Has Tom Thibodeau Proven That....

Patterns · Post #1 » by **Patterns** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:23 am

great defense has a lot more to do with the coach than the players? Seriously, wherever Tom Thibodeau has gone, he's turn the team into either the #1 defensive team or the #2 defensive team. First the Rockets, then the Celtics, now he has the Bulls as the #1 defensive team in the NBA with Noah only playing half of the games.

Not so long ago, Rose, Pierce, Allen were considered a defensive liabilities. Now they are part of great defensive teams. The Celtics in 07-08 had, statistically, the greatest defense ever.

He's got a injury riddled Bulls team that has no notable defenders and turned them into an elite defensive team.

I feel like great defense can be taught to any NBA Player with the right coach. Those of you who are saying that Griffin and Love are bad defenders, do you think they still are if they are playing for Tom Thibodeau?

Cigamodnalro · Post #2 » by **Cigamodnalro** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:25 am

Defense is a matter of motivation + strategy + communication. It's the NBA. They're all elite-level athletes, and many are fully capable of being very effective defenders. Just have to bring it out in 'em.

Post #3 » by **kingkirk** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:28 am

I agree with everything you said.

I also believe Thibs has challenged the players to actually put effort on that end of the floor, unlike VDN.

Thibs is a defensive genius, no question.

Credit to Thibs for actually getting the players to buy into everything he preaches.

Outside of Pop he is my coach of the year

THROWBACK_91 · Post #4 » by **THROWBACK_91** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:46 am

Great OP

larcat · Post #5 » by **larcat** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:59 am

Pretty sure that T-Bone was made illegal by an Anti-Ballistic-Missile treaty this winter.

He is considered a controlled substance in Russia, The U.S.A and Britain. North Korea has economic sanctions placed on it for attempting to purchase just 3 ounces of T-Bone.

D-31 · Post #6 » by **D-31** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:03 pm

Cigamodnalro wrote:Defense is a matter of motivation + strategy + communication. It's the NBA. They're all elite-level athletes, and many are fully capable of being very effective defenders. Just have to bring it out in 'em.

.

Though mostly true much more so in the regular season than in the post season.

And most coaches that harp on defense will eventually wear thin on players and they'll suffer a setback.

6_Rings · Post #7 » by **6_Rings** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:15 pm

proves that u can teach defense.

BadWolf · Post #8 » by **BadWolf** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:42 pm

weren't Bulls great defensive team before Thibs?
and they have a bunch of great defensive players
but I agree, Thibs is a great defensive coach

Post #9 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:00 pm

BadWolf wrote:weren't Bulls great defensive team before Thibs?

They were doing pretty well under Scott Skiles.

mysticbb · Post #10 » by **mysticbb** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:09 pm

tsherkin wrote:
BadWolf wrote:weren't Bulls great defensive team before Thibs?

They were doing pretty well under Scott Skiles.

Yes, Scott Skiles made the Bulls the best defensive team in 2007 and the 2nd best in 2005. But from that time only Luol Deng is still on the Bulls.
Deng is maybe an underrated defender, because he isn't the highlight guy. But Deng is very fundamental in terms of defense and doesn't make a lot of mistake. Maybe the player in the league with the fewest amount of defensive lapses. But that is something most people seem to not recognize. His off-the-ball action on defense and offense is very underrated and let people believe that he is totally overpaid while in fact he isn't. Deng is playing 39 minutes per game for a reason.

Regarding Skiles: The Bucks are currently also one of the best defensive teams in the league, but they have a similar problem like those 2005 Bulls; they are bad on offense. Skiles doesn't really have a system on offense which is working fine with the players. When they are getting it done of offense by "themself", Skiles' teams will win a lot of games. Like the Bulls in 2007 and the Bucks last season.

YFZblu · Post #11 » by **YFZblu** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:13 pm

People talk about defense requiring things like hustle, heart, effort, etc...But IMO defense is a talent, just like scoring is a talent. You never would have expected Bruce Bowen to score 30 points or dish 15 assists, just like you wouldn't expect Steve Nash to suddenly become a great individual defender simply because he started trying harder.

