In general, it's not good to have guys who's "glory stats" are better than their actual impact; because players get paid according to their stats. The best way to ruin a franchise is to pay a non-franchise player franchise player money.

Huh? Rebounding is only 1 facet of the game that Love excells at. He's a great halfcourt passer, a great outlet passer, is an excellent outside shooter with 3 point range, draws contact and is a good inside scorer, sets picks well... basically does everything you want from a PF except play good defense. If you really search for a reason not to acquire a player, you can find it - except in maybe a dozen players in the history of the game. Passing up a chance to get Love would be incredibly stupid. Unfortunately, the Wiz will not get that opportunity.

[mhd]

If the Wiz can't draft Perry Jones, What about Blatche+Lotto pick for Milsap?

[Hoopalotta]

If the Wiz can't draft Perry Jones, What about Blatche+Lotto pick for Milsap?

Utah's trying to retain Deron Williams - they can't just trade their second best player for future assets regardless of the value.

[MF23]

Yeah I agree Love isn't worth a max contract. I wonder how he'll fit on a good team. I'm certain power forwards from contending teams over the last few seasons would take his lunch. I've thought about Kevin Love and the only player I could picture him winning a championship with is Dwight Howard. It would take a great system with effective help defenders to compensate for Love's weaknesses.

Besides Kevin Love might have a weight problem. He seems to be getting thinner but it's hard to predict whether he'll improve or regress with his conditioning.

There are benefits I could see being useful from an owners perspective with having Love on the team. Be that as it may, I don't believe he's worth the contract his stats indicate.

[Dat2U]

Huh? Rebounding is only 1 facet of the game that Love excells at. He's a great halfcourt passer, a great outlet passer, is an excellent outside shooter with 3 point range, draws contact and is a good inside scorer, sets picks well... basically does everything you want from a PF except play good defense. If you really search for a reason not to acquire a player, you can find it - except in maybe a dozen players in the history of the game. Passing up a chance to get Love would be incredibly stupid. Unfortunately, the Wiz will not get that opportunity.

Ruz, I firmly in your court now. I was skeptical at first as well considering his defensive shortcomings but Love has been putting up incredible numbers and considering the situation in Minnesota, there may well be an opportunity to make a push for him. Looking at how weak the draft is, I wouldn't hesitate to add a player of Love's caliber into the mix if it cost us spare parts and this year's draft pick. People may want to point to Love's flaws but look at what's going to be available in the draft? All the prospects in the top 10 are incredibly flawed. I like Perry Jones potential more than most but realize he's a total gamble and has a long way to go to be a credible NBA player. I'd gladly take the sure thing in Love. Surround Love with length & quality defenders and you can win with him IMO.

[DaRealHibachi]

Huh? Rebounding is only 1 facet of the game that Love excells at. He's a great halfcourt passer, a great outlet passer, is an excellent outside shooter with 3 point range, draws contact and is a good inside scorer, sets picks well... basically does everything you want from a PF except play good defense. If you really search for a reason not to acquire a player, you can find it - except in maybe a dozen players in the history of the game. Passing up a chance to get Love would be incredibly stupid. Unfortunately, the Wiz will not get that opportunity.

Ruz, I firmly in your court now. I was skeptical at first as well considering his defensive shortcomings but Love has been putting up incredible numbers and considering the situation in Minnesota, there may well be an opportunity to make a push for him. Looking at how weak the draft is, I wouldn't hesitate to add a player of Love's caliber into the mix if it cost us spare parts and this year's draft pick. People may want to point to Love's flaws but look at what's going to be available in the draft? All the prospects in the top 10 are incredibly flawed. I like Perry Jones potential more than most but realize he's a total gamble and has a long way to go to be a credible NBA player. I'd gladly take the sure thing in Love. Surround Love with length & quality defenders and you can win with him IMO.

I'm probably a bit more skeptical than you guys, b/c I really don't want to see Love getting paired with McGee... It'll end up being a softer version of AJ/Haywood...

[Illuminaire]

I'm torn on Love. I don't know if he falls into the "super roleplayer" category, or beyond that to a true star. Either way, if he's the best player on your team then you aren't winning a ton of games (see Wolves, Timber) so paying him max money is right out.

[nate33]

It's really difficult to have this discussion without knowing the shape of the new CBA. I absolutely would not want to be paying Love max money (assuming that's roughly 1/3rd of the payroll) if there was a hard cap. We'd end up with a team of Wall, Love and a bunch of Cartier Martin type journeymen. There's no chance that team wins a championship.

If the cap had some degree of cap flexibility, and/or if a max salary ended up being a significantly smaller percentage of the total salary cap, then maybe the addition of Love makes sense.

The bottom line is that I don't think you can win if Love is your clear 2nd-best player. At best, you would need at least two other players on the team roughly as good as Love (plus a superstar, of course). I think the chances are that the new CBA is going to make it difficult to place that many talented players around Love if Love himself is making max money.

