Official Trade Thread XV: 12/22/10 - 5/3/11

[Hoopalotta]

And if the "no MLE" prediction we're having in another thread really does come true, we'd be pretty screwed when it came to building an entire roster.

Maybe I'm seeing issues where none would exist, but I'd probably prefer to keep it to pairing Wall with just one max big and then have the ability to build a more complete supporting cast.

Yeah, this touches on my concerns about these Love trade ideas - I could maybe accept overpaying him contractually, but the idea of kicking in a bunch of productive rookie deals in order to have the right to do so is massive dosage of fiscal jeopardy. I don't know how viable it's going to be to not have some bargain contracts on the books in the next CBA.

And as Nate was noting earlier, we're getting ourselves out of the 2012 free agent market with the Love trades. So it's potentially more like Seraphin+2011 Lottery Pick+Other Free agent for Love. That's a big swing.

[Ed Wood]

I'm, well probably unreasonably biased against Love because I've always regarded him as something of a selfish player and I am thoroughly sick of hearing about his outlet passes and how he is an island of excellence in a sea of awful in Minnesota in the same way Kevin Garnett used to be. Love is obviously a fabulous rebounder, and Minnesota as a team is a good rebounding team probably largely because of him.

At the same time he is a bad defender and Minnesota is a bad defensive team, and he is also probably a pretty significant component of that. He's also not an especially good finisher inside, almost 20% of his interior shots are blocked and if anything his three point shooting this year looks a little fluky (though it's hard to say because he didn't shoot nearly as many his previous two years) because his long two percentage hasn't improved and he wasn't a great three point shooter prior to this year. His relatively low turnover percentage is also more impressive to me than his passing, which is only a little above average.

The bottom line that I can't really explain away is that the Wolves have been for two years running way better with Love on the floor, but I watch him defensively and I just can't get behind a max deal. I dunno, what can I say, I don't like the guy.

[Hoopalotta]

I dunno, what can I say, I don't like the guy.

I have a similar feeling, don't know what to say, but I can't even get that excited about his offense.

I watched about five quarters of him in the last 10 days or so and it seems to me that he habitually moves his feet to defend the rim and position himself between it and opposing penetrators, which sounds good, except he wasn't putting his arms in the air to challenge shots against guards. It was really a pattern that showed up against the Spurs, as Tony and Manu were getting into the lane a lot.

Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but it seemed like he just wanted guys to put the shot up so that he could go for the board and he felt better about getting the board if he could read and react with his head on a swivel (you know, his arms being up too early was going to mess that up). I could be wrong about the why, but for whatever reason, he was not even attempting to challenge shots that he was in position to affect (as noted, he moved his feet well enough given his foot speed). And that's just talking about raising his arms, never minding anything so drastic as actually jumping. It just left a bad taste in my mouth.

We'll see him for four quarters very shortly, but I'm cashing in my "I just can't get myself to like this guy and I don't want to hear too much lip about it" chip now.

[dangermouse]

Wizards trade: Blatche, Yi, and Armstrong
Wizards receive: Thompson and Mohammed

Bobcats trade: Diaw and Mohammed
Bobcats receive: Haywood, Blatche, and Yi

Mavs trade: Haywood
Mavs receive: Garcia and Armstrong

Kings trade: Garcia and Thompson
Kings receive: Diaw

TRADE ID 5806755

Sacto gets longterm cap savings, Dallas gets their swingman, Charlotte adds size, and the Wizards drop their underachieving PF prospect.

Mavs, obviously they are downgrading their backup C, but Chandler has been off the hook and seems to be healthy. And of course they get a bit of a replacement for Caron.

Bobcats get a PF and C combo who have played together before and know each other, theres enough intangibles/chemistry there that it could increase their wins.

Kings probably say no. Im sure they would like the savings, but im pretty sure they want to keep JT around, he seems like a good pairing with Cousins and has been playing well. Evans, JT and Cousins should be the King's core moving forward. Add in a PG in the "3 and D" mold and they are a playoff team again. I think theyll want to use Landry to move salary instead. Totally not interested in Landry. Nice player but not worth moving Blatche for.

[Dat2U]

It's one thing to sacrifice Young and a high lotto pick for the right to pay Love $14M in 2012. It's another to sign him for $14M outright.