I think a coach can influence how a defense plays by implementing a defensive system that works for the players and by providing a system that the guys believe in--But I wouldn't expect even Thibs to turn a team like the Suns into a respectable defensive unit simply because the Suns don't feature enough defensive talent to win that way.

mysticbb · Post #12 » by **mysticbb** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:40 pm

YFZblu wrote:I think a coach can influence how a defense plays by implementing a defensive system that works for the players and by providing a system that the guys believe in--But I wouldn't expect even Thibs to turn a team like the Suns into a respectable defensive unit simply because the Suns don't feature enough defensive talent to win that way.

Actually I think the current Suns could play a better defense than they are doing right now with a better defensive system. Players like Carter, Pietrius and Gortat played within a great defensive scheme in Orlando. They have the talent and the fundamentals to do it in Phoenix too. A good defensive scheme can hide the weaknesses of some players. Nash for example isn't quite that bad defensively. He has some limitation, but I don't see why he couldn't be a part of a Top5 defense in the league. Grant Hill played on rather good defensive teams in Detroit, he has all the fundamentals to be a good defensive player.

Look at the Bulls and Boozer for example. Boozer is a weak defender, not only for his position, but within a proper defensive scheme his weaknesses aren't that obvious anymore. A similar thing can be done with the Suns.

Yes, you need talent for this. Great length and quick feet are really helpful, but the mental part seems to be a much bigger problem. If a player understands the game, he most likely also understands how to play defense. Having high basketball iq players on the team can help a lot and making the proper moves can overshadow athletic limitations. That is the reason why Kurt Thomas still works really good defensively and that is also the reason why Deng is such a great defender. It is not their athletic abilities, it is their understanding of the game. And the Suns have players which understand the game.

YFZblu · Post #13 » by **YFZblu** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:51 pm

mysticbb wrote:Actually I think the current Suns could play a better defense than they are doing right now with a better defensive system. Players like Carter, Pietrius and Gortat played within a great defensive scheme in Orlando. They have the talent and the fundamentals to do it in Phoenix too. A good defensive scheme can hide the weaknesses of some players. Nash for example isn't quite that bad defensively. He has some limitation, but I don't see why he couldn't be a part of a Top5 defense in the league. Grant Hill played on rather good defensive teams in Detroit, he has all the fundamentals to be a good defensive player.

Well yeah, Nash is a passable team defender, and Grant Hill is talented defensively---The Suns could be slightly better, but keep in mind that in Orlando Vince Carter had Dwight Howard behind him, and Pietrus just flat out doesn't play right now in Phoenix.

The biggest problem I see is that Phoenix doesn't have many players who dedicate themselves to taking the opposing team out of its comfort zone. For example, last night the Bobcats shot lights-out, and the Suns man-to-man defense wasn't even that bad. Many around me were saying things like "its their night" or "there's nothing you can do about that"....But that's the problem, Phoenix wasn't BAD defensively, but the Bobcats were clearly comfortable taking seemingly tough shots and were able to sustain it for an entire game...In my opinion defense starts in the front court, and Phoenix doesn't exactly have defensive stalwarts at the PF/C positions right now.

Post #14 » by **coldfish** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:00 pm

Bulls defensive rank by season:

10/11: 1st
9/10: 11th
8/9: 18th
7/8: 14th
6/7: 1st
5/6: 7th
4/5: 2nd

IMO, its a 60/40 mix of coaching and players. I think basically any NBA level team has the athleticism to be a good defensive team. Many teams don't want to though due to attitude, etc. Coaching is still more important. Even if you have willing players, a coach who doesn't care isn't going to have a good defense.

irie · Post #15 » by **irie** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:12 pm

You need a combination of a coach who motivates people to play on defense with players who are receptive to whatever their coaching staff puts forward. If you have a bunch of players who only half listen to the coaches then they can yell about defense all they want but it won't happen.

Cliff Levingston · Post #16 » by **Cliff Levingston** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:18 pm

Patterns wrote:He's got a injury riddled Bulls team that has no notable defenders and turned them into an elite defensive team.