[pancakes3]

i mean... Kevin Love is good. he's no Troy Murphy, if that's what people are concerned about. He's the perfect "stretch" 4 since he's big enough to defend down low and skilled enough to shoot from outside. I think that's the PERFECT pf to be paired up with a penetrating guard like Wall. all those open jumpers that Blatche is bricking right now? Love would drain those. Heck, he'd probably not only drain those, he'd drain them from 5 feet further. It's the perfect pick-n-pop tandem. A bizarro stockton/malone if you will.

i wouldn't offer him a max contract either, especially with a hard cap. however, with a hard cap, i think you could compete for a championship if Love is your 2nd best player. he's a 20/15 guy right now. stat stuffing or not, that's talented. yeah, he's not exactly KG with the help defense, but he's no slouch either. opponent PER of 14.6/48min is well above average (better than say... Dirk).

also, with the handwaving that is "projecting", the man is only 22 years old and already a solid 20/10+ guy with the makings of a 25+/12+ guy in him. if you look around the league, 25/12 guys are NONEXISTENT. Pair him up with a guy like McGee and you'll have a very intimidating frontcourt - probably the best frontcourt in the league 3 years from now. you compound that with John Wall and Nick Young in the backcourt? why wouldn't we be in contention for a title?

[Ruzious]

It's really difficult to have this discussion without knowing the shape of the new CBA. I absolutely would not want to be paying Love max money (assuming that's roughly 1/3rd of the payroll) if there was a hard cap. We'd end up with a team of Wall, Love and a bunch of Cartier Martin type journeymen. There's no chance that team wins a championship.

If the cap had some degree of cap flexibility, and/or if a max salary ended up being a significantly smaller percentage of the total salary cap, then maybe the addition of Love makes sense.

The bottom line is that I don't think you can win if Love is your clear 2nd-best player. At best, you would need at least two other players on the team roughly as good as Love (plus a superstar, of course). I think the chances are that the new CBA is going to make it difficult to place that many talented players around Love if Love himself is making max money.

Love is an all-star caliber player, so what you're saying is the Wiz would need at least 2 other all-star caliber players along with Love and Wall to be where they need to get - but only if Wall develops into a superstar.

What player would you suggest acquiring other than Howard - realizing that any player of Love's caliber and above doesn't work for free, Ernie... er Nate? (The Ernie part meant in good humour)

Dat, I appreciate your post. The quality of young players - especially big men - coming into the NBA is slipping. When a guy like Plumlee is considered one of the better prospects, you know there's a decline.

[Illuminaire]

I don't think we should get too caught up with the concept of an "all-star caliber player." What does that even mean?

To most people, and to the media, it just means that guy puts up stats or can make some sick moves on the court. It's not really a good measure of on court success (See McGrady, Carter, Jamison, Butler). You may just mean that Love is really, really good of course, in which case I apologize for nit-picking.

I have to agree with Nate though. If Love is your second best player, you're probably not winning a championship, and the reason is very simple: defense. He tries hard. He's smart. But he's just not able to shuffle those feat fast enough, or raise that doughy body far enough off the ground, to really stop anyone from scoring on him. Or his teammates. Can you win with Love? Absolutely. Does he need to be paired with some excellent defenders at the three and five? I really think so.

Alternatively, I think Love would be *fantastic* in Nellieball. His entire job would be to eat boards and toss outlets to one of three streaking guards. Occasionally he could stroll down the court and take a three or something. That would be fun to watch. Not great for winning championships, but fun.

[nate33]

What player would you suggest acquiring other than Howard - realizing that any player of Love's caliber and above doesn't work for free, Ernie... er Nate? (The Ernie part meant in good humour)

First of all, if we're talking about a pure free agency acquisition, that might be a different story. It's one thing to sacrifice Young and a high lotto pick for the right to pay Love $14M in 2012. It's another to sign him for $14M outright.

Looking at the 2012 draft class, I think a sound argument could be made that we'd be better off signing, say, Serge Ibaka and Nicholas Batum for a net total of $14M or so, rather than paying Love alone $14M.

[WizarDynasty]

I don't think we should get too caught up with the concept of an "all-star caliber player." What does that even mean?

To most people, and to the media, it just means that guy puts up stats or can make some sick moves on the court. It's not really a good measure of on court success (See McGrady, Carter, Jamison, Butler). You may just mean that Love is really, really good of course, in which case I apologize for nit-picking.

I have to agree with Nate though. If Love is your second best player, you're probably not winning a championship, and the reason is very simple: defense. He tries hard. He's smart. But he's just not able to shuffle those feat fast enough, or raise that doughy body far enough off the ground, to really stop anyone from scoring on him. Or his teammates. Can you win with Love? Absolutely. Does he need to be paired with some excellent defenders at the three and five? I really think so.