I'm still very skeptical of Nick Young. His performance has been a revelation but that fact it didn't happen until his contract year and the fact he's still not an incredibly efficient player gives me great pause. Like Nivek said a week or so ago, he's a good scorer on a bad team but not necessarily a top scoring option on a good team. I would seriously hesitate to give him a long term deal. I'd much rather overpay a 20 & 15 player in Kevin Love than a streaky one dimensional low IQ scorer in Nick Young.

And while Seraphin shows some hints of potential as a low post defender I honestly don't see him as much more than a bit player offering more than 6 fouls going forward. The guy is just too raw to offer up much of anything than a huge body to clog up space in the paint and set hard picks.

Seraphin & Young are replaceable spare parts. And a lottery pick in this year's coming draft isn't likely to come close to producing a 20 & 15 guy. Some have mentioned Jared Sullinger as the best ready made prospect at a position of need this draft has to offer and he looks a lot like a poor man's Kevin Love. Yes, the defensive issues are concerning and he's not a perfect player but to me the Love, Wall & McGee trio seem like a perfect fit where everyone's strengths are magnified. Wall is one man fast break off the missed shot and who better to grab those defensive boards and get him the rock other than Love? Who's a better PF to spread the floor with driving lanes for Wall with his ability to hit the 3 consistently than Love?

The financial considerations are worthy of discussion. Is Love worth the max? Maybe not, but he's not worth significantly less either. But I've long held the theory that you pay for your all-stars and you surround them with bargains. I'd rather have 3 highly paid stars (like Miami) than a star with a bunch overpaid mid-salaried players who aren't really difference makers. Nick Young ain't helping anyone win games. Never has, never will.

[tontoz]

Dat2U,

Lets assume that Young is resigned for $5 million/yr. How many 2 guards in the east would you prefer to have, taking their contract/age into consideration?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... aders.html

Kevin Love is close to the top in PER, Win Share, Offensive Win Share, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rebound Percentage, Free Throws, and Minutes. He is first in Offensive Rebounds, Defensive Rebounds, Total Rebounds, Offensive Rebound Percentage.

His 36-min averages: 20.8 points, 15.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 2.3 turnovers, 2.2 personal fouls
Player Efficiency Rating: 24.3 (5th)
22 years old

The team that gets him will be getting a future HOF player.

Can't see many trade ideas for Love being realized,

[nate33]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html

Kevin Love is close to the top in PER, Win Share, Offensive Win Share, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rebound Percentage, Free Throws, and Minutes.0 He is first in Offensive Rebounds, Defensive Rebounds, Total Rebounds, Offensive Rebound Percentage.

His 36-min averages: 20.8 points, 15.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 2.3 turnovers, 2.2 personal fouls
Player Efficiency Rating: 24.3 (5th)
22 years old

The team that gets him will be getting a future HOF player.

Can't see many trade ideas for Love being realized,

I don't know what to tell you, but this is the case where I, The Stat Guy, don't believe the numbers. I just find it hard to accept that Love can be such a good player when his team stinks so bad. How does a team with Love plus 5 other top 7 draft picks have a record of 9-29?

[pcbothwel]

I think Blatche is the perfect buy-low PF to help spread the floor for the Pacers and Hibbert for the years to come. I think Granger is the perfect buy-low wing for a contender over the next 3 years. Could we help facilitate a Granger Trade where we use Blatche+Expirings and maybe even NY if need be to get our hands on young talent and or Picks. While the Knicks, Jazz and others look like good fits, here is one trade that could be interesting:

Was IN: A.Aminu, J. Posey, LAC or Det 2nd
Was OUT: Blatche, Thornton

Ind IN: Blatche, B. Davis, Thornton, 2011 1st or Minnesota
Ind Out: Granger, TJ Ford, Posey

LAC IN: Granger, Ford
LAC OUT: B. Davis, A. Aminu, 2011 1st with protection, 2011 2nd

We lose Blatche and an EXP in thornton, but we get back much needed youth on the wing and a guy who I think can be a solid compliment to Wall in Aminu. Posey expires with Kirk so that provides flexibility in the summer of 2012.
Indy gives up Granger but gets out of the Posey contract. B.Davis is not very valuable but he has come on really strong as of late and I think he'll only get better by leaving LA (and Sterling). Blatche is there for obvious reasons and Thronton gives the SF position some stability while P. George gets established.
LAC Get and expiring in ford to help relief of Davis contract and the prize of the trade...Granger. The Clips also have two 2nds (theres and Detriots) that have some value as well as the Minny 1st (top 10 protected this year, no protection next year) The clips also have so much youth, that more picks dont have as much value to them. Bledsoe, Gorden, Granger, Griffin, Jordan/Kaman is very promising.

