where do you rank dj among starting pgs (under silas)

[Marvel]

As for being "the man," it's not even necessarily about scoring. It's about being the best player.

So you're in agreement that being the best player isn't just about scoring. Rondo brings that in bunches.

but Paul is what makes his team go.

Rondo is what makes Boston go.

Rondo is just not in the same category. You put one of my Tier 1 PGs on Boston, and they are even better. You replace one of my Tier 1 PGs with Rondo, and their teams are worse. My Tier 1 PGs are complete players that you can legitimately build a team around; you can't say the same for Rondo. That's why they are franchise players, and Rondo is not.

BS. Put it this way, without Rondo, Boston would be 4th - 5th in the East and they certainly wouldn't have advanced to the finals last year with a hobbled KG, along with Pierce playing through injury.

RR IS a player you can build around. He won't give you 20 points a night on 9-21 shooting, not saying he can't, i believe he can it's just not his role on a team loaded with 3 HOFers who provide that. But he'll get the offense flowing, scorers going, rebound, defend, hustle. He won't force anything, he won't jack up 20 shots a game, he'll make the play at the right time.

[Marvel]

Boozer this year is better than Garnett this year,

A 7 game series will decide that.

If it gets that far.

Booze is nowhere near the defensive player KG is. Offensively, Boozer has a higher usage rate than KG in that Bulls offense. So naturally if you were to look at numbers, they'd tell you Boozer is better. KG isn't about numbers, Celtics aren't about numbers, they've sacrificed that to make the Big 3 work/function. They're shooting about the same percentage, KG has the edge on fts.

Remember that 1st game against the Bulls. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201012030BOS.html
KG made Boozer his bit*h.

[DY_nasty]

You guys do realize that Curry's been playing on an ankle that he's rolled 4 times since training camp right?

So you are saying he's injury prone?

In the same way that many players earn the title without merit. After his first severe ankle injury, his team should've allowed (forced) him to sit. Playing hurt on a losing team does nothing other than put fans in the seats and shorten a guy's career. Just look at Wallace - being tough and playing through pain is something he's known for, but at the same time we don't have to strain ourselves imagining how he'd be playing if he wasn't enabled all that time.

In the same way that you can't take too much away from Tyreke Evans as a player for playing hurt all of this season, Curry's situation is similar. IMO, both guys are being done a disservice.

[ohara]

tier one
1. d williams
2. r rondo
3. d rose
4. c paul
5. s nash
6. t parker
7. r westbrook

tier two
8. r felton
9. j kidd
10. c billups

tier three
11. j nelson
12. b jennings
13. d augustin
14. a miller

tier four
15. s curry
16. b davis
17. j wall
18. j holiday
19. d harris
20. j calderon
21. fisher

tier five
22. d collison
23. b udrih
24. r stuckey
25. m conley
26. k lowry
27. m bibby


tier six
arroyo, ridnour, m williams

As of right now, I think BrotherDave is closest to what I think, except John Wall belongs in Tier #3 right along side DJ. He is better than Tier #4.

[Paydro70]

Say what? John Wall is average at best. He's a turnover machine and he shoots sub-.400 (and .300 from 3!). It's not as if he's a floor general, his team is in the bottom 5. So what's the difference between him and Rodney Stuckey?

As for the Rondo thing, he's obviously an odd player to evaluate, especially since he's never been outside of Boston. He's a great defender and distributor, but can you be a "franchise player" when you're a PG who can't shoot 3s or free throws or score more than 10ppg? How do you build a team around someone who can't score? That inflexibility, to me, would prevent him from rating with guys like Nash/Paul/Deron/Rose.

One name that hasn't been said enough here is Westbrook. His statistics are almost identical to Rose's, and while Durant is obviously great, Chicago's overall supporting cast is much better than OKC's.

[BigSlam]

Rondo doesn't have to score in Boston. That's what Pierce, Allen and Garnett are for.

Rondo knows his role and plays to it allowing others to play to theirs - which is a great strength IMO.

[Eoghan]

Rondo is just not in the same category. You put one of my Tier 1 PGs on Boston, and they are even better. You replace one of my Tier 1 PGs with Rondo, and their teams are worse. My Tier 1 PGs are complete players that you can legitimately build a team around; you can't say the same for Rondo. That's why they are franchise players, and Rondo is not.

Saying Rondo isn't a franchise player is like saying JKidd in his prime wasn't a franchise player.

RE: John Wall

He's just too reckless and out of control right now for me to put him in the upper tiers; he'll get there, he just has to figure out how to shift his gears at the NBA level.

[Paydro70]

Rondo doesn't have to score in Boston. That's what Pierce, Allen and Garnett are for.

Rondo knows his role and plays to it allowing others to play to theirs - which is a great strength IMO.

The point is that he can't take on the other role. In particular his inability to hit free throws and jump shots means that he has literally 1 way to score: at the rim. But he can't get fouled, because he misses those. So he can only put the ball in the basket through crazy layups, which are only available because he plays on a team with multiple shooters that the other team has to stay on.

In other words, a team based around Rondo would need to have multiple excellent scorers, which is not the same as the other guys, who can take on the scoring role themselves when needed.

All that said, I suppose I have to agree that he's a franchise player. Kidd proved that a PG who can't score can still be the best player on a finals team.

[thruthefire]

Based on the entire season and with taking recent seasons into consideration, I'll say Augustin is 14th at the least, after Paul, Williams, Westbrook, Rose, Nash, Parker, Rondo, Billups, Miller, Felton, Harris, Curry and Nelson.

Stuckey's a good player, but he's not a point guard, and it looks like T-Mac's running the show in Detroit now.

[W_HAMILTON]

Rondo literally has four HOFers starting alongside him. You put any competent PG in that situation and they are going to look good. A "lockdown" defender at PG does not make a franchise player, and his best asset (his passing) is diminished by the fact that he plays alongside four guys that have all averaged more than 24ppg at one point or another in their careers. BOS is still a very good team without Rondo; Rondo is not only not a franchise player, he's probably much closer to a nobody without his HOFers.

As for the comparisons to Kidd, Kidd took Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Kerry Kittles, and Jason Collins to the NBA Finals. There's a little bit of talent discrepancy between that bunch and what Rondo has on his team. Also, Kidd scored almost 19ppg that season.

As further evidence that Rondo is most likely not a franchise player once removed from his HOFers, teams don't pass up franchise talent 20 times. The true franchise players out there (not the Joe Johnsons and Rajon Rondos of the league) are usually snatched up pretty quickly. Are there any legitimate franchise players out there right now that were not drafted top 10? Kobe and Nash come to mind, but Kobe had extenuating circumstances (if his camp wasn't trying to get him to LAL, he most likely would have gone top 10) and I don't believe Nash is a franchise player any longer. Is there anyone else?

[BigSlam]

Are there any legitimate franchise players out there right now that were not drafted top 10? Kobe and Nash come to mind, but Kobe had extenuating circumstances (if his camp wasn't trying to get him to LAL, he most likely would have gone top 10) and I don't believe Nash is a franchise player any longer. Is there anyone else?

Granger? Crash? Al Jefferson (in Minni)? Ellis?

Amare and Dirk were both 9th selections and Lopez was the 10th?

They are the only ones that spring to my mind.

[W_HAMILTON]

Well that's the problem. If you consider guys like Wallace and Ellis franchise players, then sure, Rondo is probably a franchise player. So are about 45 other players.

Franchise players aren't simply the best players on each team. They are well-rounded players that you can build a successful franchise around, players that can go to any team, in almost any situation, and immediately make that team much better. You take them off their current teams and their teams would become appreciably much worse.

I wouldn't consider Granger, Jefferson, Ellis, or Lopez franchise players.

Dirk? Sure.

Franchise players that immediately come to mind are guys like Nowitski, Duncan, Bryant, Paul, D. Williams, Rose, Anthony, Howard, James, Wade, and Durant. I could be forgetting someone, but I think that is most of them who are RIGHT NOW franchise players.