Alternatively, I think Love would be *fantastic* in Nellieball. His entire job would be to eat boards and toss outlets to one of three streaking guards. Occasionally he could stroll down the court and take a three or something. That would be fun to watch. Not great for winning championships, but fun.

i laughed hard inside for a second. this post is so true.

[Ruzious]

What player would you suggest acquiring other than Howard - realizing that any player of Love's caliber and above doesn't work for free, Ernie... er Nate? (The Ernie part meant in good humour)

First of all, if we're talking about a pure free agency acquisition, that might be a different story. It's one thing to sacrifice Young and a high lotto pick for the right to pay Love $14M in 2012. It's another to sign him for $14M outright.

Looking at the 2012 draft class, I think a sound argument could be made that we'd be better off signing, say, Serge Ibaka and Nicholas Batum for a net total of $14M or so, rather than paying Love alone $14M.

If you can do that do it, but if Ibaka costs in the neighborhood of 7 or 8 mil, there's an approximately 100% chance OKC finds a way to keep him - no matter what the new CBA is - unless they take away restricted free agency. They need him more than they need Green.

[nate33]

What player would you suggest acquiring other than Howard - realizing that any player of Love's caliber and above doesn't work for free, Ernie... er Nate? (The Ernie part meant in good humour)

First of all, if we're talking about a pure free agency acquisition, that might be a different story. It's one thing to sacrifice Young and a high lotto pick for the right to pay Love $14M in 2012. It's another to sign him for $14M outright.

Looking at the 2012 draft class, I think a sound argument could be made that we'd be better off signing, say, Serge Ibaka and Nicholas Batum for a net total of $14M or so, rather than paying Love alone $14M.

If you can do that do it, but if Ibaka costs in the neighborhood of 7 or 8 mil, there's an approximately 100% chance OKC finds a way to keep him - no matter what the new CBA is - unless they take away restricted free agency. They need him more than they need Green.

Bummer. I just checked. Even though Ibaka was drafted in McGee's draft class, he won't be a free agent in 2012 like McGee. Ibaka basically redshirted his first year by staying in Europe, which delayed the start of his rookie contract.

[Ruzious]

It was a good thought, Nate. I know I've said it before, but there are just very few good big men, and they're really hard to get.

[LyricalRico]

Wizards trade: Blatche, Yi, and Armstrong
Wizards receive: Thompson and Mohammed

Bobcats trade: Diaw and Mohammed
Bobcats receive: Haywood, Blatche, and Yi

Mavs trade: Haywood
Mavs receive: Garcia and Armstrong

Kings trade: Garcia and Thompson
Kings receive: Diaw

TRADE ID 5806755

Sacto gets longterm cap savings, Dallas gets their swingman, Charlotte adds size, and the Wizards drop their underachieving PF prospect.

[theboomking]

It's my first post here, so please don't skewer me. definitely think that Love is worth a max contract. As others have pointed out, he's not just a great rebounder, but is also a good outlet passer, and a very good shooter. He'd mesh perfectly with Wall, rebounding the ball and starting the break, and spreading the floor. As someone else pointed out, you'd be best served to pair Love with a great defender at the center position, but you wouldn't have to have Dwight howard. Someone of the ilk of Tyson Chandler would be just fine.

Now that we've bridged the issue though. Love would pair perfectly with Wall and Dwight Howard, which actually could increase Love's value to us. Love actually isn't a RFA until 2012. That is the same year that Howard has his ETO, and Wall will still be on his rookie deal. If we were able to swing a deal for Love now, say Blatche, Young, and our Lotto pick this year, that could actually make us a potential top free agent destination for Dwight Howard. We'd have to go over the luxury tax to keep Love and Wall, but Ted has shown a willingness to spend with the Caps, and I don't see that being a huge issue.

The threesome really is a much better fit than LBJ, Bosh and Wade. A dynamic PG, a future HOF center, and a rebounding, outlet passing, outside shooting machine to stretch the floor. That might be a hard combination for Howard to turn down, and should compete for a trip to the NBA Finals on a regular basis.

[LyricalRico]

It's my first post here

Welcome! And now for a few choice words about your trade idea...

so please don't skewer me

...oh, nevermind then.

Love would pair perfectly with Wall and Dwight Howard, which actually could increase Love's value to us. Love actually isn't a RFA until 2012. That is the same year that Howard has his ETO, and Wall will still be on his rookie deal. If we were able to swing a deal for Love now, say Blatche, Young, and our Lotto pick this year, that could actually make us a potential top free agent destination for Dwight Howard.

Seriously - it's an interesting thought, although I wonder if Howard+Love wouldn't be "frontcourt overload". I mean, I wouldn't want to pay Love the max just for him to be a jumpshooter while Howard camps out in the lane. And if the "no MLE" prediction we're having in another thread really does come true, we'd be pretty screwed when it came to building an entire roster.

Maybe I'm seeing issues where none would exist, but I'd probably prefer to keep it to pairing Wall with just one max big and then have the ability to build a more complete supporting cast.