[nate33]

It's a nice try pcbothwel, but there's no way Indy goes for it. They turn Posey's bad contract into Davis' much worse contract while also downgrading from Granger to Blatche. The Clippers protected first isn't enough to get them to swallow that bitter pill.

I don't see a way to make it work. The Clippers don't have enough "filler" contracts to absorb Granger, they have to send out either Davis or Kaman. Nobody wants Davis. And neither Indy nor Washington want Kaman bad enough that they will pay fair value for him.

The best we could do is:

Washington trades: Blatche + Yi + Howard
Washignton receives: Aminu + Kaman

Indy trades: Granger + Posey
Indy receives: Blatche + Yi + Howard

LA trades: Kaman + Aminu
LA receives: Granger + Posey

But still, I don't think Indy does it. Blatche and cap relief just isn't enough incentive to get Indy to trade Granger. Maybe it could work if we send Kaman elsewhere for a crappy 2012 expiring plus a pick, and send that pick to Indy. But there aren't many large crappy 2012 contracts out there.

[Ruzious]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html

Kevin Love is close to the top in PER, Win Share, Offensive Win Share, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rebound Percentage, Free Throws, and Minutes.0 He is first in Offensive Rebounds, Defensive Rebounds, Total Rebounds, Offensive Rebound Percentage.

His 36-min averages: 20.8 points, 15.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 2.3 turnovers, 2.2 personal fouls
Player Efficiency Rating: 24.3 (5th)
22 years old

The team that gets him will be getting a future HOF player.

Can't see many trade ideas for Love being realized,

I don't know what to tell you, but this is the case where I, The Stat Guy, don't believe the numbers. I just find it hard to accept that Love can be such a good player when his team stinks so bad. How does a team with Love plus 5 other top 7 draft picks have a record of 9-29?

I posted the reason a few days ago. Just the fact that Minny has high picks doesn't mean they' have talent. I'll go over it again. Beasley is the second best player on the team. He was basically a complete and total flop with Miami - last season. And he really doesn't have a position and doesn't guard anyone. Their center was picked ahead of Wade, but he's been generally regarded as a Kwame type bust. Their starting PG can't guard anyone and is nothing more than a decent journeyman. And Wes Johnson is probably going to be good, but right now he's a rookie SF playing shooting guard with the ups and downs you'd expect of... a rookie SF playing shooting guard. Flynn's a flop, Brewer's an ordinary player like I've said since before they drafted him, and Rubio's in Italy.

[pcbothwel]

It's a nice try pcbothwel, but there's no way Indy goes for it. They turn Posey's bad contract into Davis' much worse contract while also downgrading from Granger to Blatche. The Clippers protected first isn't enough to get them to swallow that bitter pill.

Yeah, but that Minny pick is top 10 protected this year (and minny sucks so they'll keep it) and UNPROTECTED next year. Minnesota has the right combo of lack of stars and poor management to lead them to another really poor season. So while Indy has to bite the contract bullitt, they must also realize that they have not much besides Granger to work with and no top FA will go to Indy, and if they will, they are probably not worth the amount they would have to pay. So with this, Indy in 2011 looks like:
Baron/ Collison
Rush
George
Blatche/ Hansbourgh
Hibbert
Keep in Mind that they would bave a lotto pick in 2011 & 2012 as well as a top 3-5 pick in 2012 (A. Rivers?)

Thats a promising future if I may say so myself. Going into the 2013 season they would have Hibbert, Hansbourgh, Collison, and George on Rookie deals (maybe Hibbert extended already), there 2011 lotto pick with 2 years experience and they're TWO top 5-10 picks of 2012 with one year experience. VERY attractive for the top FA to hop on that train.
TBH, I think LA only does this with the minny pick because of their glut of you talent and future picks. Just a thought...

[nate33]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html

Kevin Love is close to the top in PER, Win Share, Offensive Win Share, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rebound Percentage, Free Throws, and Minutes.0 He is first in Offensive Rebounds, Defensive Rebounds, Total Rebounds, Offensive Rebound Percentage.

His 36-min averages: 20.8 points, 15.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 2.3 turnovers, 2.2 personal fouls
Player Efficiency Rating: 24.3 (5th)
22 years old

The team that gets him will be getting a future HOF player.

Can't see many trade ideas for Love being realized,

I don't know what to tell you, but this is the case where I, The Stat Guy, don't believe the numbers. I just find it hard to accept that Love can be such a good player when his team stinks so bad. How does a team with Love plus 5 other top 7 draft picks have a record of 9-29?

I posted the reason a few days ago. Just the fact that Minny has high picks doesn't mean they' have talent. I'll go over it again. Beasley is the second best player on the team. He was basically a complete and total flop with Miami - last season. And he really doesn't have a position and doesn't guard anyone. Their center was picked ahead of Wade, but he's been generally regarded as a Kwame type bust. Their starting PG can't guard anyone and is nothing more than a decent journeyman. And Wes Johnson is probably going to be good, but right now he's a rookie SF playing shooting guard with the ups and downs you'd expect of... a rookie SF playing shooting guard. Flynn's a flop, Brewer's an ordinary player like I've said since before they drafted him, and Rubio's in Italy.

Don't forget Darko, who is having a breakout year. You would think that with a front line of Darko, Love and Beasley, they wouldn't be 9-19.

Anyhoo, I'm not saying you are wrong. I freely admit that I could be the one that's wrong. All I'm saying is that my gut tells me that Kevin Love isn't as good as his numbers. As such, I think we would have to overpay (both in trade assets or salary) to acquire him. My feeling is that we would end up disappointed.

[LyricalRico]

Are we still interested in trading for Wes Johnson as a possible SF for the future? I recall lots of talk about that over the summer. Minny drafted him before trading for Beasley and him having a breakout year statistically. They also have Martell Webster, who's probably a better shooter than Johnson and would probably be better suited at SG. Maybe Johnson is no longer in their longterm plans.

How about this if NJ acquires Billups in a Melo deal (and he doesn't demand a buyout)...

Wizards trade: Blatche
Wizards receive: Johnson and Telfailr

Nets trade: Harris
Nets receive: Blatche and Flynn

Wolves trade: Johnson, Flynn, and Telfair
Wolves receive: Harris

TRADE ID 5807545

Yes, we have Lewis, but I don't see him as a guy who would protest a bench role next season if we turned the SF spot over to Johnson. NJ gets a young big to replace the young big they lose in the Melo trade. And the Wolves get a stud PG to run their team while they wait for Rubio. Ridnour becomes an expensive backup, but they never should have given him that contract in the first place.

[pcbothwel]

^ Great thought, but isnt Harris goin to Denver where their hoping to flip him...

[nate33]

I really like the idea, Rico.

What does Minny think of Flynn? Have they given up on him and consider him a complete bust with no value, or is he a guy that is still "developing"? If they still have hope for him, I'm not sure they do this. If they view him as pure filler, than this deal makes a lot of sense for all parties.

If we draft Sullinger, our lineup would be pretty well balanced:

PG Wall/Hinrich
SG Young/Hinrich
SF W.Johnson/Lewis
PF Sullinger/Lewis/Booker
C McGee/Serapin

[Ruzious]

I don't know what to tell you, but this is the case where I, The Stat Guy, don't believe the numbers. I just find it hard to accept that Love can be such a good player when his team stinks so bad. How does a team with Love plus 5 other top 7 draft picks have a record of 9-29?

I posted the reason a few days ago. Just the fact that Minny has high picks doesn't mean they' have talent. I'll go over it again. Beasley is the second best player on the team. He was basically a complete and total flop with Miami - last season. And he really doesn't have a position and doesn't guard anyone. Their center was picked ahead of Wade, but he's been generally regarded as a Kwame type bust. Their starting PG can't guard anyone and is nothing more than a decent journeyman. And Wes Johnson is probably going to be good, but right now he's a rookie SF playing shooting guard with the ups and downs you'd expect of... a rookie SF playing shooting guard. Flynn's a flop, Brewer's an ordinary player like I've said since before they drafted him, and Rubio's in Italy.

Don't forget Darko, who is having a breakout year. You would think that with a front line of Darko, Love and Beasley, they wouldn't be 9-19.

Anyhoo, I'm not saying you are wrong. I freely admit that I could be the one that's wrong. All I'm saying is that my gut tells me that Kevin Love isn't as good as his numbers. As such, I think we would have to overpay (both in trade assets or salary) to acquire him. My feeling is that we would end up disappointed.

Darko is the "center was picked ahead of Wade, but he's been generally regarded as a Kwame type bust." I am saying you're wrong. Breakout year, really? Why, because he blocks shots? As Zards fans, we know blocked shots don't equal good defense. Darko's never been known for defense, and his offense... 46% shooting for a center stinks, and he averages 1 made foul shot a game. Love's weakness is D, so surrounding him with poor defenders and a lousy backcourt = 9-19. Do you really disagree?

Btw, Johnson is definitely in Minny's plans.

[Hoopalotta]

I'm still very skeptical of Nick Young. His performance has been a revelation but that fact it didn't happen until his contract year and the fact he's still not an incredibly efficient player gives me great pause. Like Nivek said a week or so ago, he's a good scorer on a bad team but not necessarily a top scoring option on a good team.

To me the Love, Wall & McGee trio seem like a perfect fit where everyone's strengths are magnified.

I actually have a linked concern about both Young and Love in that I think each of them can be taken out of their offensive games through the sorts of game planning that you'll see in the postseason. Tom Thibby-Dough furiously kneading his man boobs while concocting multi-layered foils built around long limbed help leaking over strikes me as the sort of thing that's going to stymie both guys.

Nick, because he's one dimensional and not cerebral enough to make adjustments or punish doubles with his passing, Love because he's a bit slow motion and doesn't have much that's go-to. Sure, his pick and pop and put back games probably aren't going anywhere, but as I've watched the Wolves, I'm seeing Love put up a lot of “Brad Miller in the driveway with a Budweiser” shots that wouldn't be there if the other team was really digging in (hmmm, sounds like “Colonel Mustard in the parlor with with the revolver”). I'm continually thinking, "wait, they let him get that shot off?", with his post-ups in particular looking vulnerable against outstretched opposing appendages. From what I've seen, you won't need doubles on those.

They both strike me as fitting in on teams like those 50 win Grizzly squads that got seriously ramshackled in multiple four game series (or would that be 'serieses'?). Nick might be alright depending on his contract if he's far enough down the pecking order to where Thibby-Dough can only afford to give him a few kneads of contemplation, but I have no optimism about Love as the second option scorer behind Wall.

[verbal8]

Are we still interested in trading for Wes Johnson as a possible SF for the future? I recall lots of talk about that over the summer. Minny drafted him before trading for Beasley and him having a breakout year statistically. They also have Martell Webster, who's probably a better shooter than Johnson and would probably be better suited at SG. Maybe Johnson is no longer in their longterm plans.

How about this if NJ acquires Billups in a Melo deal (and he doesn't demand a buyout)...

Wizards trade: Blatche
Wizards receive: Johnson and Telfailr

Nets trade: Harris
Nets receive: Blatche and Flynn

Wolves trade: Johnson, Flynn, and Telfair
Wolves receive: Harris

TRADE ID 5807545

Yes, we have Lewis, but I don't see him as a guy who would protest a bench role next season if we turned the SF spot over to Johnson. NJ gets a young big to replace the young big they lose in the Melo trade. And the Wolves get a stud PG to run their team while they wait for Rubio. Ridnour becomes an expensive backup, but they never should have given him that contract in the first place.

This deal could work with the Nuggets in place of the Nets(since they are only giving up one player there is no waiting period on the trade). It may actually make more sense for the rebuilding Nuggets. The Nuggets may want to dump a contract and cash on the Twolves to slide under the luxury tax.

This would make Lewis the Wizards starting PF. If they made this deal, I think the Wizards should pursue Perkins as a long term defensive center option or Dalembert as a stop gap.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_leaders.html

Kevin Love is close to the top in PER, Win Share, Offensive Win Share, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rebound Percentage, Free Throws, and Minutes.0 He is first in Offensive Rebounds, Defensive Rebounds, Total Rebounds, Offensive Rebound Percentage.

His 36-min averages: 20.8 points, 15.4 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 2.3 turnovers, 2.2 personal fouls
Player Efficiency Rating: 24.3 (5th)
22 years old

The team that gets him will be getting a future HOF player.

Can't see many trade ideas for Love being realized,

I don't know what to tell you, but this is the case where I, The Stat Guy, don't believe the numbers. I just find it hard to accept that Love can be such a good player when his team stinks so bad. How does a team with Love plus 5 other top 7 draft picks have a record of 9-29?

One of the players is Darko Milicic. Another is Beasley. Flynn's been hurt but he never should have gone top five (or was he sixth?--don't even want to Google). So, some of their top talent is questionable. What kind of coach is Rambis? In the past, Rambis was against Love the same way Saunders doesn't trust McGee. But aside from those reasons, Minny plays tough through three quarters, but in the fourth they can't get stops. Their forwards defensively remind me of Butler and Jamison. They outscore you but cannot stop an opposing scorer.