Not really "injury riddled", just a couple important injuries. Brewer came into the season less than 100% but he's fine now. Obviously Boozer and Noah have missed time, but Boozer missing time in favor of Taj actually improves the defense.

The part about "no notable defenders" isn't even remotely accurate. In the past, Deng has received a couple DPOY votes and is one of the best defenders at his position in the league. Ronnie Brewer is known for his defense. Keith Bogans isn't a good player but he's always put forth the effort defensively. Taj Gibson came out of USC as a defensive stalwart. Joakim Noah is obviously lauded for his defense, specifically his help/rotational defense. Omer Asik is a raw rookie Turkish import who would often block 8+ shots in the Turkish league; pretty much the only thing he's done well this season is rotate defensively and challenge shots (before hacking for a foul). Kurt Thomas is known for his savvy post defense.

If anything, there were only 4 rotation players on the Bulls coming into the season not known for their defense or considered to be bad defenders:

1. Rose. Maybe it's Thibbadough's influence but he's been anything but a defensive liability this year. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find many better defenders than him at the 1 this year. He's been quite outstanding there, really.
2. Boozer. And really, he hasn't improved at all. He's sometimes lazy rotating, and when's not lazy, he's slow. He also doesn't challenge shots but at least he communicates with his teammates well.
3. Korver. Slow footed, gets beat one-on-one with frequency and commits some stupid fouls from being too aggressive, but he does rotate off the ball well, at least.
4. Watson. He's not terrible but not good.

SichtingLives · Post #17 » by **SichtingLives** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:29 pm

Patterns wrote:great defense has a lot more to do with the coach than the players? Seriously, wherever Tom Thibodeau has gone, he's turn the team into either the #1 defensive team or the #2 defensive team. First the Rockets, then the Celtics, now he has the Bulls as the #1 defensive team in the NBA with Noah only playing half of the games.

Not so long ago, Rose, Pierce, Allen were considered a defensive liabilities. Now they are part of great defensive teams. The Celtics in 07-08 had, statistically, the greatest defense ever.

He's got a injury riddled Bulls team that has no notable defenders and turned them into an elite defensive team.

I feel like great defense can be taught to any NBA Player with the right coach. Those of you who are saying that Griffin and Love are bad defenders, do you think they still are if they are playing for Tom Thibodeau?

Good post, but a great defensive coach without the right players won't have a great defense. Also, Pierce was never a defensive liability or anything close to it. Ray Allen's D, however, has blossomed more each year since he came to Boston. It's tough to say who deserves credit for what because KG changed the attitude of the team in regards to committing to defense play in and play out, and Doc has always emphasized defense with varying (sometimes depressing) results over the years. Who really knows what is said or goes on behind closed doors.

But there's no denying Thibs laid down a great blueprint for the Celtics and he's doing in again with the Bulls.

illiance · Post #18 » by **illiance** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:39 pm

I think a lot of the Bulls players are underrated defenders if you think it's all Thibs. Deng, Omer, Taj, Brewer, Watson, Thomas and Noah would be good defenders on any team. The scheme helps a lot when it comes to help and rotations but Thibs couldn't take a team of Kevin Love's and make them a top 10 defensive team.

Ron Harper · Post #19 » by **Ron Harper** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:41 pm

It was proven long before any of us were born that defense is a result of effort and concentration. I'm sure Thibs let the Bulls player know this.

Clocian · Post #20 » by **Clocian** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:17 pm

illiance wrote:I think a lot of the Bulls players are underrated defenders if you think it's all Thibs. Deng, Omer, Taj, Brewer, Watson, Thomas and Noah would be good defenders on any team. The scheme helps a lot when it comes to help and rotations but Thibs couldn't take a team of Kevin Love's and make them a top 10 defensive team.

agreed. deng is the most underrated defensive player out there because the 1st thing people think about him is his contract and nothing else but hes averaging 40 min a night because he pretty much does everything for us including playing great defense the entire 40. thibs loves the guy and i do too :cry: